True Combat Value of Wootz

[Lee]

The old Norse had their sagas, verbally handed down, as did most traditional cultures. Our technology gives us CGI enhanced motion pictures and television. In my opinion, the heroic, exaggerated content is the same as always, only the technology has been updated. And I am sure that to have heard one of these tales very well told while sitting around the fire on a cold night then was as much a thrill for my ancestors as that excitement which I experience occasionally at the theater.

[Chris Evans]

Folks,

When attempting to assess extraordinary cutting feats with swords, disregarding the attributes of the steel for a moment, we also have to consider the energy input required to make the cut.

To put it into simple terms: When felling green timber, the quality of the steel from which the axe is made is not all that critical, yet nobody would expect to cut through a smallish tree in a single stroke. Why not? Because the energy required exceeds that which even the most powerful swing can generate - And even if such a mighty lumberman did exists, the handle of the axe would fail.

Now, we have to remember that energy is required not only for the shearing of whatever is being cut, but also to displace the already cut material sideways, so that the thicker shouder of the blade can penetrates, not just its edge. Just what a considerable drain on energy this can be, is best illustrated when cutting with a sword into a large block of moist potters clay. The hardness/toughness/sharpness of the blade in this instance is comparatively insignificant, yet the blade will come to a halt after only a few inches of penetration. The energy of the sword is dissipated by the effort required to displace the cut clay and the friction that the flat of the blade encounters.

I imagine that cleaving through a human body clad in armour, even light armour, will require more energy than what can be delivered by even the mightiest sword arm - Never mind the hilt standing up to the task.


There is a often quoted story from the Napoleonic wars in which a Brit cavalryman cleaved a Frenchmans head, cutting right through his helmet, which I believe was made from brass. But despite that he was using the famous 1796 pattern sabre, and steel quality was not an issue, the cut only reached the victim's jaws, or thereabouts.

I think that extraordinary sword feats from the distant past parallel those of the old archers. Feats that when subjected to mechanical analysis, do not stack up all that well.

Cheers
Chris

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Now, we have to remember that energy is required not only for the shearing of whatever is being cut, but also to displace the already cut material sideways, so that the thicker shouder of the blade can penetrates, not just its edge. ...OMISSIS... The energy of the sword is dissipated by the effort required to displace the cut clay and the friction that the flat of the blade encounters.

So true that the japaneses polishes their blade from back to edge and by hand instead of from handle to point with wheel-grinders as most of other cultures. In this way they create the Niku (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/niku.htm)
that helps to displace the already cut material sideway. The way to perform the cut is also important, as well as the weight of the blade, a detail undervalued by many wannabe experts.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Carlo,

Originally Posted by tsubame1

So true that the japaneses polishes their blade from back to edge and by hand instead of from handle to point with wheel-grinders as most of other cultures. In this way they create the Niku (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/niku.htm)
that helps to displace the already cut material sideway. The way to perform the cut is also important, as well as the weight of the blade, a detail undervalued by many wannabe experts.

Absolutely so.

I don't know if you came across this article:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/artsguerrier...abrekatana.htm

Unfortunately it is in French, but can be translated with Alta Vista's Babelfish. Makes for very interesting reading. I suspect that the sabre in question must have been an experimental one, because all the 19th century military sabres that I have seen, had edge geometries very similar to that of Japanese swords.

Deep fullers can reduce the friction encountered, but that to me is something of an overstated argument because on sabres, the COP usually falls right where the fuller ends.

Here are some measurements that I have made on two of my sabres:

Ames 1862 :Edge angle at COP: 22deg At 3"from pt 17.68deg Blade thickness at COP 5.5mm and 3"from pt 3.5mm

Brit 1854 :Edge angle at COP: 23.53deg At 3"from pt:20.6deg. Blade thickness at COP 5mm and at 3"from pt 4mm

Perhaps you could tell us how these geometries compare with that of Japanese blades. Unfortunately, I do not have one at the moment.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Carlo and Folks,

Sorry about that link, but it seems to have gone dead.

