Between Solo and Yogya

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Gonjo, Alan, David, Penangsang and Kerislovers,

I would like to tell a story. Actually, this story fits both for this thread or “Keris and Spirit” thread. So, allow me to post it in both thread. Before starting my story, please after reading this story you will not ask me questions such as “Usmen, can you give me reference for your story?” It is time to me to ask you the reference (if any). Why? Because by asking reference, it likes demanding me to go back to school in Jawa whilst, now, I am in the midst of African jungle.

Let’s begin,

Days ago, I raise a question to Gonjo what kind of pusakas/heirlooms Surakarta Kingdom has (I do not remember the exact question by the way). Moreover, in this thread, some discussion revealed Paliyan Negari (the division of one state becoming two states equally) by Giyanti Treaty.

An actor of Jawa political leader at that time was RADEN MAS SAHID (founder of Mangkunegaran and son in law of PRINCE MANGKUBUMI, founder of Jogjakarta Kingdom). Latter, Raden Mas Sahid (Mas Sahid) was known as MANGKUNEGORO I and Prince Mangkubumi was known as HAMENGKU BUWONO I (HB I).

Mas Sahid’s childhood was very poor and sorry. Actually, he was high elevated person. However, he and his great family members (core and extended) were treated unfairly by the ruler at that time. The occupation of Mas Sahid was to care royal horses in stable. It was way to insult someone from high society at that time.

As a consequence of the treatment received, Mas Sahid did not have access to get “good and modern” education and did not have access to socialize with respectful class member. The most respectfull person who Mas sahid could access was only the Capitan of China named Mas Garendi or Sunan KUNING (?). So, the source of knowledge of Mas Sahid mostly came from AJARs/GURUs. Ajar or Guru had a PADEPOKAN/PAGURON/PERGURUAN. Before modern education spreaded widely in Jawa, ordinary children who want to get education went to padepokan as MURIDs of AJAR/GURU or went to PESANTREN as SANTRIs of KIAI/KYAI.

In padepokan, factuually in Jawa society till now, the legend of Mataram’s founder was preserved well and even cultivated hyperbolically. Before Giyanti’s Paliyan Negari, there were two times of Paliyan Negari in Jawa. The first one was Great Kendiri Kingdom divided into two kingdoms namely: Jenggala and Kediri. The second one was “quasi” Paliyan Negari between KI AGENG MATARAM and KI AGENG PENJAWI after the death of (h)ARYO PENANGSANG and the fall of PAJANG KINGDOM. Forget/abandon the first one (Kediri story) because it was irrelevant for my story now.

After the fall of Pajang, there was “quasi” paliyan negari between Ki Ageng Mataram dan Ki Ageng Penjawi. Kia Ageng Mataram was father of PANEMBAHAN SENOPATI, great grand father of SULTAN AGUNG. Ki Ageng Penjawi was father of PRAGOLOPATI I, grandfather of PRAGOLOPATI II. Pragolopatis were emperors of Pati and northern coastal area of Jawa. During paliyan negari negotiation, Ki Ageng Mataram showed less ambition in choosing territory. He let his foster older brother (Ki Ageng Penjawi) to occupy cultivated land and dense inhabitant and crowded harbour in northern Jawa. He just chose uncultivated land, namely ALAS MENTAOK (mentaok jungle). Even, he did not show his appetite to inherit the wealth of former Pajang Kingdom. In contrary, he demanded at all cost to get Pajang’s heirlooms: kerises, tombaks, kendalis, stones which considered as jimat/pusaka such as NYAI DELIMO (Queen Kalinyamat’s main heirloom).

Why did he choose only Alas Mentaok which strategic and economic perspectives were nothing?
Because in Jawa beliveness, in Alas Mentaok lies down WAHYU KEPRABON of Jawa after the fall of Majapahit. This wahyu had been waiting for its new master.

Why did he choose pusakas?
Having pusakas were part of requirement for preparing himself or his offspring as a proper place for Wahyu Keprabon. By having Wahyu Keprabon, power and wealth would follow behind. Lack of wahyu, every power and wealth would disappear by thousand causes. And historian wrote, Mataram Kingdom rose whilst Pati Empire fall down.

This legend of Mataram’s Founder believed deeply by Mas Said. He used it as a guidance of his path to find his glory. During Giyanti Paliyan Negari, the position of Mas Sahid was both warlord and son in law of Prince Mangkubumi. In negotiation, he advised Prince Mangkubumi to follow his ancestor way. Prince Mangkubumi agreed and follow this idea. He chose Jogjakarta but demanding the main heirlooms such as KIAI PLERED the legendary. At that time, Jogjakarta was transit place for copse of royal family who died somewhere and would buried in IMOGIRI or Surakarta. Compared with Surakarta/Kartosuro, Jogjakarta was far less attractive. However, the legend of Alas Mentaok inspired Father and Son in law. Perhaps, this story can also explain why Jogjakarta has more legendary heirlooms than Solo and why Surakarta palace artifact is more glorious than Jogja palace artifact.

After gaining war and getting Jogjakarta region, Prince Mangkubumi became HAMENGKU BUWONO I (HB I). Becoming HB I means becoming legitimate player. To run kingdom and to play power role at that time, the presence of wealth/money/cash resources was important. HB I felt that important and realized he was lack of those resources. Then, perhaps, he felt to follow Mas Sahid’s advises led to the wrong direction (?) The relationship of father and son in low deteriorated and ended in bitterness. HB I and his former enemy collaborated to attempt to kill Mas Sahid. Since then Mas Sahid started to realized, none can rely on his faith to other, even to beloved father in law. He started to struggle of power solely. Finally, he got what he wanted, a territory for him called Mangkunegaran and he became MANGKUNEGORO I (MN I).

