Fighting with keris - Page 4

David · 12th October 2006, 03:34 AM

Well, we seem to be getting off on a tangent here since this thread is supposed to be about fighting with keris, using the keris as a physical weapon, not as a spiritual tool. But here we are.

You don't need to apologize for the mystical talk Pusaka, it's pretty difficult not to talk about it when it comes to keris.
As for what's alive or not, IMHO, it is clear to me that EVERYTHING is alive. This is not just a mystical philosophy, it is a scientific fact. EVERYTHING is alive on the sub-atomic level. I believe the sub-atomic is the conduit for the mystical/magical current. A trained "practitioner" can embue purpose and access power from a safety pin if necessary. Keris have been constructed for many different purposes over the centuries. Certainly the level of skill and attention, energy and prayers directed into that construction has helped to open these tools as a conduit for whatever purpose they were constructed for. But untimately it is my believe that in the end power resides in the practitioner, not the object. This doesn't mean that a properly constructed keris, embued with the right prayers and energy in accordance with that practitioners beliefs won't make a better conduit for the work that practitioner does with the keris.
If we are collecting old keris it seems somewhat unreasonable to think that a blade specially prepared to do a particular mystical/magickal working for a particular person from a foreign culture 2, 3 or 4 centuries ago will automatic deliver the same mystical/magickal energy to me. Likewise a keris pusaka that carries the energy of family power and lineage is not going to transfer the power and energy of that family's bloodline to me simply because it has somehow come into my hands. I must make my own pusaka if that is my purpose. For these reasons i can see why a silat practitioner who does not have bloodline ties to Indonesian culture might prefer to have a new keris to an old one, as Lew suggests, but if i were an Indonesian practitioner i think i would be quite happy with my father's keris.

zartane · 12th October 2006, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I do have a question in regards to this legend. In my internet research (which can, of course be limited) the only reference i have been able to locate of Taming Sari being a person who dueled with Hang Tuah is fro a silat website:
http://www.silat.f9.co.uk/hangtuahintro.htm
There are, however, countless references to Taming Sari as being Hang Tuah's keris (the stories i am more familar with). Is this a legitimate variation on the legends or merely a modern silat misreading of the legends?
Again, this is the problem with using these legends to reach any academic conclusions on the actual origins and uses of the keris.

well, here goes the legend.. actually Taming Sari is a name of the great majapahit's warrior. And the keris itself has a long story to it.. to make it short, this keris had a curse on it " whom ever declaire that the keris is thier's (the owner), the blade will kill it's owner".. so when hang tuah could not defeat taming sari in the duel, he asked taming sari who's keris he is using.. and fortunateley, taming sari replied "it's mine" thus taming sari made a wrong move and he was killed by his own blade. then, hang tuah brought the keris back with him.

when hang tuah came back to melaka, each and every time someone asked who's keris is it? he would reply "it's tameng sari's keris" which then led to the name taming sari as a keris..

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

VVV · 12th October 2006, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I also have heard stories that practioners prefer new keris due to the chance that an old one could carry bad or an evil aura or karma.

Lew

This is also my experience. When Grand Tuhon Gaje started to visit me in Stockholm about 10 years ago he went through my old blades and sensed the vibes of them. Which ones who had killed somebody and those few that had not. He also told me that he didn't like old blades because of the bad forces that could live in them based on what they have been part of. The only antique blade that he used himself was the swords of his maternal grandfather. Otherwise he always preferred new blades made specifically for him. But at least my old sword mounted Lading from Sumba seems to be OK because that's the one he picked for the cover picture of the Swedish MA magazine Fighter.

I never asked my Silat/Kuntao teacher about this but he always also use new blades.

Michael

Pusaka · 12th October 2006, 11:07 AM

In most cases a new blade is better (because it is clean) as long as you can get someone to make a suitable blade to a reasonable standard. Today this however is becoming difficult because most won’t spend the time and will just hammer out the blade as fast as possible so that they can get started with the next order.
How can you make a blade come alive? Well there is a method but as lots of things in silat they don’t talk about it openly. Not only is there a method of making a blade come alive but there is also a method of erasing previous energies in the blade. When given a old keris it is standard practice to first clean it but its not just a physical cleaning.
In any case a blade that was used to kill and owned by a bad owner is seen as a dirty thing both physically and energetically.
A keris will setup an atmosphere around it which will effect all that encounter it whether it was made for them or not. A good keris will have positive effects whilst a bad keris will have negative effects.
If a person does not have the ability to sense that a keris is bad or good then he is advised to put it under his pillow and if it results in bad dreams the owner will not keep it no matter how beautiful the blade is.

Pusaka · 12th October 2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

You showed a nice modern keris that you own Pusaka; in your eyes is it real or not ?
If it is real then how did you make it so ?

Yes that keris is mine. What do I mean by that? I have other keris hanging on my wall but I only have one keris which I consider my personal keris. You can only ever have one keris which you make your own, not a whole wall full. I commissioned it and it was made for me but when I received it it was real in the sense that it was made to a suitable physical standard however it will only becomes “alive” if I make it mine.

As I said previously:

a “real” keris is a blade suitably constructed so that either it has life or has the potential to be given life due to it possessing correct physical construction.

Hopefully I have by now totally confused everyone

David · 12th October 2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zartane

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

Zartane, don't get me wrong, i enjoy a good story as well...just for the pleasure of it.

However, when you first brought this story to this thread you clearly were using it as a possible reason for a historical reality and not telling it as one of the many legends based on this story, but as a truth:
"my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves.."

That was my only issue, that stories like these should not be used to make a case for academic questions. I am still quite interested in this legend and i am still curious if your telling of the legend is particular to silat teachings since i have not hear this telling from any other source.

