The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 9th December 2007, 06:45 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Jeff, thank you so much for joining us here! Your suggestion on the 'S' on the rapier blade is absolutely not 'too' obvious. I really dont consider anything in that category, as too often the case of not being able to see the forest for the trees comes into play.
"...discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, and thinking what no one else has thought".
-Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893-1986)

While I cannot say this is the case here, I think it is worth considering and definitely think we should review instances of this 'S' occurring on blades and see what can be found. It should be noted that there were prominant Spanish smiths and marks such as 'Sebastian' (which appears singularly on one obviously German blade 17th c. and the 'Sahagun' which also occurs without secondary name).

Thank you again Jeff, excellent entry! Let's see what we can find

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 12th December 2007, 02:52 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I regret not having been able to help feeding this vital thread some further. Museums don't allow for pictures, and book authors don't respond to query emails .
I can only refer to two more examples inventoried in the Viscount of Pindela collection, which is now partly exhibited at the Palace of the Dukes of Bragança, in Guimarães ... with a rope keeping the visitors at distance
One of them, item #70 of the book, a XVIII century cast brass hilt sword with later engraving works, with a curved blade, has in both sides the following inscription:
X EN XX MENÊ XX
In the end of the inscription there is a symbol, naturaly the maker's punction, which represents an anchor, with its top decorated in cross ... as per the book quotation.
The other one, item #73 of the book, a XVIII century sword, with a cofin shaped pommel. The blade, narrow but elegant, has a little fuller and, inside it, in both sides, in major font, the following legend:
" IHN " MINI "

I have emailed the Author of "As Armas e os Barões", asking him to clarify his definition of "fear of God", concerning the legend IN MENE in a sword contained in his book, but i had no answer up to now.

I know the above isn't much; i just hope it's better than nothing

All the best
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 12th December 2007, 11:03 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend?

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 13th December 2007, 06:05 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jeff and Fernando,
Its good to have you guys back at it here!!
Jeff, you may have something there. While the 'anchor' seems inclined to the Spanish blades, and as you note, the cross and orb seem aligned with the Solingen blades...what is puzzling is the anchors on the German blades with spurious Spanish signatures and inscriptions. Conversely, I dont think the orb and cross occurs on Spanish or Portuguese blades does it?

Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. As far as I can find, the word 'mene' seems to have connections to a Biblical allegory in the Book of Daniel, and has to do with the foretelling of the fall of Babylon in the appearance of mysterious symbols on the kings wall. The term 'mene' is interpreted by Daniel to mean that God had numbered the days of his kingdom. Is has been discovered that the term also represented a monetary value, but that has been explained allegorically to note the number interpretation.
This story has led to the well known phrase, "the writing is on the wall" and possibly the inscription has some similar meaning i.e. your days are numbered or something on these lines. Perhaps the rather morose theme of the sword with the coffin shaped pommel corresponded with the inscription?

On the one blade it is interesting that the IHN is repeated three times. It seems that often acronyms, symbols or marks are repeated in this manner noting the numeric significance in emphasizing the symbolism. i.e. the kings head mark repeated four times in line; ANDREA FERARA repeated four times in sequence, and these 'X's often occurring in twos punctuating phrases or words. These are the examples that come to mind, but surely there are others.

Thanks for keeping us going guys!!!

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 13th December 2007, 10:08 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,023

Hi Jim,
Just a little detail ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. Jim (Quote).