The legacy of HB I (and MN I) of the importance aspect of spirit within pusakas (heirlooms) was so deep amongst Jogjakarta people. Now, it can be understood why spirit aspect of keris/tombak is quite importance for Jogja People. They expect wahyu/spirit inside pusakas (as their ancestor/kingdom founder espected). As Gonjowulung mentioned, Jogjanese/Jogja school/ Jogja genre tends to oppose to “NGLARAS” keris/tombak/pusakas. Why? Because they are afraid if by “DILARAS” keris’s spirit/wahyu/inner power will be downgraded. It is believed if keris/tombak is “fired” (reshaped or other action using fire) the inner power/wakyu/spirit will be corrected (even disappear). Yes, Alan is totally right (technical aspect point of view), by “DILARAS” the deterioration/corrotion of keris will be slower. However, amongst Jogjanese, preservation of keris as intangible heritage comes later. The first and most important is “SPIRIT INSIDE KERIS.

Okay… that is all for now. Hope you enjoy today story. Tomorrow I will bring another tale. But don’t forget…give your donation for orphanage. The small effort from you means a live for them.

Warm salam,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Goodness me, it seems as if we are stuttering here Pak Raden.

Well, as long as you are repeating yourself, I guess I will too.

Good yarn Raden, and not at all the sort of story one could ask for a reference to support. What you have given us is personal experience and personal opinion. No references needed for that.

Actually, prior to Mangkubumi collaborating with Mas Said, they had been opponents, then they came together, but as you have told, eventually they separated again.

This division of Jawa was something that the Dutch saw as a "divide and conquer" move, but what they did not realise was that the division of a kingdom was a relatively normal and regular occurrence in Jawa. In fact, for a long time after the division the ordinary people in Jawa thought that everything was going as usual. Things had always been like this, with two opposing seats of power, and sooner or later one or the other would triumph. Of course, this never happened, because the Dutch were there to keep a lid on things.

Actually the division in Javanese eyes took place a long time before the Dutch were forced to regularise it with the Treaty of Giyanti. Mangkubumi set up his seat of power in the area of present day Jogja in 1749. Its just that it took the Dutch 6 years to recognise it.By the time of Giyanti, Mangkubumi already had the support of most of the Javanese elites, and PBIII's position was weakened even further because those princes who had stayed loyal to Surakarta were arrested by the Dutch. At the time of Giyanti, poor old PBIII had almost no support at all. Because of the nature of Javanese kingship, this effectively meant that PBIII could not be king, as a Javanese king only functions by concensus. He cannot take nor make unilateral decisions, especially in matters of state. This was something that the Dutch did not understand, and was one of the prime reasons for the collapse of PBII. The Dutch saw their support of PBIII as Susuhunan as a continuation of legitimate line of descent. This was a European concept and out of place in Jawa.But the Dutch did not realise this. Had the Dutch not been players in the game none of the disasters of Kartosuro would have occurred, and the court scene in Jawa today would be considerably different to what it is. You might even take the viewpoint that the Jawa of the 19th and 20th centuries was a creation of the Dutch.

Just one very minor thing needs to be made clear from Raden's post:- when a keris blade is subjected to normal maintenance procedures involving cleaning up an edge, or tidying up a ganja or kembang kacang, this is done cold, and it is only done after asking permission of the maker of the blade and any presence which may be inside the blade. We do not just pick the blade up, throw it into a fire, and take to it with hammer, tongs and electric grinder.Correctly carried out it is an almost religious ceremony.

On the other hand, if a blade is to be reworked for commercial reasons, the approach is entirely different.

The simple fact of the matter is that not all blades are of the class that need to treated as the home of an entity; not all blades are the work of an empu; not all blades were made for a specific individual. We need to be able to differentiate between those keris which need to be treated as objects with a presence, and those keris which have no presence.Naturally, if one is unable to identify those keris which possess presence, then the safest thing to do is to treat all keris as if they had a presence.

Yes, I understand very clearly why people in Jogja act as they do.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Penangsang. Understood.

I think the ball is in Pak Ganja's court now:-

Pak Ganja, can you please tell us whether it is the Surakarta school of "kerisology", or the Jogjakarta school of "kerisology" that follows most closely the traditions of olden times, be those olden times taken as Majapahit, Mataram, or some other era?

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden,

Of all the places in Tanah Jawa, why Hutan Menataok is chosen by God as the resting place of the Wahyu Keprabon. I always thought that Wahyu Keprabon was only a sign from the Dewata, normally in the form of a light, and it would appear on the chosen Prabhu's forehead? The aura, it was said, can be seen by the people.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear Pak Raden,

Of all the places in Tanah Jawa, why Hutan Menataok is chosen by God as the resting place of the Wahyu Keprabon.

Dear Penangsang II,

It is a good question and it is hard to answer. I am afraid if we continue to discuss this matter (wahyu and hutan mentaok), we will break the rule of the game of warung keris. Why? Because the discussion will out of keris topic.

For eluding to be a trespasser (because breaking the law), I would like to ask the moderator (Sir David) and kerislovers to answer Penangsang's question once. So, after that hope we will be back on the track (no more of discussion on wahyu issues)

Why Alas Mentaok while so many jungles and mountains in Jawa?

According to wahyu keprabon, actually this myth is just for its believers. There are several chapters of Jawa civilization. Each chapter has a legend where wahyu keprabon hided before entering to the chosen person. Then, the chosen person becomes Prabu/King/Leader/President (now). Seemingly, there are several wahyu keprabons in Jawa, each wahyu rises in different period of Jawa civilization.

Once upon the time, long before Mataram era (post Majapahit era), Jawa's wahyu keprabon was believed hided in Alas Purwo (Jungle Purwo). So, lots of ambitious men went to this jungle to meditate for getting the wahyu. Ken Arok was one of them. At the end of the day, Ken Arok became the founder of Singosari Kingdom and had a new title, namely Sri Rajasa. He was a king and a founder of new dynasti of kings of Jawa.