It was the story of a French soldier, a keen sabreur and advocate of the cut, who whilst in Japan in the late 19th century compared his sabre against the native sword. In test cutting, he claimed to outdo the Japanese on account of his swords better edge geometry - No, he did not cut into helmets.

Whilst no doubt a thin foible on a sword adds up to deeper penetration, the sweet spot around the COP is reduced and the blade can be ruined much more easily with a less than expert cut.

That article is probably obtainable from another website, so I'll start looking.

Cheers
Chris

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Carlo,



Absolutely so.

I don't know if you came across this article:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/artsguerrier...abrekatana.htm

Unfortunately it is in French, but can be translated with Alta Vista's Babelfish. Makes for very interesting reading. I suspect that the sabre in question must have been an experimental one, because all the 19th century military sabres that I have seen, had edge geometries very similar to that of Japanese swords.

Deep fullers can reduce the friction encountered, but that to me is something of an overstated argument because on sabres, the COP usually falls right where the fuller ends.

Here are some measurements that I have made on two of my sabres:

Ames 1862 :Edge angle at COP: 22deg At 3"from pt 17.68deg Blade thickness at COP 5.5mm and 3"from pt 3.5mm

Brit 1854 :Edge angle at COP: 23.53deg At 3"from pt:20.6deg. Blade thickness at COP 5mm and at 3"from pt 4mm

Perhaps you could tell us how these geometries compare with that of Japanese blades. Unfortunately, I do not have one at the moment.

Cheers
Chris

It's hard to me to give edge angles due to the above mentioned Niku that offers a curved surface to measure. Kasane (spine thickness) on many of either my long blades and/or which I've access to and/or in my files is in that range at COP, a bit less tapering toward the point. Mihaba (width) is crucial and very variable too. Anyway I'm not sure the different processes of making (mass versus custom) can give us a good comparison between the two.
Military swords, being subjected to standardization, are by far easier to
compare (type versus type) then blades made to tightly fit the needs of a specific man, not to talk about difference in tall between europeans and japaneses and avoiding the nightmare of the different smithing schools.
Japanese long blades had only a top-lenght standardization in Edo, every weight or thickness or width allowed as far as it was functional, so it can vary a lot and the homogeneity is only apparent, IMHO. Same for curvature. Another difference is that fullers (Hi) in japanese weapons most of the times passes the COP and its positive/negative phisical action versus the gain in weight is highly debated by Tameshigiri (cutting) practicioners.

[ariel]

The "viscosity" of the material is one thing. But my question is somewhat different: what about cutting hard steel? Of course, there is the issue of lateral displacement and mechanical engineers among us can easily calculate the proportion of energy going laterally in a wedge.
But there is also an issue of hardness and resiliency: can one reasonably expect a superb wootz sword to cut through a substantial steel gun chain several times without being broken? Even a minute angle of contact would redistribute the energy to shatter the blade. Similarly, while we see old steel mails with cuts ( and we do not know whether these were done by an axe), can we expect a wootz blade slice through multiple, hardened rings to effect a " total body" cut?
My suspicion is that there is much more than the quality of steel in the final effect. Also, wootz might have been much keener than regular steel, but it was of no advantage when dealing with real life objects.

[Jeff Pringle]

Also, wootz might have been much keener than regular steel, but it was of no advantage when dealing with real life objects.

Yes, it would just mean you would not have to sharpen it as often - that may have been the most obvious practical effect of wootz' superiority as a steel in it's era.
I've only seen analyses of early medaeval european mail, but those show iron, not steel for the link material.

