Breech loading 1450-1550

[CutlassCollector]

Hi Marcus,

As Jim and others have remarked various times, this forum should priorily be reserved to historic and authentic original pieces.

What is even worse in terms of purity and science: the gun shown here is a complete fantasy piece; he only used some influences and features of an existing ca. 1530-35 wheellock mechanism! The shape and style of decoration of the stock is mere fantasy as well, with some similarities to original pieces of ca. 1600 (!) at best, so what he did was producing a crude and cruel mixture of styles combining a span of ca. 70 years in one piece and filling in the gaps with a lot of imagination ... No such original gun did ever exist, and I do do not feel very pleased to see those confusing images in my thread that is on pure originals!

So once again:
Please do stick to originals or do copy them absolutely exactly!

Best,
Michael[/QUOTE]


Hi all,

This is not my area of expertise so please correct me if I'm wrong.
But it looks to me as though this 'fantasy piece' is an 'absolute exact' copy of a wheelock being sold as an antique on a website in the UK! I won't put the direct link as it contains the price but it can be found under:
Antique Guns at gunstar.co.uk.

Regards,
CC

[Raf]

Or as as a coleague remarked does it come with a silencer ?

[Matchlock]

Gunstar is not saying the item is old or original, they just labeled it 'used' (!!!) which makes all the difference!

Best,
m

[CutlassCollector]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Gunstar is not saying the item is old or original, they just labeled it 'used' (!!!) which makes all the difference!

Best,
m

A bit further down it says Antique and along side it - Yes.

It is listed in the Antiques section - so buyer beware I guess.
I don't know about anyone else but if I was buying an antique cutlass I'd be a little upset to find it had been made last week!

CC

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

A bit further down it says Antique and along side it - Yes.

It is listed in the Antiques section - so buyer beware I guess.
I don't know about anyone else but if I was buying an antique cutlass I'd be a little upset to find it had been made last week!

CC

Absolutely: buyer beware!

Thanks anyway,
and best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

I apologise for this mistake, i usually only sell antiques so i probably put this pistol in antique by mistake

I was a bit upset after your words Michael, but i do understand your point. I must admit that the decorations have gone a bit out of control, my first drawing was that of a saxony pistol, similair to those used by the electoral guards of augustus the first etc. Bolek liked this project so much he persuaded me to change the design to something he thought to be a representation of the early 16th century. I do like the design still, but i must admit that this piece is nothing like a real 16th century design. The mechanism however does work flawlesly (it trows a lot of sparks and fires like it should). Most other self spanning wheel locks don't have a large enough rotation to trow sufficient sparks, making them more a decorative piece than a ussuable piece (this is what i learned, but i don't have a library of 3000 books sadly hahaha )

I do like to keep you as a friend ( ) so i placed some other threads with my personal collection below.
I hope you will enjoy them better than the pistol
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17753
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17763
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17547
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17548

[Matchlock]

As our forum can need each and every bit of merchandising, I linked posts #115ff. above to ForgottenWeapons.com, in relation to that ca. 1540 Rotunda breechloading wheellock arquebus I posted here.


Michael
December 5, 2013 at 2:50 am · Reply

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...h+loading+1540


Please see the thread linked here, especially posts #115ff, where I posted, along with two more guns by the same maker, your ca. 1540 breechloading Augsburg wheellock arquebus.

The makers mark, a double-struck falchion flanked by two stars, for Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, appears also on the breech of the finely preserved Berlin arquebus, which additionally bears the date 1540 on both the barrel and the underside of the stock.

And please tell that guy Iain, who presented the gun in the video, that he was telling some rubbish when stating that the wheel was missing, etc.


Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

The item i was talking about in a other thread, my own wheel lock breech loading chamber with pan and pancover.
Also the rifle it belonged to, alas i didn't have 40K in my pocket at the time to buy it
The decoration is the same.

[Matchlock]

Would you please care to give all the exact bibliographic details concerning the book you scanned from? (author, exact title, year of publication, ISBN ...).
Thanks.

Btw, the author's dating of the gun ('2nd half 16th c.') is 100 years out of reality; the piece was made in about 1665-80, which means 2nd half 17th c.. Who is this guy anyway juggling with 100 years as if they were rubber balls?