Post Majapahit era, some people believed that wahyu keprabon hided in jungle mentaok. Amongst the believers were Ki Agen Mataram, Ki Ageng Mangir and Sultan Hadiwijoyo (Joko Tingkir, he was a soft beleiver). At that period, there was a distinguished sunan. He was Sunan Giri (giri means mountain). Sunan Giri was believed having ability whatever he said would come true. Someday, there was a gathering in Sunan Giri's home. The visitors of that gathering were kings from several regions in Jawa. The aim of their visit to Sunan Giri was to get his blessing to rule Jawa. Amongst those kings was Sultan Hadiwijoyo (and his staff including Ki Ageng Mataram). While everyone enjoyed the party (eating and drinking... perhaps till they dropped), Ki Ageng Mataram took care the garbits wasted crelessly by drunken kings. Sunan Giri paid attention to his special action and asked to his guests who the man was. Sultan Hadiwijoyo responded that that man was one of his staf, namely Ki Ageng Mataram. Sunan Giri told that his descendants (Ki Ageng Mangir) would be rulers of Jawa.

Sultan Hadiwijoyo announced that whoever killed Aryo Penangsang would be rewarded territory wherever he wanted. After killing Arya Penangsang (I ), actually Sutowijoyo's Father (Ki Ageng Mataram) chose jungle mentaok as the reward. Because remembering Sunan Giri statement, Sultan Hadiwijoyo tried to cancel his promise and lured Ki Ageng Mataram to choose other rewards. In short, Ki Ageng Mataram got jungle mentaok. He had never declared as a king because he felt what Sunan Giri said was true. Wahyu keprabon would never for him but, hopefully, for his decendants. After living in jungle mentaok, he always urged Danang Sutowijoyo (Panembahan Senopati) to meditate to realize their dream. Where? in parts of jungle mantaok, especially in mBanglampir Hill, Dlepih Khayangan fountain and, sure, South Sea's coast. Based on history, in its golden era, Mataram territory was most of Jawa island (excluded Batavia and Banten which never surrended), South Kalimantan and Jambi of Sumatera (as vatsals).

As I mentioned above, no all Jawa people believed that Wahyu Keprabon hided in jungle mentaok. Lots of Kings in Jawa did not believe that. Even, they felt that their royal blood were purer than Ki Ageng Mataram's and they created their own myth to support their legitimation. Thats why they did not surrender freely to Mataram. Lots of their surrender were by bloody war. Logically, if they shared the same believe about the myth of wahyu keprabon of jungle mentaok, soon after Ki Ageng Mataram got jungle mentaok as a reward, they would knee unanimously and voluntarily to Ki Ageng Mataram's descendant (Mataram Kingdom).


Where is the next wahyu keprabon after post Majapahit era?

In Jawa modern era, it is believed (again only to its believers) that the wahyu keprabon is hiding inside Alas Ketonggo (if I am not mistaken it is near Solo).

If you follows recent Indonesian political saga, a lot of prominent politicians get (some are still waiting in long queue for getting) royal titles of Surakarta Kingdom. Frankly speaking, politically and factually, Surakarta Kingdom now is powerless (extremely, Kingdom Surakarta is only a history, no more exist). But why do so many giant Indonesian politicians try to get royal title from there. For nothing? No, there must be a motive in every political move. Some people believe that one of their motives is by having Jawa royal title they feel becoming eligible to get wahyu keprabon which is now still in Alas Ketonggo.

Surprisingly, now, this myth is not monopolized by Jawa people. Some of Solo royal title awardee are from other islands. To some extends, it becomes Indonesia myth (wider by its belivers)

Okay... it's better stopped here and back to keris discussion. Do not as why/where jungle ketonggo is whilst, now, there is not jungle anymore in Indonesia..... hahahahaaaa.... illegal logging and deforestation ARE NOT MYTHS in INDONESIA. Lets fight agianst... alle alle alle

warms regards,

Usmen

[David]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

It is a good question and it is hard to answer. I am afraid if we continue to discuss this matter (wahyu and hutan mentaok), we will break the rule of the game of warung keris. Why? Because the discussion will out of keris topic.

For eluding to be a trespasser (because breaking the law), I would like to ask the moderator (Sir David) and kerislovers to answer Penangsang's question once. So, after that hope we will be back on the track (no more of discussion on wahyu issues)

First of all i would like to thank you Usmen for elevating me to the rank of knighthood. Now i can mingle with the likes of Sir Elton John and Sir Paul McCartney.
I have always maintained that it is impossible to come to any proper understanding of keris in a vacuum. Discussions on subjects like these are therefore imperitive. You are not in violation of any forum rules with this discussion and i would incourage such conversation to continue so as to bring us to a deeper understanding of the Jawanese (and Indonesian) people and their culture(s).Without it an understanding of the keris will always remain elusive.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think the ball is in Pak Ganja's court now:-

Pak Ganja, can you please tell us whether it is the Surakarta school of "kerisology", or the Jogjakarta school of "kerisology" that follows most closely the traditions of olden times, be those olden times taken as Majapahit, Mataram, or some other era?

Dear Alan, Raden Usman, David, Penangsang and All,

Apologize me, for my late responding of Alan’s question. It’s been five days I was “off air” because of my total concentration for another business. Thanks a lot for your patience…

I am sorry Alan, I’d better choose “solo school” and “jogja school” instead of “kerisology”. Would you mind if I do that?

It is quite fair if we compare the cultural products of the best era of both schools. Especially in their keris world. The best of Paku Buwono era in keris making, was happened during the reign of their richest king, Susuhunan Paku Buwono X (1893-1939). Coincidentally, in Jogja, it happened in the same era, during the reign of their richest king too, of Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII (1877-1921).

It was the most peaceful era among the two “rivals”, between Jogja and Solo. And the golden era of Javanese palace royal dances, traditional music, and also keris making, happened too in the reign of these richest kings. One of the two consorts of king PB X, was GKR Hemas – the daughter of HB VII in Jogjakarta. King PB X had two consorts, and more than 34 mistresses. (At least, 34 mistresses had the royal descents…).

