THE MARTINI HENRY.

[Johan van Zyl]

Fascinating reading! Ibrahiim, I also own a Martini-Henry, for which I load lathe-turned shells with 60-85 grains of black powder. I cast my own bullets with a specially made mold.

I saw a Martini-Henry for sale in a big souk when I visited the UAE in 2012. I also travelled to Dibba on that occasion, and unknowingly must have been quite near you in Oman.

Regards
Johan

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Fascinating reading! Ibrahiim, I also own a Martini-Henry, for which I load lathe-turned shells with 60-85 grains of black powder. I cast my own bullets with a specially made mold.

I saw a Martini-Henry for sale in a big souk when I visited the UAE in 2012. I also travelled to Dibba on that occasion, and unknowingly must have been quite near you in Oman.

Regards
Johan

Very good to hear! Reloading ammo was very popular here..the striker cap was rudimentary; a couple of match heads jammed in with sandpaper

And a very much guessed at charge ..
ln arabia the barrels were cut back getting rid of a lot of unnecessary barrel and bayonet lug...lightening the weapon considerably with little loss in accuracy.

[Johan van Zyl]

Salaams Ibrahiim. Very interesting. Having seen that Martini-Henry at the souk, and a brass cannon on a carriage I would dearly have loved to own, we travelled past Dibba down a long road toward a "Friday Market" just outside of Masafi. Unfortunately I was with family who did not share my edged weapon/firearms interests, so there was nobody I could share my enthusiasm with.

Regards
Johan

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Salaams Ibrahiim. Very interesting. Having seen that Martini-Henry at the souk, and a brass cannon on a carriage I would dearly have loved to own, we travelled past Dibba down a long road toward a "Friday Market" just outside of Masafi. Unfortunately I was with family who did not share my edged weapon/firearms interests, so there was nobody I could share my enthusiasm with.

Regards
Johan

Salaams Johan ...some 20 odd years ago I was sitting on an old pipe in the middle of a much older Fort in central Oman when I noticed the pipe had a sort of plaque stuck on it... It was a hot day... but scrabbling off the dirt it read Gun Barrel of Vasco Da Garma etc etc ... and after moving aside more dirt it turned out to be an 8 foot long bronze cannon barrel!! Just too heavy to even consider lifting but I could envisage it in the middle of my dining room... !!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I PLACED A Muscat MARTINI AT #17....

Interestingly I collected a lot of Maastricht Petrus Regout a few years ago...The famous Sphinx marked Dutch Pottery so popular in Oman from about 1880 to 1920 and earmarked in a special report by Omanisilver.com as the source of weapons smuggled to the Northwest frontier tribesmen fighting the British in that period. Thus I conclude ~

See http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html for a surprise disclosure about the famous Pottery known as Petrus Regout from Maastricht Holland which started flooding the Omani market in about 1880 for maybe 25 years... It carries the famous sphinx mark underneath.. of which there are several indicating a different year etc... Anyway these pottery bowls were more than likely used to cover the smuggling of one particular mark of Martini Henry made specially for the Muscat Market ...The Muscat Martini Henry made about 10 kilometres from Maastricht and sold into the Afghanistan market for the rebels fighting the British. These as well as weapons made up the Khyber !! were used in that campaign. Omani Silver.com at reference more or less viewing the delivery of weapons through Muscat as highly likely and we know the pottery went through there and was very popular in Oman at one Maria Theresa a piece. I have several dishes. Please read their excellent article.

http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[midelburgo]

One of my lectures this month was Rudyard Kipling Wee Willie Winkle volume, and it also contained the short tale The man who could reign (from which a famous movie came). It spends some text explaining how the Khyber pass Martini Henrys were made and where.

[Will M]

This Snider precedes MH but it has an interesting butt modification
https://www.icollector.com/SNIDER-EN...IDER_i33570078

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Will M

This Snider precedes MH but it has an interesting butt modification
https://www.icollector.com/SNIDER-EN...IDER_i33570078

What an interesting rifle. I have never seen a stock modification on any snider, apart from the odd one with Maori carving, and I have seen many sniders over the years. Obviously done to represent the jezail stocks of the Khyber region, but why would one bother to modify what would have been a perfectly functional stock anyway??
Thanks for posting.........
Stu

[rickystl]

That Snider is indeed an interesting gun. I have never seen a Snider with a Jazail style butt modification. My only guess is the owner was used to handling older Jazail style muzzle loaders in the past, and modified the stock to suite his personal taste. For sure an Afghan local modification. Very cool. Wish I had seen it first. LOL

Rick

[Will M]

Rick it may well be for sale by now , the buyer always purchases many firearms and is most likely a dealer. Downside it the price will be more.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Swinburn Henry

Reference ..
A....http://antiquearms.org.nz/articles/swinburn-henry/
B....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinburn%E2%80%93Henry

I have to admit that my knowledge of Martini Henry variants was sketchy at best however I have now read such excellent write ups as at the references that I can now see where they fit … We have in Oman various marks of MH and the different types of ammunition. Local variations were changed to suit the more slight stature of the arab individual by sawing back the barrels making the system much lighter and disregarding the bayonet. Once the caliber had changed to 303 around 1890 it would inevitably mean the single shot weapon would be overtaken if someone could invent a magazine ...although trained riflemen could in fact deliver 20 plus rounds a minute just by hand feeding single rounds. I digress as the aim is to introduce the Swinburn Henry an almost exact lookalike ...with a few differences.