Best,
m

[Marcus den toom]

The book is actually a auction cattalogue
Czerny's, october 24th&25th 2009 page 566-567

My thoughts exactly, but sadly most auction houses don't have a "Michael" on there payroll

[Matchlock]

Thanks a lot, Marcus, for that superb compliment!


Reality though is as sad as it is true: sales people do not want mercilessly honest, dedicated and competent 'cranks' like me. What they want, and pay for, are their own spectacular descriptions that hopefully (in their view) just do one thing: sell ...

For more than 30 years I have commented on pieces from my range of competence to all the big international auction houses as soon as their latest catalogs have been out. The only ones to ever thank me and include my comments in discussions with possible buyers during visiting hours are - the three London houses Bonhams, Christie's and Tom De Mar (in alphabetical order). So they, in my personal private view, are the most honest ones. They at least try ...


Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

Did Fisscher never do anything with your information? I would be suprised, last time i was in Luzern and visited their auktion they seemed very honest.
My experience with auction is indeed their exstesive ways of convincing buyers of special features on their items. Most of the time you also see that they just copy the text from the previous auction house where the item was sold through.
I always try to track any major purchases down to previous auctions, this will tell you a lot about the different views and time that has passed between 2 sales.

I found this picture on the web, more hackbut barrels and handgonnes but i think it will do nicely in this thread.
These items are in the Belgium national firearms museum in Brussel/Bruxelles.

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,


Thank you for the nice image from the Brussels Koninklijk Leger Museum. Are there any other pictures showing such beautiful stuff where you found it? Could you link that site here, please?

I did some 'photoshoping' to the tiller guns (Stangenbüchsen) of ca. 1430-50, after they had evolved wall hooks..


Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

I found them here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801567...n/photostream/

just as these few
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/indread_coal/223227974/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/indread_coal/223232480/

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

And the ca. 1700 Thurn & Taxis flintlock rifle, re-stocked in the mid 18 th century, together with its original leather collar containing 11 numbered rifled (!) cartridges - with number 12 inserted in the breech.

Michael

Maybe i failed to see this post when it came in.
This rifle is a stupendous example of gunmaking ... art ... not smithing .

.

[Matchlock]

In the Koninklijk Leger Museum (Army Museum, Brussels).

m

[Matchlock]

For two personal wheellock breechloaders of Henry VIII, please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...634#post164634

m

[Maurice]

Swivel-gun / ship's canon.

I made this image in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam a few months ago.

This Dutch cannon was excavated from the reclaimed Haarlemmermeer in the second half of the 19th century.
It may have been used during the Battle of Haarlemmermeer in 1573.
The wooden support on which the cannon is mounted with six wrought-iron bands can swivel on an iron pin, allowing for greater accuracy in shooting at enemy ships.

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much, Maurice,


For this nice and good-quality contribution of yours!

Judging by the short, swamped and rounded muzzle section and the engraved roped frieze at the rear end of the barrel, this piece can be dated be as early as ca. 1510, so it really saw service for quite a long time.


Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Very nice and rather early breech loader, Maurice.
Thanks for sharing

[Maurice]

You're welcome Michael and Fernando!


Not my collectionfield, but I think they're fascinating!

Happy newyear,
Maurice

[Matchlock]

And to you!

Michael

[fernando]

Amen

[Matchlock]

And over!

[Matchlock]

Two detached early-16th century breeches, at the museum of Grandson castle, Switzerland.

m

[Matchlock]

A three-barreled cast-bronze breechloading cannon (now heavily damaged) of Henry VIII, of 1543, at the Tower of London.
The breeches are all missing.

m

[Spiridonov]

Michael, do You have a more qualitative photo of muzzle end of this barrel or high resolution of this photo?

[Matchlock]

Alexender,


I attached the only other image I have of this gun, plus a magnified detail; sorry.

I expect the muzzle to look very similar to that of my 1481 Munich/Passau barrel though, with a bell-shaped mouth (bottom attachments).

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7107



Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

Thank You, Michael! It's enough to understand the shape of the barrel end

[Matchlock]

The iron wedge is also retained.

Found on a dealer's site, labeled 'sold'.


m