Someday, I hope to write more details on the comparison of the style of kerises from these two richest kings of Jogja and Solo. And better too, if I will be able to put the pictures of both era. Keris with tangguh PB X, has really different style with keris with tangguh HB VII. You may see, that kerises with tangguh HB VII was continuing the old style of the older Mataram – say it continuing some older forms from three styles of “older” Mataram: Mataram Senopaten, Sultan Agungan, or even Amangkuratan… (Mr Boedhy Adithya knows better than me on this popular style of Jogja keris). While kerises with tangguh PB X, are really "new" solonese type. The specific form of ganja, for instance, you may be able to recognize quite easily, that the style is real solonese type. Not older Mataram, nor Majapahit.

I hope, this simple explanation answers the question from Alan, for the time being…

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Dear Raden Usman,

Speaking about Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII, I'd like to hear the story about "Pendito Ratu" (Priest King?), and "lengser keprabon" (step down from the throne, before the king passed away) which was done by HB VII. After lengser keprabon, HB VII then stayed outside Kraton Jogjakarta. (Jogja then reigned by his son, HB VIII). The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

....The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ufff,
Elementary error.... it should be "a peace succession", instead of "piece"...

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Alan, Raden Usman........
Someday, I hope to write more details on the comparison of the style of kerises from these two richest kings of Jogja and Solo. And better too, if I will be able to put the pictures of both era.........
Ganjawulung

dear Ganja and kerislovers,

I am really eager to watch images of keris and tombak (spearhead) that are believed as PB X period (tangguh). Even I am eager to hold and to have it someday. Till now, I dont have any kerises and spearheads of PB X period.

So, it is highly appreciated if you may upload and share the images of kerises and tombaks of PB X period. Thnak you very much in advanced.

warm salam,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, once again a very beautiful answer, and one with content with which I concur, but once again, your answer does not come anywhere near addressing the question I am attempting to ask.

This is very embarrassing for me, because one of the cornerstones of my profession is the ability to ask questions clearly. Obviously have failed to do this.

I am in two minds as to whether to just let this matter pass, or to try again to phrase my question in a way that will be understood.After due consideration I have decided to try one more time.


I used the phrase "school of kerisology" to indicate the study, practice, beliefs of all things to do with keris. I did this because I did not want to narrow my question to one specific area of keris study nor practice, but to make my question as wide, and as flexible as possible. I have no real objection to use of the word "school" only, but in its normal interpretation in English, this word in this context is taken as applying principally to stylistic aspects of a particular art form.
My question is not directed specifically at the stylistic differences between keris made in Solo style, nor keris made in Jogja style.

I have absolutely no intention of seeking an answer in any way related to stylistic differences between Solo keris and Jogja keris.

My attempt at phrasing the question broadly , with the objective of allowing you room to move in providing an answer failed. It failed, I think, because I was insufficiently clear in respect of the specifics. You have answered in terms of keris physical style, but following on from the exchange that that has generated my further questioning, keris style is really not material to the original question.

To recap:-

On 31st. August, Pak Ganja posted this:-


"The edge of old keris, is usually "serrated" (pls correct me, if I used the wrong English term), because of age, and corrosion. In Solo, the practice of "mbesut" (smoothen the serrated edge, reshape the blade) is permitted. Of course, by the specialist of it. Matang is a wellknown specialist of mbesut practice in Kraton Solo. You may call, such old but reshaped keris as "keris besutan" or "keris larasan".

So, "mbesut" or "nglaras" (verb) keris, contains intention of reshaping, beautifying the corroded keris edge -- of course, without heat treatment. But for they who don't agree with such practice, may call such reshaped keris as "keris ongotan" (negative meaning). Ongotan means "sharpened", like pencil. (True) yogyanese, doesn't practice this..."


On 1st. September Penangsang asked :-

"---Which one of these two schools - Solo & Yogja, follow the tradition of old schools of say, Mataram era? I believe that I read it somewhere that Sultan Agung's time was actually the keris golden era.---"


On 1st. September Pak Ganja replied:-

"---Both "schools" follow most of the old tradition, and only different in certain aspects (sometimes totally different). In certain sense, Solo school is more modern.---"

Penangsang has now clarified his question, and I understand his question to cover all aspects of the keris. Since the original exchange which has generated my query clearly dealt specifically with one practice of keris maintenance which is carried out in Solo, but which is (supposedly) not carried out in Jogja, I shall now refine my question to address the specifics of only keris maintenance.

Please note:- I am not talking about keris style, I am talking about keris maintenance. I am not talking about keris making, I am talking about keris maintenance. I am not questioning present day practice of keris maintenance, I am questioning the tradition of keris maintenance as it applied in a previous era, which for the sake of this question, I shall fix as Mataram.

Pak Ganja, here is my question:-

Based upon your post of 31st August in which you state that certain practices of keris maintenance are acceptable in Solo, but unacceptable in Jogja, and upon your post of 1st. September in which you state that both Solo and Jogja follow old traditions, and in the full understanding that your post of 1st September was in response to a question raised on 1st September which set Mataram as the era to be taken as the point of reference to establish "old traditions", will you please respond to these questions:-

a) in the context of the above quoted posts, and bearing in mind that the Mataram era can be taken to cover a very long period of time, will you please provide a reference year for Mataram, as you intended "Mataram" to be understood in your response of 1st September which was directed at a question that specified "Mataram" as a point of reference.

b) are you able to provide any evidence of "old traditions" in respect of the way in which keris maintenance was carried out in, prior to, or about the year you have specified in your answer to question a).
By "evidence" I mean documentary evidence, or a verbal tradition that can be substantiated by supporting evidence of any kind.

I thank you for your cooperation in my attempts to clarify this for both myself, and for our readers. I had hoped to avoid interrogative questions of this nature, but it seems that when I try to be less than direct, I am also less than clear.

[A. G. Maisey]

I do apologise Pak Ganja, I failed to respond to this question of yours.

"So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of dhapur (jalak) budo?"

Please note that I quoted legend as the source for this.

I did not say that I believed this legend.