Please view the excellent report at Reference A on this weapon.(with excellent artwork and photos)

See also reference B wikepedia on the weapon..which states~

Quote"The Swinburn–Henry rifle was a breech-loading lever-actuated single-shot rifle that was used by British Commonwealth forces in the late 1870s as substitute for the Martini–Henry, which was at the time in short supply."Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The problem or one of them with the Swinburn Henry was the extractor device which relied on a sliding plate but was very prone to jamming. It did however have a unique half and full cocking device in about the same place as the MH Load indicator lever..but much longer and functioned well. This would be useful in preventing an accidental discharge of the round up the spout while on horseback..thus a good bit of kit on the cavalry carbine.

[yulzari]

May I recommend Neil Aspinshaw's seminal book on the Martini Henry which is about to be published (see www. martinihenry.org) which deals with the many stories and myths about the rifle and explains the actual effectiveness of the weapon and it's ammunition. The result of years of close study from primary sources.

Also one should note that most of the smuggled Martinis and bazaar sold ones around the Persian Gulf were Belgian made using the 577/450 ammunition but not identical to the actual service Martini Henry.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks for the detail about the book about to be released on the Martini Henry. This thread is composed from years of research …

ACTUALLY ABOUT 38 YEARS IN ALL FROM MAINLY MY OWN EXPERIENCE WITH THE WEAPON AND AS A DEALER IN THEM FROM AN ACTIVE ANTIQUES SHOP FOR AT LEAST 10 YEARS . THE POSTS TO INSPECT IN THIS REGARD AND ON THE WEAPON FAVOURED BY TRIBALS IN THIS REGION CAN BE SEEN AT #84...38 AND 5 (ONE IS A BOOK) AND WE ARE ALWAYS READY TO VIEW ANY PUBLICATION AS IT ARRISES. I AM SURE THE NEW BOOK WILL GET A GOOD AIRING ON THESE PAGES.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by yulzari

May I recommend Neil Aspinshaw's seminal book on the Martini Henry which is about to be published (see www. martinihenry.org) which deals with the many stories and myths about the rifle and explains the actual effectiveness of the weapon and it's ammunition. The result of years of close study from primary sources.

Also one should note that most of the smuggled Martinis and bazaar sold ones around the Persian Gulf were Belgian made using the 577/450 ammunition but not identical to the actual service Martini Henry.

I was of the impression that most of the "smuggled" Martinis were in fact copy made in what is now Pakistan, though no doubt some were stolen from the British Army. If Belgian made, then surely they would carry a proof mark, and though they may exist, I have never seen a Belgian proof on a Martini. Most "smuggled " Martinis I have seen carry no marks at all, and appear never to have been marked, as there is no sign that marks have been removed.
Perhaps Ibrahiim, who will have seen many "local" Martinis could advise if he has seen any Belgian proved Martinis.
The fact that they were made in 577/450, was that this caliber was what was in common use at the time. Of course they were superceded by .303 when that caliber came into regular use.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I was of the impression that most of the "smuggled" Martinis were in fact copy made in what is now Pakistan, though no doubt some were stolen from the British Army. If Belgian made, then surely they would carry a proof mark, and though they may exist, I have never seen a Belgian proof on a Martini. Most "smuggled " Martinis I have seen carry no marks at all, and appear never to have been marked, as there is no sign that marks have been removed.
Perhaps Ibrahiim, who will have seen many "local" Martinis could advise if he has seen any Belgian proved Martinis.
The fact that they were made in 577/450, was that this caliber was what was in common use at the time. Of course they were superceded by .303 when that caliber came into regular use.
Stu

Please see #95 which outlines the amazing fact that Muscat marked MH were made in Maastrict and smuggled into the region under bales of pottery... The Famous Maastricht pottery commonly still found in Muscat.

Heres the post below ~ I PLACED A Muscat MARTINI AT #17....

Interestingly I collected a lot of Maastricht Petrus Regout a few years ago...The famous Sphinx marked Dutch Pottery so popular in Oman from about 1880 to 1920 and earmarked in a special report by Omanisilver.com as the source of weapons smuggled to the Northwest frontier tribesmen fighting the British in that period. Thus I conclude ~

See http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html for a surprise disclosure about the famous Pottery known as Petrus Regout from Maastricht Holland which started flooding the Omani market in about 1880 for maybe 25 years... It carries the famous sphinx mark underneath.. of which there are several indicating a different year etc... Anyway these pottery bowls were more than likely used to cover the smuggling of one particular mark of Martini Henry made specially for the Muscat Market ...The Muscat Martini Henry made about 10 kilometres from Maastricht and sold into the Afghanistan market for the rebels fighting the British. These as well as weapons made up the Khyber !! were used in that campaign. Omani Silver.com at reference more or less viewing the delivery of weapons through Muscat as highly likely and we know the pottery went through there and was very popular in Oman at one Maria Theresa a piece. I have several dishes. Please read their excellent article.

http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Please see #95 which outlines the amazing fact that Muscat marked MH were made in Maastrict and smuggled into the region under bales of pottery... The Famous Maastricht pottery commonly still found in Muscat.