[Gt Obach]

also...... chain was usually made of wrought iron.. ... and this is a soft metal.... i really doubt that steel was used for this at this time.. ( big difference )

with a decent blade... you can cut into mild iron without much problem... i've done it several times... actually..... in the forge i have a cold cut that i use weekly to cut 1/2 mild rounds..... and rarely have to dress the edge...

i realize that not everyone deals with this daily basis... but a properly heat treated piece of steel with good edge geometry should have no problem with mild iron or wrought iron..


on cutting....... theres also a big difference between a chopping cut and a draw cut...... with a draw cut......distal taper has a big effect when pulling the blade through the target... .... aswell as adding to a swords ability to resist bending in a local area

Greg

[Gt Obach]

actually... if you do a search you can find plenty on wrought iron chain... .... -wrought iron being iron made by a reduction process in a bloom furnance... ... - a spongy bloom of iron and silicate slag is produced..... this is then folded and forge welded many times... to squeeze out some of the silicate slags.... and evenly spread out the remaining stringers....

the low grade has lots of large stringers... and used for stuff like wagon wheels...
-- if you fold the lower grade many more times.....it becomes more homogenous .... and this is what you would use for chain..... still today... if you want some high grade wrought for knife fittings... you still can get this will large boat or anchor chains.....

-- and it is soft... very little carbon in it.... and not hardenable (unless altered) ..... corrosion resistant, and tough, fiberous, .... very desirable for its easy forge welding

both of my peter wright anvils have a wrought iron body and a steel plate for the face... and its only a 100 years old... .. so wrought was still used for a long time


Greg

[Chris Evans]

ariel,

I ask if you would be surprised if a chisel would cut through the said chain/armour. I think that the safe answer is no. Then why not?

Because a chisel's edge has a different geometry, more obtuse, AND because several hammer blows can impart the required energy - One just keeps on hammering until the cut is effected.

Of course, such edge geometry, except on a very specialized sword, would not do at all for an all purpose weapon. And then a single cut is unlikely to have sufficient energy to finish the job.

I have a utility knife that I made from a high speed alloy tools steel blade. Hard as hell and full of carbides (can barely sharpen it) . When a saw, it used to cut steel bars. Once, for an experiment I tried to cut a small, around 1mm dia, nail with it and the edge started to nick. Why? because its low angle edge could not support the load imposed on it. Cuts fine otherwise, but not nails. The steel is the same, but the edge geometry has changed.



GT Obach: A small comment on wrought iron chain

You are spot in your remarks. I just would like to add, that those slag inclusions in wrought iron chain are highly desirable because they act as crack arrestors. This and its superior corrosion resistance is why wrought iron is the preferred metal for ship's anchor chain - Very tough and shock absorbent, yet soft, malleable and easily hammer welded.

Cheers
Chris

[ariel]

So, Chris and Greg, as the most knowledgeable "metal" people around, here is the question to summarize all questions: is there a real practical, combat advantage of wootz over a good steel? I am not talking about super-duper modern steels , but want to compare apples to apples: take a 17-18th century wootz shamshir or khanda (made by the best masters of the time)and pit it against best contemporary European blades.

Assuming the task set for all of them is not a show-y handkercief cutting, but a real battle use by competent cavalry men, will there be an appreciable difference in performance? What advantages or disadvantages would you predict for each?

[Chris Evans]

ariel,

Originally Posted by ariel

So, Chris and Greg, as the most knowledgeable "metal" people around, here is the question to summarize all questions: is there a real practical, combat advantage of wootz over a good steel? I am not talking about super-duper modern steels , but want to compare apples to apples: take a 17-18th century wootz shamshir or khanda (made by the best masters of the time)and pit it against best contemporary European blades.

Assuming the task set for all of them is not a show-y handkercief cutting, but a real battle use by competent cavalry men, will there be an appreciable difference in performance? What advantages or disadvantages would you predict for each?

Like I said at the outset, I never had the opportunity to examine wootz. All I know about it is what has been published here and there and from learned reports from people like Ann, who is the real expert on this metal here.

Trying to extract a black and white judgement out of metallurgists on a subject like this, is like pulling the proverbial hen's teeth. As opposed to laymen, we are aware of too many variables that can have an effect and as such we are reluctant to commit ourselves. With that said, in my student days, almost half a century ago ( Blast - just gave the game away!), wootz was often mentioned as an early example of a superior steel that was held in extraordinarily high regard in Europe.

Disclaimer: I am writing this on the run, and could easily have left something out, so please don't shoot - OK?