Of course, you may believe it if you wish, just as I believe that King Arthur pulled a sword from a lump of rock.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do apologise Pak Ganja, I failed to respond to this question of yours.

"So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of dhapur (jalak) budo?"

Please note that I quoted legend as the source for this.

I did not say that I believed this legend.

Of course, you may believe it if you wish, just as I believe that King Arthur pulled a sword from a lump of rock.

Dear Alan,
Do apologize me once again, if I respond to this matter first. This sounds very interesting for me, to hear an information -- that I considered new for me -- that the more sophisticated form of dhapur pasopati was created by Mpu Ramadi in the Javanese year of 152. Then a question raised in my mind: is dhapur pasopati older than keris (jalak) budo?

This is what I quote from the discussion in this post. Mr PenangsangII asked us like this:
And another stupid question, according to tangguhan, original dapor pasopati was created during which era?
And Alan respond in his post in the discussion:
According to legend, the Mpu who first made a keris dapur pasopati was Mpu Ramadi in the Javanese year 152.
PenangsangII asked more in the later post:
...though I have no idea how to guess what year exactly is Jawanese year 152...
Alan responded:
152 Saka would be around 230 AD in the Gregorian calender.
Then I asked Alan:
So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of (jalak) budo?
Alan responded later in one of his post:
Please note that I quoted legend as the source for this.
I did not say that I believed this legend.
Of course, you may believe if you wish, just as I believe that King Arthur pulled a sword from a lump of rock.

This info is something new for me, regarding that the form of pasopati which is more complicated than the form of simple dhapur of jalak budo. These pictures below are only showing the three kerises with dhapur pasopati, and one keris with dhapur jalak budo which is believed by most keris lovers in Java, as "the older form of keris" in the past...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, I suspect we may have a slight language difficulty here.

The fact that legend attributes dapur Pasopati to an origin in the year 152 Saka does not mean that dapur Pasopati is older than the buda form of keris.

It means only that according to legendary belief dapur Pasopati dates from Saka 152.

This is legend Pak Ganja. Legend. Legends can and sometimes do claim absolutely unbelieveable things. It is best not to confuse legend with fact.

Source of the information is the Damartaji reprint of "Buku Gambar Dhapuripun Dhuwung Saha Waos"

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Just one very minor thing needs to be made clear from Raden's post:- when a keris blade is subjected to normal maintenance procedures involving cleaning up an edge, or tidying up a ganja or kembang kacang, this is done cold, and it is only done after asking permission of the maker of the blade and any presence which may be inside the blade. We do not just pick the blade up, throw it into a fire, and take to it with hammer, tongs and electric grinder.Correctly carried out it is an almost religious ceremony.

dear,

Alan, I also heared that before cleaning and edging (and mbesut-ing/reshaping) there are sop (standard of procedure) or laku (english ?) including "nayuh". The result of this laku will used as a based whether the working should continue or not.

According to the legend of pasopati of mpu Ramadi, I would like to reveal some information based on Wayang. The name of Kiai Pasopati, Kiai Limpung, Kiai Nenggolo have been known in Wayang. If wayang were a legend (beleved as history not story). it should be long long before Christ even much long before Abraham the great grandpa of Christ.

Seemingly, the legend has been developing.
As Alan does beleived of the legend of King Arthur, I do believe of the legend of Mpu Ramadi just because I lived in the foot mountain Merapi mountain. It you visit Mountain Merapi, you will get more story about him. In some places, in hills and creeks, people believed some prominent spirits owned by Mpu ramadi living there till now, such as Ki Surenglogo et cetera et cetera et cetera

BUT, if someone states that what kind of keris pasopati created by Mpu Ramadi is similiar with Dhapur Pasopati what we know today, my stand is the same as Gonjowulung: DOUBTING with BIG QUESTION MARK.

In my opinion, Pasopati of Mpu Ramadi does not refer to the shape. However, it refers to the power of Mpu Ramadi's Pasaopati. The power of Mpu Ramadi's Pasopati was drawn as powerful as the (h)Arjuna's [?] Pasopati in Wayang. About the shape of that keris, none knows, because after spending much attention on the legend of its power, people neglected to specify the shape of the pusaka

If we read the ancient Jawa history, Mpu Ramadi was founder one of two prominent dynasties in Jawa. He lived in foot mountain of Merapi long before Pralaya (Merapi eruption dated so and so). At that time, area surrouding Merapi mountain in center of civilization in Jawa. Now, we can see on of its artifac: Borobudur & Prambanan temple. Actually, Borobudur temple was just medium size temple. There was bigger one but defastating by Pralaya. If I am not mistaken. Perhaps, what I said has big inaccuration. It is better someone here in this forum checks in library and corects what mistakes I did about Mpu Ramadi based on (accepted) History books. So, everyone will get truer information. Then we will be enlighted together. Sil vous plait?

merci beaucoup,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Usmen, if you believe the legends surrounding Empu Ramadi, as I believe the legends surrounding Arthur, then your belief is as mine:- rather fragile.

I am of the opinion that serious researchers into legend are in more or less general agreement that many, if not most legends have a basis in fact, but that basis may be very, very different from the legend as it stands at this point in time.

As I have already stated:- we should not confuse legend with fact.

All of these beliefs and legends are interesting, and provide useful background which will allow people to come to an understanding of the way in which many people in Jawa regard and feel about the keris. The legends are of anthropological value, but they are not of historic value, and bearing in mind that history itself is very often open to question, they can most certainly never be accepted as factual.

Let us be aware of the legends, but let us not confuse the legends with facts, nor with hypotheses which can be supported with logic or with evidence.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pak Ganja, I suspect we may have a slight language difficulty here.

The fact that legend attributes dapur Pasopati to an origin in the year 152 Saka does not mean that dapur Pasopati is older than the buda form of keris.

It means only that according to legendary belief dapur Pasopati dates from Saka 152.

