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17th January 2016, 03:45 PM | #121 |
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Some of the hilts can with some certainty be pointed to a specific place, but it is not easy and the uncertainty is quite big.
We know that they at Bikaner made hilts for export to other parts of India, but we dont know of it was the same hilt type they made, or if they made the hilts according to the fashion at the place where it was supposed to be sold. |
17th January 2016, 04:02 PM | #122 | |
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If only local court fashion... |
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15th April 2016, 12:36 AM | #123 | |
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15th April 2016, 12:50 AM | #124 |
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The same tradition was in Persia (John Chardin, Travelling to Persia, 1811) as "Rose of Dagger" and the words in Jahangir-name in Urdu have the same meaning. In Persian one I will check and let you know.
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28th April 2016, 10:30 PM | #125 | |
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28th April 2016, 10:51 PM | #126 |
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Thanks a lot for such intolerant communication with me in this topic. Because of this I got to the end of researching in this not very important for me field.
Iranian and Mughal phul-katara: |
28th April 2016, 11:51 PM | #127 | ||
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Taking into account that the above assertion comes from Pant who was citing Chardin, and who prefaced this statement with words " obscure" and "perhaps", the confidence of the above author seems a bit excessive:-))))) Quote:
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29th April 2016, 12:09 AM | #128 |
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It is very nice that in the end you always agree with me in any subject. If still in the middle of the debate you (and not only you) would be more patient we could all learn more. In any case I found out a lot of interesting things from the time of Jahangir and Shah-Jahan so it will be very good article I hope.
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29th April 2016, 12:11 AM | #129 |
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We seem to have heard multiple brilliant, conclusive and mutually-exclusive theories of the origin of "Phul kattara".
Among them a homophony of Hindi "Ful" and Persian " Phulad", allusion to the dried leaves/flowers added to the crucible for wootz manufacture, pommels with flowery figures, gem- studded katars, strings of brilliants attached to daggers etc, etc. Perhaps, the truth is much simpler than that. Flower(y) in a sense of flamboyant? Lavishly decorated? ( My free contribution to your future article) |
29th April 2016, 12:43 AM | #130 | |
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Last edited by Mercenary; 29th April 2016 at 01:51 AM. |
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29th April 2016, 01:08 AM | #131 | |
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Last edited by Mercenary; 29th April 2016 at 01:59 AM. |
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29th April 2016, 02:37 AM | #132 |
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Never have conducted any research project myself and never have witnessed it being done by an accomplished and world - renown researcher, I feel truly privileged to be given an opportunity to participate in your Master Class. I was awed by your virtuosity with languages, your fountains of ideas, and your ability to copy Internet pictures.
Certainly, your paper will make a tremendous splash! PNAS? |
29th April 2016, 04:23 AM | #133 |
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I think the splash will be much greater than that of the "fallen coin" ... It's nice that it is understood
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29th April 2016, 08:01 AM | #134 | |
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29th April 2016, 06:08 PM | #135 | |
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Actually we are all in the same class.....here we learn together!!! Mercenary, looking forward to your paper and hope you will keep us apprised. I congratulate anyone and everyone who puts 'pen to paper' and admire them wholeheartedly. It takes courage and stamina to publish . It has been a most enlightening discussion. |
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29th April 2016, 06:46 PM | #136 | |
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30th April 2016, 05:30 PM | #137 | |
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Our learning here of course often extends beyond knowledge itself. |
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30th April 2016, 06:16 PM | #138 |
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'The most difficult for the researcher is to admit own mistakes.'
No, not really, you just admit them. I have done it, and I will continue to do so. When you write something, it is with the knowledge you have at the moment, but maybe you later find out that it was wrong - so why not admit it? If we admit that we are all in a learnig session, these things will happen - even if some of the members are on a higher level than others, and that it is the members on a higher level, that are the most to make misrtakes - due to the level. However, whichever level one is on, it should not leed to sarchasme towards other members, whichever level they are on. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 30th April 2016 at 09:41 PM. |
17th July 2017, 03:30 PM | #139 |
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Phul-katara
I just found something about the Phul-dagger, or in this case a Phul-katar.