Heres the post below ~ I PLACED A Muscat MARTINI AT #17....

Interestingly I collected a lot of Maastricht Petrus Regout a few years ago...The famous Sphinx marked Dutch Pottery so popular in Oman from about 1880 to 1920 and earmarked in a special report by Omanisilver.com as the source of weapons smuggled to the Northwest frontier tribesmen fighting the British in that period. Thus I conclude ~

See http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html for a surprise disclosure about the famous Pottery known as Petrus Regout from Maastricht Holland which started flooding the Omani market in about 1880 for maybe 25 years... It carries the famous sphinx mark underneath.. of which there are several indicating a different year etc... Anyway these pottery bowls were more than likely used to cover the smuggling of one particular mark of Martini Henry made specially for the Muscat Market ...The Muscat Martini Henry made about 10 kilometres from Maastricht and sold into the Afghanistan market for the rebels fighting the British. These as well as weapons made up the Khyber !! were used in that campaign. Omani Silver.com at reference more or less viewing the delivery of weapons through Muscat as highly likely and we know the pottery went through there and was very popular in Oman at one Maria Theresa a piece. I have several dishes. Please read their excellent article.

http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,
Interesting possible connection??? but can you verify that Martinis were in fact made in Holland? I do not doubt that arms were smuggled thru Muscat, but anyone could have stamped "Muscat Martini" on the breech. To me , if Muscat was an avenue for smuggling weapons, it would be rather foolish to stamp such a thing on any weapon as it would have directed the "powers that be" to the source and therefore to the confiscatuion of such weapons. With lack of any other evidence showing on the particular gun I would be sceptical as to a Maastricht origin. Dutch pottery or for that matter any other cargo COULD have been used to conceal weapons in transit.

If you refer to my post above, I asked if you can verify the existance of Belgian proved Martinis from the many you have seen?

Stu

[yulzari]

Major General Syed Ali Hamid comments at https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunru...crash-of-1910/ on the trade into the area generally.

Period reports of British origin make more references to Belgian Martinis. Belgium having a major arms industry making tens of thousands of Martinis annually. Many, if not most, Martinis today from Arabia are of Belgian make from my observations but others will be far more knowledgable on that matter.

See also the Doctoral thesis of James Ficus on 'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds

[Kubur]

Sometimes people mismatch Holland and Belgium, or Belgium and France.
But actualy Belgium is a country...

I think i got something for you, they were made in Liege.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30031969

Commissioned from Francotte by Westley Richards, to fulfill an order reputed to be for 36,000 rifles from the Zuid Afrikaansche Republiek. Less than one third of these were actually delivered.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Please see #95 which outlines the amazing fact that Muscat marked MH were made in Maastrict and smuggled into the region
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaam Ibrahim
Is it possible that Maastricht stamps were only export proofs???
as it was a port to ship the guns
and actualy the guns were made in Liege...

[kahnjar1]

Thank you Kubur for the link. These as stated, are Francotte Martinis and not Martini Henry Rifles. The action is different from the Martini Henry as described in the attached link. https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...nt=26168425541
So it is likely that at least some of the rifles featured in this thread are in fact Francottes rather than Martini Henrys. Only by having a particular weapon to hand would correctly identify which it is........
Francotte's factory was located in Liege Belgium.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Salaam Ibrahim
Is it possible that Maastricht stamps were only export proofs???
as it was a port to ship the guns
and actualy the guns were made in Liege...

Yes I agree .Please see #108. The Pottery was made 10 Kilometres down the road at Maastricht and the weapons at Liege. The weapons were smuggled Oman under cover of the crates of pottery..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by yulzari

Major General Syed Ali Hamid comments at https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunru...crash-of-1910/ on the trade into the area generally.

Period reports of British origin make more references to Belgian Martinis. Belgium having a major arms industry making tens of thousands of Martinis annually. Many, if not most, Martinis today from Arabia are of Belgian make from my observations but others will be far more knowledgable on that matter.

See also the Doctoral thesis of James Ficus on 'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds

Thanks for the fine detail at the references which are a must see for members here...

https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunr...-crash-of-1910/

'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds[/QUOTE]

[Kubur]

I forgot to post mine...
I think it's something from Oman...

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I forgot to post mine...
I think it's something from Oman...

Yes the silverwork looks to be Omani. Are there any proof, or other marks on the action or barrel? If not it is likely to be a Khyber copy, as is mine.
Stu

[Kubur]

Hi Stu
yes i have some marks and would be grateful to know what they mean
43 A
and on the barrel 604

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Stu
yes i have some marks and would be grateful to know what they mean
43 A
and on the barrel 604

Pics please???
Stu

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Pics please???
Stu

here the numbers