This is legend Pak Ganja. Legend. Legends can and sometimes do claim absolutely unbelieveable things. It is best not to confuse legend with fact.

Source of the information is the Damartaji reprint of "Buku Gambar Dhapuripun Dhuwung Saha Waos"

Thanks a lot Alan, for your info. Not an important thing, but interesting for me. If you mention the title "Buku Gambar Dhapuripun Duwung Saha Waos" (Book on Dhapur Pictures of Kerises and Spear), then it must be the book that was written by the popular writer in Javanese literature, Raden Ngabehi Ronggowarsito.

Yes, the original copy of the book is now in the hand of Mr Haryono Guritno - the writer of Keris Jawa, Antara Mistik dan Nalar. But according to Damartaji (Keris Association of Jakarta) they never printed or even reprinted that Ronggowarsito book. Damartaji only printed, and reprinted the book "Dhapur" which keris illustration, was written by Kanjeng Gusti Pangeran Hario (KGPH) Hadiwijoyo -- an intelectual, son of the late King Paku Buwono X. He once studied in Leiden, Holland and had a vast knowledge on keris at that time. But this book on "Dhapur" did not mention on the creator of certain dapurs, such as pasopati.

For me it is interesting to know, that dhapur keris Pasopati actualy was created in the early era of the 3rd century... While, according to my "limiting belief" from oral tradition, keris (jalak) budo, and of course some other kinds of betok budo -- which has more simple details (ricikan) on keris, is one of the oldest form of Javanese keris. Some evidence (old kerises which bear dhapur betok or jalak budo), supposed to come from Singasari era (13th century), or earlier.

Pasopati -- straight keris with such sophisticated details of two sogokan, sekar kacang pogok (not a full kembang kacang), and double greneng or greneng sungsun -- is one of favorit dhapur among keris collectors.

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pak Usmen, if you believe the legends surrounding Empu Ramadi, as I believe the legends surrounding Arthur, then your belief is as mine:- rather fragile.

I am of the opinion that serious researchers into legend are in more or less general agreement that many, if not most legends have a basis in fact, but that basis may be very, very different from the legend as it stands at this point in time.

As I have already stated:- we should not confuse legend with fact.

All of these beliefs and legends are interesting, and provide useful background which will allow people to come to an understanding of the way in which many people in Jawa regard and feel about the keris. The legends are of anthropological value, but they are not of historic value, and bearing in mind that history itself is very often open to question, they can most certainly never be accepted as factual.

Let us be aware of the legends, but let us not confuse the legends with facts, nor with hypotheses which can be supported with logic or with evidence.

dear,

Absoltely, I agree with you.

Anyway, sometimes, even if we are a member of logic society, we should enjoy legends as they are. One of its benefit, it could make us feeling stonger.

Yeah, frankly speaking, some stories were told in holly books, they seem legends rather than facts. But as we tried to be a devoted lamb, we totally believe in. Moreover, factually, it makes us stronger to face with the fragile realm of the world. Human needs fantacy.

warm regards,

Usmen

[Raden Usman Djogja]

original was "dear"

revised is " dear Alan [and kerislovers]"

[A. G. Maisey]

No Pak Ganja, the book to which I refer is credited to KGPH Hadiwijaya.

The title of the original work is as I have given it, and noted thus in the introduction, but when Damartaji copied it and released it in 1998, they titled it as:- "DHAPUR, buku gambar bentuk keris dan tombak".

The original was dated 24 April 1920, and the date of the introduction to the Damartaji edition is 12 Februari 1998.

If we go to page 17 of this book, we will find dhapur pasopati (pasupati), illustration number 32.

The attribution for dhapur pasopati as shown on page 17 is:-

mitos/dongeng:-
Pemrakarsa---Sri Paduka Maharaja Budda;Empu---Ramadi; Tahun Jawa---152.

Regretably we cannot say that "---dhapur pasopati was actually created in the early era of the 3rd. century---"

We can only say that legend tells us that dhapur pasopati was created in the 3rd century.

There is a vast difference between the attribution given by legend, and when dhapur pasopati may have actually been created.

Pak Ganja, is there a possibility that you have been provided with slightly inaccurate information?

I'm quite certain of my information, as I have the book in question in front of me as I write.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Usman, I cannot disagree with what you have written.

All of life is simply an illusion, and a few fairy stories can make that illusion more comfortable to live in.

But sometimes some of us need to step outside the illusion and try to come to an understanding of what really happened, and when, and why. Those of us who choose to step outside the bubble---or are pushed--- pay dearly for this lack of wisdom.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

mitos/dongeng:-
Pemrakarsa---Sri Paduka Maharaja Budda;Empu---Ramadi; Tahun Jawa---152.

Regretably we cannot say that "---dhapur pasopati was actually created in the early era of the 3rd. century---"

We can only say that legend tells us that dhapur pasopati was created in the 3rd century.

There is a vast difference between the attribution given by legend, and when dhapur pasopati may have actually been created.

Pak Ganja, is there a possibility that you have been provided with slightly inaccurate information?

I'm quite certain of my information, as I have the book in question in front of me as I write.

You are right, Alan,

The book of Kanjeng Gusti Pangeran Haryo (KGPH) Hadiwijoyo you mentioned in previous posts, did say about Empu Ramadi and the dhapur pasopati. While the book I referred, was the "Dhapur" book which was published by Damartaji (written by Waluyo Wijayatno -- the secretary of Damartaji) but used the source of Mr Hadiwijoyo book. This book contains pictures only (the similar ilustration as Mr Hadiwijoyo book) but with captions only.

Yesterday, I met Mr Haryono Haryoguritno at his home in Rawamangun Jakarta for a certain project on keris. In our side conversation, we talked also on this matter. How could happen, such complicated dhapur as pasopati was created by Empu Ramadi in the Jawa year or 152? Raden Ngabehi Ronggowarsito -- in a different era -- even mentioned in his Book on Dhapur Keris and Tombak (spear) that Empu Ramadi made the dhapurs of pasopati, lar ngatap (straight keris with two sogokan until almost the tip of keris blade) and cundrik in the Jawanese year of 152...