Kiai Carita · 24th October 2006, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zartane

well, here goes the legend.. actually Taming Sari is a name of the great majapahit's warrior. And the keris itself has a long story to it.. to make it short, this keris had a curse on it " whom ever declaire that the keris is thier's (the owner), the blade will kill it's owner".. so when hang tuah could not defeat taming sari in the duel, he asked taming sari who's keris he is using.. and fortunateley, taming sari replied "it's mine" thus taming sari made a wrong move and he was killed by his own blade. then, hang tuah brought the keris back with him.

when hang tuah came back to melaka, each and every time someone asked who's keris is it? he would reply "it's tameng sari's keris" which then led to the name taming sari as a keris..

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

Interesting legend... in Jawa itself there is no story of either a man or a keris called Taming Sari, and also the power in Jawa at the time of Malaka would have been Demak rather than Majapahit, would it not?

Notes from the Xeng He armada and olso from early Portugese adventurers tell about keris and tombak fighting, so it might be safe to assume that at that time keris fighting was normal. Wayang wong in Sriwedari also depicts keris fighting so there must have been some form of it some time. Just at the end of Demak, Arya Penangsang famousely kills himself by mistake with his own keris and Sutawijaya, founder of Mataram, is said to be so impressed by the valour of his enemy who had hisa stomach cut open and his intestines hanging over his keris that he started a tradition to put wreaths of jasmine on the handle of a groom's keris.

Sultan Agung gave kinatah Gajah-Singa to commemorate the defeat of the Bupati Pati by his forces and is also credited with creating the character Gendring Caluring (Buta Cakil) in wayang kulit - who inevitably gets killed by his own keris at the hands of Arjuna.

I have a feeling that this is the time we should look at to find why and when the Jawa keris stopped being imagined to be used in fighting. Sultan Agung then went on to attempt to sack Batavia but lost twice.

Pak Boedhi mentioned back, that in Yogyakarta kraton most keris are fixed to the handle using resin (dijabung) ... and also the small keris handle fits more snugly in the hand if one holds the keris between the thumb and forefinger, pinching the blumbangan. True, the larger Surakarta ukiran still alows this grip but it doesn't feel as right. With this grip I feel the keris is live and it does fit in to silat moves easily like a long feather of a crane or eagle.

Thank you all for the discussion and to those of you who are Muslim, selamat hari raya Idul Fitri, mohon ma'af lahir dan batin.

Bram.

Lew · 24th October 2006, 07:36 PM

Fighting with keris

Well this has become quite a long thread! So stop fighting with your keris and make up. Can't we all just get along

. I think fighting with wife can be even more deadly than keris

Lew

David · 24th October 2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Fighting with keris

I think fighting with wife can be even more deadly than keris

Lew

Sad but true Lew, sad but true...

24th October 2006, 07:36 PM	#98
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	On the lighter side Fighting with keris Well this has become quite a long thread! So stop fighting with your keris and make up. Can't we all just get along . I think fighting with wife can be even more deadly than keris Lew

12th October 2006, 03:34 AM	#91
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Well, we seem to be getting off on a tangent here since this thread is supposed to be about fighting with keris, using the keris as a physical weapon, not as a spiritual tool. But here we are. You don't need to apologize for the mystical talk Pusaka, it's pretty difficult not to talk about it when it comes to keris. As for what's alive or not, IMHO, it is clear to me that EVERYTHING is alive. This is not just a mystical philosophy, it is a scientific fact. EVERYTHING is alive on the sub-atomic level. I believe the sub-atomic is the conduit for the mystical/magical current. A trained "practitioner" can embue purpose and access power from a safety pin if necessary. Keris have been constructed for many different purposes over the centuries. Certainly the level of skill and attention, energy and prayers directed into that construction has helped to open these tools as a conduit for whatever purpose they were constructed for. But untimately it is my believe that in the end power resides in the practitioner, not the object. This doesn't mean that a properly constructed keris, embued with the right prayers and energy in accordance with that practitioners beliefs won't make a better conduit for the work that practitioner does with the keris. If we are collecting old keris it seems somewhat unreasonable to think that a blade specially prepared to do a particular mystical/magickal working for a particular person from a foreign culture 2, 3 or 4 centuries ago will automatic deliver the same mystical/magickal energy to me. Likewise a keris pusaka that carries the energy of family power and lineage is not going to transfer the power and energy of that family's bloodline to me simply because it has somehow come into my hands. I must make my own pusaka if that is my purpose. For these reasons i can see why a silat practitioner who does not have bloodline ties to Indonesian culture might prefer to have a new keris to an old one, as Lew suggests, but if i were an Indonesian practitioner i think i would be quite happy with my father's keris.

12th October 2006, 11:07 AM	#94
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	In most cases a new blade is better (because it is clean) as long as you can get someone to make a suitable blade to a reasonable standard. Today this however is becoming difficult because most won’t spend the time and will just hammer out the blade as fast as possible so that they can get started with the next order. How can you make a blade come alive? Well there is a method but as lots of things in silat they don’t talk about it openly. Not only is there a method of making a blade come alive but there is also a method of erasing previous energies in the blade. When given a old keris it is standard practice to first clean it but its not just a physical cleaning. In any case a blade that was used to kill and owned by a bad owner is seen as a dirty thing both physically and energetically. A keris will setup an atmosphere around it which will effect all that encounter it whether it was made for them or not. A good keris will have positive effects whilst a bad keris will have negative effects. If a person does not have the ability to sense that a keris is bad or good then he is advised to put it under his pillow and if it results in bad dreams the owner will not keep it no matter how beautiful the blade is.