If you truly were comparing apples with apples, then you would take the sword out of the mix and just compare a large number of test specimens, so as to be representative of what could be expected on average, made from wootz and Euro steel from a given time frame (worked/heat treated to the degree that it would be in the sword) and test it for:

a) Hardness (macro and micro);
b) Tensile strength;
c) Impact (Charpy/Izod);
d) Establish the brittle trans temp;
e) Hardenability
f) Chemical analysis:

These would give you the basic properties -Then, you would have to do additional tests to see which of the steels is easier to forge or shape, and which is more unforgiving of its heat treatment.

With all that out of the way, you would then have to relate all this information to the sword's design and intended application, and most importantly to the availability of a skilled workforce.

For example, a purely thrusting sword, such as a smallsword, is only expected to be a decent spring and not snap if flexed. The point does not require any out of the ordinary qualities. If however, the sword is of a lightish cut type, then the plot thickens, depending on what you intended to cut into: Military uniforms, semi naked tribal warriors in Africa or Asian armour.

My own gut feeling tells me that the variability of the steels of the olden days was so great, that on the whole, wootz was probably the better steel to start out with, though I hasten to add that it could be easily ruined during forging. So I'll stick my neck right out and take a chance: In all probability, the very best wootz swords were better than the very best Euro equivalents, though this did not necessarily translate into a military advantage. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and the same applies to armies. The best cavalry sword is little use if you cannot secure large supplies at an affordable price, and if there is a shortage of horses, then you climbed the wrong tree.

To my mind, the whole secret of the unparalleled success of Europe in war, is attributable to a general disregard for excellence and instead a more pragmatic concern for the lowest common denominator, which was better than of her rivals.

I hope that I have not muddied the waters too much.

Cheers
Chris

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...OMISSIS...which is more unforgiving of its heat treatment.

With all that out of the way, you would then have to relate all this information to the sword's design and intended application, and most importantly to the availability of a skilled workforce. ...OMISSIS..., though I hasten to add that it could be easily ruined during forging.

I agree, because these considerations bring up again that a steel is as good as the smith is able to make it so. Wootz and middle eastern smiths were a mix that together made extraordinary works. The best wootz in the hands of an unskilled (with THAT steel) smith gives for sure a bad result.

As discussing about cutting heavy chains, men in full armor and gun barrels or birds feathers I'm under the STRONG impression it is only a way to dismiss wootz. These are obviously exagaggerations, hypes that ALL and EVERY culture had in its heritage.
There is no way to say from armchair or on a gym-based fencing knowledge if wootz cuts better then eurosteel and/or if it was a merely eye-candy.
A deep comparative analysis of the contents of the steels can give us
an idea about the components and properties of the steel, but NOBODY can
talk about the smiths skillfullness without having cut with such weapons.
If you wantn't rely on historical (???) accounts you should make your own database.
Japaneses had made their own cutting experiments even destroying very
valuable weapons (see picture/captions below, a hundred thousand dollars today...) to test reliability of swords under every aspect (the picture refers to -60° C tests for brittleness in the '30, good for another topic elsewhere here, I believe).
Want to say if a great wootz blade cuts better then a great euro one ?
This forum has plentiful supply of antique dealers. Buy a bunch of swords
of both type, learn how to correctly use them and try on a historically correct target (the target topic only would request a lot of study). There is no other way to have definitive evidences. Everthing other are armchair speculations.

Test by Omura Kunitaro
Reference:
Nagoya Shinbun, Nagoya Shinbunsha, February, Showa 12
Shumi no Token Kenmasube, Omura Kunitaro, May, Showa 8
Nihonto no Kantei to Kenma, Omura Kunitaro and Fukunaga Suiken, June 1st, Showa 50.