Yes, it is only legend. Logically, according to Mr Haryono Haryoguritno, the dhapur of older keris might be as simple as dhapur betok, or brojol which has not too complicated details. But, figure like Raden Ngabehi Ronggowarsito in his days, had vast authority to say on many thing -- not only literature matters, but also on kerises, on other javanese traditions. He might be regarded as Mpu (Master) in almost everything including keris, although actually Ronggowarsito was not an expert in keris, for instance. So no wonder, if it could happened, he made mistake too...

So many things in keris knowledge, that need to be argued if we talk about "kerisology". On tangguh for instance. Why we regarded this keris as a keris made in Majapahit period, or Mataram period. Or even, made by Ki Nom, or Empu Singawijaya for instance. So many things in this keris world still need more precise information...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Pak Ganja, but its not really a matter of being right, or wrong.

This was just a matter of slight confusion:- you were talking about one Damartaji publication, I was talking about another, and we both did not know of the other publication.

No big deal, we're back on track now.

Yes, I agree that there are great holes in our supposed knowledge of keris. Perhaps the principal reason for this is the propensity of keris fanciers to take myth, legend, and popular belief as fact. Virtually all our so-called "knowledge" comes from later than the beginning of the 19th. century, yet early in the 19th. century Raffles observed the keris in Jawa at that time fulfilled a similar function to the small sword in Europe fifty years previously. That is, almost exclusively as an item of dress.The day of the origin of the keris was already 500 years or more back in history when people began to record the "knowledge". Go back 5 months in time and try to get a truly accurate fix on something, that can be supported with evidence.The only way to understand the keris in Jawa is to understand Jawa at the time during which we wish to understand the keris. For instance, to understand the position of the keris in Jawa in the year 2007, we need to understand Javanese culture and society in the year 2007. Take the parrallel:- to understand the keris in Jawa in , say, 1407, we need to understand Jawa in the year 1407.Not an easy thing.

The simple fact of the matter is that the keris is a Javanese icon, and as such is subject to a system of belief that accepts certain legend and myth as fact. Nothing wrong with that, it gives a lot of people comfort.In fact, even though logically I know that certain things to do with the keris are the product of belief, emotionally I am quite prepared to accept those things as true. But logically I am obliged to doubt them. It all depends what thought mode I am in.

You mention tangguh, and we know that an understanding of tangguh is essential for us to be able to gain a (Javanese) understanding of the keris, however, nobody ever speaks of how, when, and why this system of classification that we know as "tangguh" arose.Go back to the roots of tangguh, and many people might find a distasteful truth that they cannot accept.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You mention tangguh, and we know that an understanding of tangguh is essential for us to be able to gain a (Javanese) understanding of the keris, however, nobody ever speaks of how, when, and why this system of classification that we know as "tangguh" arose.Go back to the roots of tangguh, and many people might find a distasteful truth that they cannot accept.

My curiousity has been piqued .
I am all eyes and ears Gentlemen .

This has been a very enlightening discussion for me and I thank you all for participating; if we ever wind up this thread I believe it will be going to the 'Classics' file .

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Raden Usman,

Speaking about Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII, I'd like to hear the story about "Pendito Ratu" (Priest King?), and "lengser keprabon" (step down from the throne, before the king passed away) which was done by HB VII. After lengser keprabon, HB VII then stayed outside Kraton Jogjakarta. (Jogja then reigned by his son, HB VIII). The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ganjawulung

Dear Gonjo,

I am so sorry not responding your question soon because I must consider to answer or not for a while. My "data" is quite sensitive to be shared with, especially someone like you who have lots of friends in Djokja. I am sure that some of them are HB VII's offsprings. Who knows that even you are among them At least, who knows that in your blood flows Djokja royal blood.

Finally, I decide to share with you and kerislovers (as cultural background for understanding keris as David said)

According to HB VII.

Mainstream story is just the same as you have already mentioned.

However, other version goes to the opposite direction. HB VII was abdicated by Ndoro Tuan Eyang Wilhelmina (Dutch Colonial Administration). Then he moved (mesanggrah) to Pesanggrahan Ambarukmo.

The intrique during succession to HB VIII was not bloody but very cruel. The crown prince was dead suddently and mysteriously. Some believed he was possioned. The second candidate prince was afraid to face the strange situation. He was quite smart to survive but "unbravery" to race for winning a throne. He pretended becoming crazy/mad. As a result, the board considered that he was not eligible as King of Djokja. Then, other prince was chose as HB VIII.

The smart but "unbravery" prince was survive. His talent pretending to be someone else (a crazy man) was inherited by some of his offsprings. Now, there is a prominent Indonesian comedian who can imitate beautifully and perfectly other personalities (gestures and even sounds). Some people believe that he is one of great grandsons (?) of the smart prince mentioned above. I am sure that you know him and, perhaps, you have an opportunity to crosscheck the story I shared to him .

According to Pendito Ratu

Most people refers "Pendito Ratu" based on Kediri Kingdom, King Airlangga or Mahabharata Book (Jawa version): either Puntodewo in post-Great War era or Begawan Abiyoso in pre-Great War era. However, I dont have enough knowledge to tell about wayang (shadow puppet). Perhaps, we can ask KIAI CARITO to elaborate broadly about "lengser keprabon madheg pandhito" (stepping down from the throne becoming a priest)

warm salam,

Usmen

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Raden Usman.......

A piece succession in Jogja.

Ganjawulung

Dear Gonjo,

according to Peace succession

Nowadays, there is quite messy succession in Kasunanan Surakarta. There are two princes claiming as the legitimate PB XIII: Hangabehi and Tejowulan.

Some media-celebritists gave comment through newspapers, radios and tv channels urging these PB XIII to follow their ancestors way. Amongst media-celebritists, to follow their ancestors way means to make succession peacefully. However, the conflict during succession tends to erupt (perhaps, till now). Perhaps, to follow their ancestors way is interpreted by two competed princes as it was.