I meant IHN MINI and not IHN MENE. This is another variation of the inscription, also often seen, as already quoted by Juan L. Calvo and Evans ( see post #83 ). Would this different "spelling" somehow misguide the assumption that these legends are connected with the allegory in the book of Daniel ... or not ?
Within my ignorance, i think the deciphering of this expression and its variants could reside somewhere else.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 13th December 2007, 10:41 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I have these very old lances, supposedly one from the XVI and other from the XVII centuries.
The older one would be for hunting and the "newer" one for defence ... with butt spike and all that.
Both appear to have been made by regional smiths.
The defence one has on both blade sides three times the letter S deeply stroke. I don't think is a maker's mark, with all that exuberance. Besides, local smiths in that time were not allowed to make arms for their own trade, but only by order of some important client. So in my humble view, the marks are either the family or heraldic initials of some mannor house or, and here goes my fantasy, some kind of mystic mighty symbol.
The hunting lance has no marks, but i take this chance to show both pieces, as both are kept close, and also because i am pleased to have these two specimens in my little collection
Sorry for the abuse
Fernando

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[fernando]

Old 15th December 2007, 12:23 AM

Posted by
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

You're right Fernando, trying to determine the meaning of words inscribed on blades can be extremely difficult, especially when there are words used that are possibly transliterated, such as often happened in Solingen work. There are also archaic terms that might have had certain meaning in earlier times, as I suggested with the allegorical metaphor. The mene alluded to a coin, also termed 'mina' and in some variation meant 'to be counted'. I have not been able to find anything worthwhile on IHN (in German ='it' which seems unlikely).
Admittedly this line of suggestion is 'way out of the box' but seemed worth mentioning.
The same problems occur with marks, as on the lance head. It does not seem these are 'S's but possibly some stylized symbol. They are too 'loose' to be the letter and look like snakes, though not suggesting this is the case yet. They are triangulated, apparantly emphasizing three as we have noted in other cases.
I have seen these curious squiggle type marks in motif on the entire blade of Spanish colonial sword blades, and if I am not mistaken, they have been seen on SE Asian weapons. Unfortunately I cannot cite that with certainty, and perhaps if anyone from those factions happens to read this they could probably add some information.
Since lances are not regularly in my field of study, could you say where these might have originated.

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 15th December 2007, 07:44 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Arent many swords marked IHN SOLINGEN? Is MENE or MINI a place somewhere?
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[fernando]

Old 15th December 2007, 10:38 PM

Posted by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

Flogging A Dead Horse Here ....
Please !
Can anyone identify this mark on what is most likely an English Shear Steel backsword from the late 17th - early 18th century ?

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Currently mounted as a N. African (Algerian?) Sayf .
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 03:20 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Yay!!! Its great to see you here Rick!!!!
This is again, what this thread is about....European and as seen here, British blades on distinctly ethnographic weapons. It is really interesting that the British had pretty well established trade in the Maghreb in the very early 17th century, and English nobles and merchants are shown in portraits wearing these 'nimcha's. Although typically considered Moroccan they did diffuse throughout the littoral and as you note, were locally termed sa'if rather than the collectors term nimcha.

This is an actual makers mark similar to something I have seen before, but if I recall was unable to find a reliable match. It is an unusually stylized mark that has degraded considerably, and does seem of the period you suggest as the blade seems British and corresponding.
We need 'the books' on this one.....Jeff and Fernando!!! help. Gyngell, Boeheim, Lenciewicz.

Thank you for joining us here on the thread Rick. While we're looking, could you please explain the term 'shear' steel. I'm pretty 'uh' ,rusty ,on my metallurgy and would like to know more on that.

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 03:55 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jeff,


Originally Posted by Jeff D
Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend? (Quote)

Jeff


A trend yes, but maybe not an exclusive situation. I guess these trade symbols had a condition to be copied or even adopted by other Peoples, who later developed their own evolutions and modifications. I am thinking of the example shown in post #50, where the cross over the orb was a typical Portuguese Chivalry Order. We also know that there are cases where something that was adopted from another culture, place or people became so popularized by the "copier/adopter" that, for the public conscience, such thing was their own creation.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 04:09 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,


Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Arent many swords marked IHN SOLINGEN? Is MENE or MINI a place somewhere? (Quote)


I am no more than a mere ignorant, but i have a deep conviction that these terms refer something spiritual/cabalistic/religious, in no way a place, a factory, or the like.
The hipothesis of being some symbolic situation relative to be numbered, as per Daniel's profecies, would not be yet finally outruled. Probably the explanation, not being precisely this, will be its neighbour.
I keep trying to find out, within my modest possibilities.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 04:10 PM

Postd by:
Rick
Member

Join Date: Nov 2004

Shear Steel
Thanks for the welcome Jim !