1) Norimitsu katana, ni-ji mei, Sue Bizen kazu uchi mono, bent upon a single cut. (This blade was the first tested and it was at normal room temperature )
2) Norimitsu katana, (Blade from test 1) After it was conditioned to -60 ° C, it was broken when struck.
3) Tadamitsu katana, Bishu Osafune Tadamitsu, Meiou 3rd year 2 month day, a well made sword with horimono, conditioned under -60 ° C, broken when struck.
4) Masaiye tanto signed Mihara ju Masaiye, era Choroku , conditioned under -60 ° C, bent and large ha-gire when struck.
5) Yamato-mono katana, mumei, Oei period, conditioned under -60 ° C, bent and large ha-gire when struck.
6) Muramasa tanto, mumei, 2nd generation, conditioned under -60 ° C, bent when struck.
7) Mino-mono wakizashi, mumei, Oei period, conditioned under -60 ° C, bent when struck.
8) Morimasa wakizashi, Bishu Osafune Morimasa, Oei 21 year 2 month day, conditioned under -60 ° C, big and deep shinae occurred on the ji when struck.
9) Mihara-mono katana, mumei, Tenbun period, conditioned under -10 ° C bent with three large ha-gire when struck. One of these ha-gire caused the blade to break.
10) Sue Shimada-mono tanto, mumei, conditioned under -60 ° C broken when struck.
11) Shinto Seki mono, mumei, heavy and thick tanto, conditioned under -15 ° C broken, one big mune gire and three ha-gire when struck.
12) Signed and dated gendai tanto, by Toukoto in mid autumn of Showa 11, modern steel alloy of Tungsten and Molybdenum, conditioned under -60 ° C bent when struck.

[Jeff Pringle]

Buy a bunch of swords of both type, learn how to correctly use them and try on a historically correct target (the target topic only would request a lot of study). There is no other way to have definitive evidences.

Now that's a great idea, and sounds like good fun as well.
Not the only way to have a good idea of wootz's value, though - you could try to convince one of the few smiths making wootz today to do 2 identical blades, one in wootz and one in steel made from bloomery metal, and do empirical tests. (edit - even better, have him make charpy bars and really get quantifiable )
One way would require a lot of swords to even out the effects of different edge geometry, heat treatments, etc., the other is suspect 'cause it's just one datum, but either would get you closer to the answer.

[ariel]

Carlo,
All of us are armchair specialists, yourself included (no offence). The age of chivalry is gone, swords are obsolete as weapons and nobody's life depends on the quality of his Katana, Shamshir or Shashka. Some of us still want to feel a small fraction of the thrill of sword wielding and cut empty Coke bottles, styrofoam noodles or green bamboo stalks in what they think is a "keeping of tradition". My kids, when they were little, fought dandelions in the backyard with plastic swords ( I did the same when I was their age ), and I see very little difference in the motivation and the enthusiasm of a 5 year-old with a sword from Toy-R-US in a backyard and a 40 year-old with a custom-made katana in a Dojo. Neither should be embarrassed in the least.
It's just a game, no more.

I would view practical tests that you suggest using an Assadollah's Shamshir or Masamune's Katana as acts of vandalism, akin to testing the durability of Rafael's paints by pouring acid on the canvas. This thread was about examining legends of wootz swords possessing almost magical qualities. We can use contemporary knowledge of metallurgy and what little actual info we have. The old accounts of incredible cutting feats seem to be exaggerated ( as Lee wisely mentioned, they are seen in all cultures, in all times, and are best suited to campfire chats).
We shall never (hopefully!) be so dumb as to plan any practical tests. The money you mentioned is only a minor factor: it is the destruction of the object of art that would hopefully stop us from committing the folly.

Until then, let kids behead dandelions, grown men pretend being samurai or vikings, metalworkers make better and better blades , with Kirk, without Kirk, this hardness, that resilience to cold temperatures, and then all of us can sit in our comfy armchairs with a glass of Grappa or beer and swap stories.

[ariel]

BTW, here is an example of what can happen to wootz.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0731&rd=1&rd=1
Look at the very first picture: very big area of delamination.

[katana]

Originally Posted by ariel

BTW, here is an example of what can happen to wootz.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0731&rd=1&rd=1
Look at the very first picture: very big area of delamination.

Hi Ariel, is this the area you are referring to....?