During Mataram Islam era, most succession was unpeace. The first king of Mataram (Panembahan Senopati) killed his eldest son (Raden Ronggo) for the purpose to create strong foundation of the new Jawa Dynasti. Raden Ronggo's divine power was unimaginable. Someone like him in the early of dynasti founding was needed in the battlefields. Meanwhile, as the eldest son of King, he has a legitimation if he demanded the throne.

For a King, giant divine power is not first requirement. Just like football, strikers like Henry and Ronaldo were needed in a team as goal makers in the game. But to be a king of Mataram, he had to have "corporate" thought. In Premiere League, someone like Sir Alex Ferguson or Arsene Wenger of Arsenal are "corporate" person/leader. Raden Ronggo did not have "corporate" thought. His Father decided a harsh way to eliminate him (by killing). According the legend, Panembahan Senopati asked the Queen of South Sea (genie) to take care of Raden Ronggo. Perhaps, it could be intepreted that Raden Ronggo's corpse threw away into the deep of South Sea (Hindia Ocean).

Once it begins, it will never stop. The successor of Panembahan Senopati was killed during deer hunting season and the new king was handicap since he was born. He was abdicated soon after his corronation replaced by Sultan Agung (Sultan the Great). The successor of Sultan Agung was a notorious man since he was young. The age of unpeaceful succession in Mataram is as old as Mataram Kingdom.

Previuos thread I shared about HB VII-VIII. Other story, there is an autobiography book of Partini. She was a daughter of Mangkunegoro VI. In her book, she told that her father (Romo Bagus, bagus means charming, beause his father was handsome) informing her that he juat became new Mangkunegoro. Mangkunegoro V was abdicated then "exciled" to Surabaja. In general, all of descendants of Mataram:Surakarta, Djokja, Mengkunegaran and Pakualaman "always" face the same situation during succession.

So... the legacy of unpeaceful succession, we can still see today. Even, it is beyond the wall of Jawa Palaces. Seemingly, the modern Indonesia follows Mataram ways If Indonesia human right activist was trully killed by arsenicum. Well... you all know arsenicum. It is called "warangan" to etching Keris and spear-head. Poisioning with arsenicum (warangan) was ancient way in Jawa. So... perhaps (assumed that Munir was killed), the killer is a kerislover...... just kidding mates

warm salam,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Incidentally, I perhaps should have mentioned this previously, but it has only now occurred to me that it could be something that is not common knowledge.

Pasopati is the usual Jawa spelling of Pasupati. Pasupati is another name for Rudra, the "lord of creatures", creatures in the more specific sense of livestock (pasu= livestock, pati=lord) . Of course, Rudra appears in the Vedas, and his attributes are what later developed into Siwa, who did not appear in the Vedas, so Rudra can be a name for Siwa, just as Pasupati is one of the names of Siwa. Thus, if we term a keris form "Pasupati", or "Pasopati", we are using a name of Siwa.

Gives one something to dwell upon, does it not?

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

The intrique during succession to HB VIII was not bloody but very cruel. The crown prince was dead suddently and mysteriously. Some believed he was possioned. The second candidate prince was afraid to face the strange situation. He was quite smart to survive but "unbravery" to race for winning a throne. He pretended becoming crazy/mad. As a result, the board considered that he was not eligible as King of Djokja. Then, other prince was chose as HB VIII.

The smart but "unbravery" prince was survive. His talent pretending to be someone else (a crazy man) was inherited by some of his offsprings. Now, there is a prominent Indonesian comedian who can imitate beautifully and perfectly other personalities (gestures and even sounds). Some people believe that he is one of great grandsons (?) of the smart prince mentioned above. I am sure that you know him and, perhaps, you have an opportunity to crosscheck the story I shared to him

Dear Raden,

This is more interesting for me. What I knew is only "sweet" story version. Just like "Nugroho Notosusanto" (Indonesian contemporary historian) told us about the "Orde Baru" (Indonesian New Era, Suharto era) story. Sweet Suharto...

Just like knowing the intriguing story behind The Beatles. Knowing the conflict between John Lennon vs Paul McCartney, after John married to Japanese Yoko Ono, was not less important than knowing the greatness of these Liverpool brats...

Ganjawulung

[PenangsangII]

Of course some information from our history were surpressed by the ruler of that time...info that would be detrimental to his throne especially. Even today, Dubya would surpress the info on how many civilian casualties in Iraq. I think that news surpression happens everywhere......

Pak Raden, I dont quite understand, why Raden Ronggo had to be sacrificed to the Ratu Laut Selatan. If he was so powerful, definitely he was an asset to the kingdom, wasnt he?

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

...The intrique during succession to HB VIII was not bloody but very cruel. The crown prince was dead suddently and mysteriously. Some believed he was possioned. The second candidate prince was afraid to face the strange situation. He was quite smart to survive but "unbravery" to race for winning a throne. He pretended becoming crazy/mad. As a result, the board considered that he was not eligible as King of Djokja. Then, other prince was chose as HB VIII.

The smart but "unbravery" prince was survive. His talent pretending to be someone else (a crazy man) was inherited by some of his offsprings. Now, there is a prominent Indonesian comedian who can imitate beautifully and perfectly other personalities (gestures and even sounds). Some people believe that he is one of great grandsons (?) of the smart prince mentioned above. I am sure that you know him and, perhaps, you have an opportunity to crosscheck the story I shared to him ....warm salam,

Usmen

Salam Raden Usman,

I think that you are refering to Gusti Djuminah, who would have been HBVIII but instead was put under house arrest (kurantil) untill he died short after the Japanese occupation.

Yes, Gusti Djuminah's descendants are still alive and active in the arts and culture scene in Yogya and Indonesia. And the story of their great grandfather is rather different from yours, there is no cowardise in the memory of the family.

I used to be a student of Bagong Kussudiardjo and his sons are friends of mine.

Salam hangat,
Bram