From another site :

" Shear Steel - Before the development of Crucible Steel, Blister Steel was forged by repeated folding and forge welding to mix the areas of high and low carbon steel. Shear Steel was the lowest quality generally created and further folding and welding created Double Shear Steel. Long regarded as ideal for blades and cutting edges, primarily because the slag trapped within the steel lead to a serrated edge without it being purposely formed. "

I say this about the blade because there are some curious areas on one side that look as if they have eroded/rusted in layers .
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[fernando]

Old 16th December 2007, 04:35 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The same problems occur with marks, as on the lance head. It does not seem these are 'S's but possibly some stylized symbol. They are too 'loose' to be the letter and look like snakes, though not suggesting this is the case yet. They are triangulated, apparantly emphasizing three as we have noted in other cases.
I have seen these curious squiggle type marks in motif on the entire blade of Spanish colonial sword blades, and if I am not mistaken, they have been seen on SE Asian weapons. Unfortunately I cannot cite that with certainty, and perhaps if anyone from those factions happens to read this they could probably add some information.
Since lances are not regularly in my field of study, could you say where these might have originated.
Jim (Quote)


Thank you for the new perspectives on the marking of the lance, which i will seriously consider. This piece was bought by my seller to the keeper of an old country farm ( mannor ) house, in an area full of old nobility estates. The lady quoted the lance as being from the "house defences". The hunting lance is not marked and therefore off topic, but i can add is also Portuguese.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 17th December 2007, 03:22 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Rick, thank you for explaining that on shear steel, a term I have heard but did not really understand. I wish I had an answer to return on the marking on the Moroccan sa'if, but as I say, though I have seen similar I have no distinct name to offer..yet. We never stop looking! There are possibilities in the references I have mentioned, and whoever gets to them will hopefully find some clues.
We have made some good progress on some of the other frequently seen markings on ethnographic weapons with European blades, and as always, the research continues.

Fernando, I'm still with you on the strong possibility of cabalistic origins in many of these markings, so we'll keep looking. I think there is key symbolism in the three sequence of the 'S's on the lance too. In an interesting aside, reading on pirate flags (prompted by the discovery of the ship that had been the notorious Captain Kidd's) I found that the skull and crossbones was not as prominantly used as typically represented, and that one pirate captain used the symbol repeated 'three' times. Symbolism, found even with these scoundrels of the sea it seems.
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[fernando]

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
Just reviewing some inscriptions on rapier blades and one had the Solingen example I.H.N. Solingen

This seems to suggest an acronym or primary letters of some other phrase or wording in the punctuation.

Another German blade 17th c. PETER WUNDES IHN SOLINGEN
While this seems to read by this maker 'in' Solingen, in German grammar the 'ihn' goes not mean 'in'.

Another Italian rapier c.1650 IHN. SOLINGEN punctuated between

Another Italian c.1620 I.H.N. entirely by itself suggesting obviously by the punctuation between the letters that they may be primary letters of a phrase or wording rather than a word itself.

* Solingen blades noting that as a 'place' of manufacture often have variations of ME FECIT SOLINGEN (Solingen made me)

Another note on the triple repitition :
An Italian rapier c.1650 NE.NE.NE
What could this mean? but the three emphasis is clear!

While on another Italian rapier of the same period:
A.S.H.S. repeated many times
again this seems primary letters of words in a phrase, emphasized
by repitition as if to multiply the power of the phrase.

I think these examples are good support for your theory Fernando! But I still haven't come up with 'MENE' yet, but could this also be used in acronym form as in these other examples? rather than a single word.

The research continues

All the best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 18th December 2007, 11:49 AM

Posted by:
E.B. Erickson
Member

Join Date: Dec 2007

Hey all,
A few weeks ago Jim asked me to add my two cent's worth to this thread, so here goes. I've read the posts to this point, and can offer some thoughts on several of the marks discussed. Please bear in mind that the comments are my opinions only, but where possible I'll provide some sort of reference.