[S.Al-Anizi]

That seems like a fatigued edge.

[ariel]

That's the one.
BTW, whose signature is in the cartouche?
Another Assadollah?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by ariel

Carlo,
All of us are armchair specialists, yourself included (no offence).

Yes, the problem is that I wantn't to seem anything more than this.

Originally Posted by ariel

Some of us still want to feel a small fraction of the thrill of sword wielding and cut empty Coke bottles, styrofoam noodles or green bamboo stalks in what they think is a "keeping of tradition". My kids, when they were little, fought dandelions in the backyard with plastic swords ( I did the same when I was their age ), and I see very little difference in the motivation and the enthusiasm of a 5 year-old with a sword from Toy-R-US in a backyard and a 40 year-old with a custom-made katana in a Dojo. Neither should be embarrassed in the least.
It's just a game, no more.

Correct. "The difference between a man and a child is the price of the toys..."

Originally Posted by ariel

I would view practical tests that you suggest using an Assadollah's Shamshir or Masamune's Katana as acts of vandalism,

For sure. I'm still in pain thinking at that Muramasa Tanto in my previous pics.
But it was militarism and trianny that leadd to suc a moronish usage not
the nedd for knowledge.
Artzi will never give you an Assadollah for such a test, for sure, no matter how much you're friends...

I prefer sakè rather then grappa. Chill and preferably by Ozeki factory (it's dry...)

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by ariel

BTW, here is an example of what can happen to wootz.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0731&rd=1&rd=1
Look at the very first picture: very big area of delamination.

EDIT : I've realized that we're not talking about NihonTo. Ariel are you sure Wootz delaminate ? It's contrary about what I know about it.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by ariel

That's the one.
BTW, whose signature is in the cartouche?
Another Assadollah?

Looks like an old weld repair to a chip, probably from cutting cannon barrels .

Jeff

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

you could try to convince one of the few smiths making wootz today to do 2 identical blades, one in wootz and one in steel made from bloomery metal, and do empirical tests. (edit - even better, have him make charpy bars and really get quantifiable )
One way would require a lot of swords to even out the effects of different edge geometry, heat treatments, etc., the other is suspect 'cause it's just one datum, but either would get you closer to the answer.

By FAAAR a better idea than mine...

Strange that no such a smith posts here...

[ariel]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

By FAAAR a better idea than mine...

Strange that no such a smith posts here...

Provided we can be certain that the contemporary wootz is identical to the original one, and, as far as I know, this is a very uncertain area. The best reviews of modern wootz sound like "... looks very similar in structure and appearance..."
BTW, in one of your earlier posts there was a picture of a helmet cutting test. Was the helmet real? Having seen that pic as well as the horror of "Sword testing", I seem to begin changing my opinion about Japanese reverence for their cultural objects
As for yor drinking taste, I am disappointed... I am giving you a way out: try Peruvian Pisco: it's their version of Grappa, but the grapes are different.
One glass and you look like that...

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by ariel

Provided we can be certain that the contemporary wootz is identical to the original one, and, as far as I know, this is a very uncertain area. The best reviews of modern wootz sound like "... looks very similar in structure and appearance..."
BTW, in one of your earlier posts there was a picture of a helmet cutting test. Was the helmet real? Having seen that pic as well as the horror of "Sword testing", I seem to begin changing my opinion about Japanese reverence for their cultural objects
As for yor drinking taste, I am disappointed... I am giving you a way out: try Peruvian Pisco: it's their version of Grappa, but the grapes are different.
One glass and you look like that...

mmm.. Are the dimensions of that c*ck related to the reason you know Pisco ?
if it makes such a magic i've to try it.

Still waiting your explanation about how the heck wootz steel can delaminate...

