A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting rebuttal, so I think at this impasse the discussion has reached its level of useful exchange. I have very much enjoyed the information which has been exchanged since reopening this old thread, and from all of this we can see where continued research might present better understanding of the issues at hand in resolving these questions. Thank you.

[Ian]

Jim has suggested, very reasonably, that the present discussion has reached an impasse. The original title of this thread seems very apt. An odd recent discussion indeed.

Unless someone has a different line of discussion, it’s time to let this thread return to the archives.

Ian

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Ian.
Jens

[Victrix]

And just when we had Comrade Lenin on-line...

[ariel]

This is not yet another focused note on katars, Zirah Bouks and the armor.
Just some musings on the origins of some terminology mentioned in this thread.

Let’s trace the word “ ordynka”, a Tatar/ Polish saber.
The entire word as we know it, is Polish and can be roughly translated as “ of Orda origin” .
The word “orda” is Turkic, meaning Army. In Turkey proper it sounds orta: remember different services of the Janissary corps ( not to confuse with corpse!)

In Slavic languages it was written and pronounced as ... you guess: Orda, but in Western Europe it mutated into Horde , and somehow started to define a very large, wild, barbaric and very malicious warlike force. Which is historically incorrect, because the original Orda encountered by the West Europeans, I.e. the Mongol army, was no less well-organized and disciplined than the Roman or Victorian one. The Orda that subjugated Russia and went as far as the Adriatic coast was the so-called Golden Horde, part of Ulus Juchi, I.e. Juchi’s Fiefdom..
It included the Crimea and nearby areas of the Ukraine, and Crimean Khans regularly invaded Russian dukedoms and occasionally served for the Polish-Lithuanian kingdom. Part of them even settled in what now is Belarus, Lithuania and Poland proper . From them, their saber came to the Polish armamentarium and acquired the Polish name. As a matter of fact Russian language contains enormous number of Tatar words and their derivatives, the patrimony of peacefully living under the so-called “Mongol yoke” for more than 3 centuries.


But the Mongolian influence spread far away in a different direction , with the Babur invasion into the NW India. Originally, the language of it was called Hindustani. Then, the division between the Muslim ( largely ethnic Turkic Uzbek) and the Hindu populations divided it into Hindi and Urdu . The only difference between them is the alphabet, with NW Muslim India ( now largely Pakistan) adopting Perso-Arabic one, while the rest largely stuck with Sanskritic one. And the name of the NW Hindustani became Urdu: from the same Proto-Uzbek Turkic dialect ( Chagatai language) that gave us the word Orda: army language. In fact, both speaking Hindi and Urdu are virtually identical: my Indian and Pakistani colleagues freely speak to each other without any problems. But Urdu brought in some Persianized and Chagatai words and has several specific ( although barely perceptible) sounds. This is why Urdu alphabet contains 39 basic letters ( and additional 19 secondary ones), whereas Arabic manages quite nicely with only 28 and Persian with 32.

This is how Mongol army became responsible for the languages spreading from Eastern Europe to the Indian subcontinent. Not a miracle : about 10% of men currently living in what used to be the mighty Mongol Empire have the genetic imprint of a single progenitor. Likely, Chingiz Khan himself. The guy was rather busy:-) And just to think of it: no Viagra.

[Funkmachine7]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The use of mail prevailed in archaic situations into the 20th century (Khevsurs ) and through the 19th (in Egypt with the Khedive's 'iron men') and across the Sahara in Bornu and with many tribal groups. In most cases, it was readily discarded as the dramatically increased wounding from bullets were obvious incentive to do so.

Here is if (i've got the uploading thing to work properly ) on the mail shirts made for Khedive's Zirkhagi, by the Wilkinson Sword Company in a around 1880.
You'll note that is made of split rings, a
The armour did against guns prove to be " proved worse than useless" with the brittle rings shattereing which caused appalling wounds.
(A similar problem to the mail veils on WW1 tankers anti-spall masks.)

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Funkmachine7

Here is if (i've got the uploading thing to work properly ) on the mail shirts made for Khedive's Zirkhagi, by the Wilkinson Sword Company in a around 1880.
You'll note that is made of split rings, a
The armour did against guns prove to be " proved worse than useless" with the brittle rings shattereing which caused appalling wounds.
(A similar problem to the mail veils on WW1 tankers anti-spall masks.)

Thank you so much for posting this!! It is rare to see an actual example of the British made mail made for the Khedive's 'iron men'. It seems that Arkell wrote a paper on mail making in the Sudan and they did learn how to produce their own in degree, but as noted, with firearms the wounding potential was enhanced by the mail itself shattering.

It would be interesting to start a new thread on this topic, as well as some of the unusual armor and helmets etc. used in the Sudan and Sahara.

One of the intriguing fascinations of the European forces and travelers who went to these North African regions was the anachronistic appearance of the 'natives' who seem to have existed right out of the crusades into then modern times. Actually it seems that the Mamluks had a great deal to do with the appearance of mail and broadswords in these regions, and while they were overtaken of course by Ottomans their descendants diffused and remained throughout areas in Sudan and elsewhere.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I must say like B.I. did years ago - A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I must say like B.I. did years ago - A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

Those were the good ole days!