First, I think that some of the anchor marks being discussed aren't anchors at all, but are crosses with some decorative touches to the base and with added crossbars. Many of these marks appear on Spanish blades, which was (is?) a predominantly Catholic country, so it isn't surprising to see crosses at the end of fullers. The differences in the designs may be due to smiths having a distinctive cross as an identifying mark (and a blade may or may not have the smith's name in the fuller). Other differences may be because there have been a lot of variations on the Christian cross over the years, and the crosses at the end of fullers can reflect local/smith preferences.

Solingen apparently used actual anchors as a mark (or some of it's smiths did), and these don't look much like the marks referred to in the paragraph above. In Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" there's a photo of a brass-hilted English cav. sword with S-shaped members to the basket, and the blade bears an anchor mark. I have in my collection an English sword of the late 1700s with a German blade, and the blade is etched in the fuller "Ihn Solingen" and at the end of the fuller is a nicely etched nautical anchor (but not a fouled anchor like one sees on naval swords).

On IHN SOLINGEN, I think the IHN really does mean "in". Remember that spelling back then was very phonetic, and there wasn't much in the way of standardization. Punch marks between letters may just be embellishment.

On MINI/MENE. One often sees this as INIMINI (what I want to know is, where is minymoe? --bad joke), and there was a suggestion on an old SFI thread that this may be an abbreviated form of the Latin IN TE DOMINI. Unfortunately, the thread is going to be about impossible to find, because it was one of those "What is this sword" threads. The sword happened to be English ca. 1700 with INIMINI in the blade's fullers.

And then there's Eastern blades with their own versions of European maker's marks. These can be tough to tell apart! For example, see eBay 190183023239, which ended a day or two ago. Euro or Eastern?

Oh well,that's enough for now! --ElJay
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[fernando]

Old 20th December 2007, 10:20 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Eljay , its so good to have you join in on this! Your knowledge and experience in these early European blades is well established and I really do appreciate your insight into some of these puzzling topics.

The so called anchor marks it seems, for some time were regarded by many as simply flourishes in the decorative motif on these early blades. As we have discussed, there were often cryptic anagrams, and coded wording and phrases applied on many blades carrying either patriotic or talismanic meanings, so equally imbued motif such as these multibar cross devices seem well placed.
I think that as you note, the religious symbolism may have been key in the Spanish applications, but possibly many of these might have been closely tied to the merchant marks prevalent from late 16th c. onward. Possibly these may have been the source for the term anchor.
As you note, there were German makers who used nautical devices such as the anchor, having nothing to do with maritime themes. I recall it seems, a sextant like device also.

Your point on the use of IHN is well placed as well, and it does seem that the phonetics might be used in the constant transliterations and variations in spellings. I have seen German made blades with the same Spanish name on opposite faces of the blade, each spelled differently. Possibly the maker tried to make the inscription appear more Latin? or religious? Possibly the same concept in abbreviated version of the Latin phrase as you note, INI MINI which makes sense, but still think maybe the MENE spelling might have other possibilities.

A question on East India Company marks, it seems the typically quadranted heart with the company initials VEIC does appear on bayonet blades of the 18th c. as well as firearms, but I havent ever seen it on a sword blade, have you? On the Dutch EIC the VOC does appear on hanger blades of the 18th century (I've only ever seen them on kastanes) but it seems they invariably have the year 1768 or close to that. Have you encountered swords with the VOC on the blade?

On the crosses/anchors it would be great if we could find some that distinctly appear with makers names so maybe we could associate?

Thank you again Eljay. I know you're busy and having you here on what is developing into a resource that will hopefully help us all in better understanding and recognizing these marks, is very much appreciated.