[Gt Obach]

Hi

yes wootz has some odd fissures at times...... they can arise from many reasons... from air bubbles (that why you try to keep the top of the ingot for the back of the blade )... -- maybe some slag inclusion ---- or working the ingot too hot.....-- may also have some uneven distribution of elements..aswell

wootz does align in sheets.... but they are not like patternwelded blades....there is no weld boundaries.... so delamination is an awkward term for this.... and besides it shouldn't keep shearing appart....


as i like the question... was wootz combat worthy.... i did some tests today...

got out my last piece of wrought iron... a piece of flat bar... 3/16 thick... and used one of my wootz blades to test.....

i held the WI ontop of a large 190lbs piece of steel i have sitting in the forge..... i struck it many times.... with a very large wind up... .. and on one chop i actually cut the bar in half...
-- keep in mind that i can hammer things quite hard as i do enough smithing

as i have done far more stressful tests on my blades.....i wasn't worried about doing this to one of my knives....

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture004.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture005.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture008.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture009.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Picture011.jpg


so far..... the blade did have some damaged..... as you can see some of the etch was removed... (which i can easily redue )..... there is only a little chip that can be felt when running your finger nail on the edge..... but very hard to see........ this happened when i chopped through the wrought iron bar and into the corner of the steel underneath...... but i can redress this edge without worry...

the knife is 1/8 inch thick and inch and half wide......

actually i was shocked that there was a minute bit of damage.... it does tell me that i should maybe temper a little bit higher...... but thats it...... as i've done this test many times before with mild iron and 1/4 plate

the blade is my wootz type crucible steel... as it does come very close to the Indian style watering

now........ does this end the question...... i don't think so.... as this is a modern creation by me...... i can only stand by my word and hammer...

but it does tell you that i'm not scared of any turkish cannon chain..

[ariel]

Greg,
This is remarkable! The most honest test I've heard of so far!
Can you repeat it with an equivalent of a European sword blade?
From now on, you can proudly carry a title " Assadollah Wisconsini"
And the Turks better beware: if you get any better, you will start slashing through cannon barrels

[Gt Obach]

thanks

i should mention abit about the blade..... the ingot was designed to be 1.5% carbon...... and it was quenched into oil to harden.... ... and tempered twice in an oven to toughen it....
-- also the air temperature yesterday was about 10 celsius

- and i also did several small chops before the two large ones... you can see several v grooves at the top about 1/4 inch deep (sorry for bad photos )
- two large chops.... my accuracy went off on the first one.... and i chopped a piece off the end of the bar which flew into some corner of the shop...??? ... it slipped abit with the tongs i used to hold the Wrought iron... but second shot was on the mark

-- i would not expect an air quenched wootz to do the same..... as its edge will have different characteristics...... ... so becareful if you decide to test a blade on a cannon chain and end up with an impacted edge..

yes.. a euro blade would be a good test aswell.... i'll see what i can come up with for a some what similar steel ....
-- my guess is that it would also hold up quite well !

Greg

[Rivkin]

I have no problem with wootz cutting iron, nor with "simple" steel cutting iron - remember eisenhower, gurda marks, which to some extent precisely mean - cuts through iron. Now here comes my difference from Jim - he would cite you all the literature, but I am lazy, so I want :
These marks probably appear around XVIIth century, and probably "cut an iron nail" test becomes a standard perfomance test sometime around this date.

Now, after reading about 15 different middle eastern authors and western travelers on middle eastern warfare, I find interesting pattern: western swords, specifically those sold by supposedly vikings to the middle east are highly praised for their quality, something until XIIIth century. Then you start seeing things that suggest that they are of not highest quality (like an edict requiring prosecution of masters who make "frankish"-like swords, but selling them as "damascus", extensive praise for hindu swords, with also extensive reference to their beauty, and, sometimes - directly to their fighting qualities (even though it is often said that such swords are "hard" and good to cut this, and such swords are soft and they are better in cutting that) starts to be applied consistently.

Now, we know quite a few western swords from before XIVth century used in the Middle East (Alexandria arsenal may be not the best example). But I checked numerous accounts of traders to Safavid Persia - not a single one was importing swords.
But then in early XVIIIth century we see that western swords reappear again.

However it can all be explained not only by variations in western vs. eastern swords qualities but also by the dynamics of trade routs and differences between western and eastern use of swords (popularity of slashing etc.).