Wheeler M. Thackston: The Jahangirnama, Oxford University Press, 1999. page 469. 'Phul-katara..........phul means 'flower' and refers to ornate jewel-inlay work on the hilt, phul-kataras were mainly ornamental presentation items while ordinary kataras were used as weapons'. By especially mentening jewel-inlay work, must mean that the author does not regard katars with chiselled/inlaid/koftgari floral decoration to this group. |
12th June 2022, 07:31 PM | #140 |
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Sitting in the hotel in Atlanta, waiting for a symposium that starts in 3 hours, re-reading old comments…..
Re. Posts 2,4, 29,123: Ful-kattara is repeatedly snown in Hales ( and, I think, Elgood, but the books are far away from me at the moment) and designates a “flowery dagger”, i.e. just a dagger with a pommel depicting stone-carved bunch of flowers. No firm connection to wootz, jewels, carved blades etc. Last edited by ariel; 12th June 2022 at 07:44 PM. |
13th June 2022, 04:22 PM | #141 |
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I'm sorry, but no chance. This was examined six years ago from the text of Jahangir-name (in Persian of course) and compared with illustrations depicting specific scenes. Almost all types of daggers and court gifts have been identified. Including the "phul katara", "khapwa" and even the "royal Mazendaran dagger".
Last edited by Mercenary; 13th June 2022 at 04:35 PM. |
13th June 2022, 08:28 PM | #142 |
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Well, further arguments seem to be pointless. At the end of the day, we are obligated to accept the interpretations advanced by professional researchers of Indian weapons well versed in Indian and Persian linguistics and with vast and long experience in that field.
I shall take Hales, Elgood and Jens Nordlunde any moment. Of course, other people have a right to stick to their guns and advance novel revolutionary interpretations. But, as my former mentor taught me, the rule #1 of any research is "It is nice to be the "first", but what really counts is to be right". |
13th June 2022, 11:54 PM | #143 |
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I am back home.
Please see Elgood’s Jaipur book, #35-38. I think that closes the question. |
14th June 2022, 01:35 PM | #144 |
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The book of the highly respected Robert Elgood "Arms & Armor: At the Jaipur Court, The Royal Collection", if I'm not mistaken, became available to a wide range of readers in 2016?
Did the Mercenary start this thread in 2015? |
14th June 2022, 03:37 PM | #145 |
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Mahratt,
I am purposefully not commenting on your posts. Please do not comment on mine. Just as an aside, the last communication from Mercenary was posted yesterday, 7 years after the publication of the Jaipur book (2015). Last edited by ariel; 14th June 2022 at 03:51 PM. |
14th June 2022, 04:53 PM | #146 | |
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Thackston is a well known and highly respected authority on Arabic and Persian languages as well on several other languages pertaining to the Islamic cultures. However, he will be the first to admit that weapons as such do not fall into his area of expertise. Elgood is by far the best current authority on Arab and Indo-Persian weapons. But he is very open about his insufficient level of linguistic expertise. Having recognised this shortcoming, he spent many years working shoulder to shoulder with professional Indian and Persian linguists. This is why I put my trust in his conclusions. And I fully agree with Jens: research is a risky business and wrong turns are inevitable. That is exactly why good professional researchers are very careful about their final conclusions, scour the literature and perform many control studies aimed at overturning their initial hypothesis. Only if the latter fail to negate their earlier results do they publish the final paper with conclusions. And if some colleague later on finds a way to disprove their conclusions, they freely admit it bruised egos notwithstanding. |
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14th June 2022, 05:28 PM | #147 |
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14th June 2022, 06:58 PM | #148 | |
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I deliberately didn't quote your post. You are not the only one discussing this topic on this forum. So don't assume that I'm talking to you. |
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14th June 2022, 07:08 PM | #149 |
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14th June 2022, 07:18 PM | #150 |
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Can anyone tell me where the PDF of Robert Elgood's book "Arms & Armour: At the Jaipur Court the Royal Collection" is posted on the Internet? Thanks in advance!
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