All the very best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 23rd December 2007, 07:01 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

IN NOMINE DOMINE = In the name of the Lord.
For reasons connected with the evolution of the sword, during the XII century, as blades acquired a certain form, the spiritual and religious sense of the Knights ( Cruzaders ) caused the frequent appearance of certain phrases, as also or together with the inclusion of names of sword smiths, which had already been practised during the XI century, namely in the Solingen area.
Explicit phrases like IN NOMINE DOMINI, HOMO DEI ( man of God ), or BENEDICTUS DEUS MES ( My blessed God ), as also initials like NEDRC NEDRU (Nomine Eterni Dei Regis Caeli/Universi), or BOAC (Beati Omnipotensque Angeli Christi), would give place to composite situations like IN NOMINE DOMINE/CICE LINE ME FECIT, Cice Line naturaly being the smith.
Amazingly this type of inscriptions was seen firstly in central Europe and specially England, and only after it gained intensity in Spain, round the XIV century.
https://calderobruja.wordpress.com/2...la-edad-media/
I would therefore infer that later expressions like IN MENE, IHN MINI and the like, are no more than corruptions of IN DOMINE DOMINI.
Concerning the sugestion that the symbols resembling anchors are after all decorated crosses, could well be true, though a bit hard to swallow. Maybe some further evidence comes to light, one of these days.
All the best
Fernando.
,

[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 01:07 AM

Posted by:
Dom
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)

Hi every body

just to stick on the initial subject, "Early makers trade marks" here attached my X-Mas / New Year present

source "Les Armes Orientales" édition "du Portail" by Iaroslay Lebedynsky (1992)

à +

Dom

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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:17 PM

Posted by.
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Sorry guys about my very slow response, this time of year is nuts!

I have been reading with great interest the comments on the orbs, crosses and anchors, and am thrilled to see Eljay here! The significance of these symbols has been mentioned. The possibility that they may be makers marks, simple decorations and religious/magical symbols, has been noted. I think to some extent all of these observations are true. I would like to add one more, and that is a mark of quality. Victor Diehl writes in Chapter 1 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume I on Pg 6
'
Frequently, sword blades are found that are marked with the master smith's name and one or more "running wolves" or "Reichs apples." Both of these symbols have long been regarded as identifying blades of the highest quality.
The "running wolf" blade mark has a lengthy history in Germany. The trademarks were first used in Passau in the late 13th Century. By the 15th Century, this mark was regarded as a symbol of highest quality throughout Germany. Since blades marked with the running wolves brought higher prices than other trademarks, forgeries began to appear. The first large-scale copies began in Koln around 1460. In order to stop this infringement, the city of Passau petitioned the city of Koln to halt the use of the wolf mark by smiths working within its jurisdiction. In order to comply, the the city banned the use of the wolf mark in 1464. However, smiths outside Koln, including many in Solingen, were not affected by the law. Therefore, the use of the spurious "running wolf" mark continued and was so widespread by 1550 that few people could identify genuine Passau blades. In spite of this, the wolf mark has grown to become a general mark of quality.

I suspect this is basic commerce 101 and is a universal trend as we can see with the other marks noted above ie; Andrea Ferrera, eyelash, moons, Assadollah, Wilkinson "Proved" marks etc...
These quotes also reiterates alot of what Jim has been telling us and confirms fernando's observations about the anchor trends not being exclusive to a specific region. (it also explains why I get e-mail spam from china for cheap Rolexs, Viagra, etc...)

All the Best
.
Jeff

[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:32 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

To further the discussions on letters stamped; From Cronau

INRI = "Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Judaeorum"
IHS = "Jesuiten wappen" = Jesuit symbol?
MHZGA = "Meine Hoffnung Zu Gott Allein" = My hope to God alone

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:36 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada


Hi Rick,

I remember this mark from before, and have relooked. Unfortunately I cannot find a match. Part of the problem is that it is a misstrike and only partially seen. I suspect it is a Spanish mark as i cannot find anything close in my German references. I will keep looking for it as well as the swallowtail butterfly mark shown before.

All the Best
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:45 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Katana,

Excellent observations on the dots. This is something I would like to learn more about. My guess is it has to do with Numerology as mentioned before. Below is a polish saber with different dot patterns, clearly added later in its life.

All the Best
Jeff

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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 07:53 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thank you Dom for the scan.

Just a note that E is a Indian copy of Assaddollah. See my last post on the wolf mark I think this puts it in context.

All the Best
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th December 2007, 09:05 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Its great to see more outstanding input keeping our thread going!
Dom, thank you so much for sharing the excerpts out of Lebedynsky's great book, and excellent resource that never gets the recognition it deserves. What a perfect Christmas gift .

Jeff, Im glad you're back, and I know this time of year is pretty hectic. As always, you've done an excellent job of compiling data and keeping perspective on the ongoing observations, especially good information on those Latin worded religious invocations.
Interesting on the clearly later added inscription on the Polish sabre, which seem to have been crudely added in imitation of much earlier markings that recall the 'fringia' mark and as you note, numeric applications of dots.
Something that comes to mind with the dots are arrangements of dots relating to religious invocation on the 'paternoster' blades. Need to add more on these and the varying dot arrangements.

Fernando, as always you are on course with your perspectives on the Latin invocations, and I agree that there were corrupted applications often, and that in the ever widening range of copying popular phrases and symbols, much of the original symbolism is lost.

I often wonder just how ancient is this use of marks, invocation and symbolism on weapons. While most of our discussion goes back to the Medeival period, we know that Viking swords carried invocations and superstitious symbolism. I believe that in those swords, typically the Frankish made weapons had makers names in the hilt.

Lets look into the dot arrangements on the 'paternosters' and the Viking markings more.

Thanks very much guys,
All the best, and a very Merry Christmas to all!!!!
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 27th December 2007, 04:39 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thought I would look further into the rather esoteric 'Paternoster' blades, which may have some remote associations with numeric dot arrangements found on European blades.
In discussing various methods, whether genuinely effective or not in lightening blades in the 15th and 16th centuries in Europe, Burton ("Book of the Sword", p.136) describes these 'paternoster' blades. Apparantly the numeric arrangements of depressions placed on these blades were termed 'paternosters' because the dots in number suggested the beads in rosaries. He notes that these blades were "...fitted with round depressions which enabled the pious to count the number of his 'vain repititions' even in the dark'. While this practice seems somewhat doubtful, the association does show the implications of religious symbolism imbued in these early blades, in this case I believe that Germany was the origin of many of these.

Although obviously not 'markings', I thought that the numeric symbolism might be pertinant.

Best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 4th January 2008, 09:14 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Something interesting I found on the I.H.S.

I.H.S. is the "...monogram of the name of Jesus in Greek 'Iesous'.
'H' is not the Roman 'aitch' but the capital form of the Greek 'eta'.
The mistaken notion that these initials correspond to Roman letters gave rise to the erroneous interpretation that I.H.S. is an acronym for 'Iesus Hominum Salvator' (Jesus, saviour of men) or 'I have suffered'.

from "A Dictionary of Classical, Biblical and Literary Allusions", A.Lass, D.Kiremidjian & R.Goldstein, N.Y. 1987, p.122.

Since these initials do seem to occur on arms and armor occasionally, this seemed interesting.
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[fernando]

Old 4th January 2008, 10:38 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


That's right, Jim,
As Jeff has quoted in post # 112, a Jesuit symbol or, better said, ( if i may, Jeff ) a symbol adopted by Jesuits, once its origins date back to much earlier times, like the IV century, appearing for example in catacombs.
They also call this symbol a christogram.
Oh boy, the Internet is a miracle
Fernando

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[fernando]

Old 5th January 2008, 05:01 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

It sure is Fernando!

Interesting illustration of the IHS with the cross, and it seems very much in line with a lot of the markings we are reviewing. I wonder if a 'Christogram' like this would appear as a marking on weapons, I dont recall seeing any exactly like this, but many quite close.

All very best regards,
Jim
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