A large 19th century flintlock pistol - Page 4

Norman McCormick · 14th February 2021, 05:35 PM

Hi Richard,
I take it this is the mark you are referring to.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I've just read the whole of your post and of course it is the one you're referring to re your post no 53, I blame senility it's always a good get out clause.

rickystl · 15th February 2021, 03:45 PM

Interesting that most of these pistols you find today are still in good condition.
And there use seemed to have an abrupt end during the transition to the percussion era. I've never seen one that was converted to percussion. After about a 25 year run the pistol appears to have fallen out of favor with the various governments that purchased them creating a large surplus. There is hardly an antique gun auction today that doesn't have one or two for sale.

Rick

fernando · 15th February 2021, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

... There is hardly an antique gun auction today that doesn't have one or two for sale...

So true, Rick. However, contrary to what has been said here, i could swear i have read that these pistols were of fragile construction; could it be ?

rickystl · 16th February 2021, 06:55 PM

Hi Fernando

I have not read that anywhere, that I can remember. From a shooter's perspective, the locks, barrels, stocks and hardware are very solidly built.
Even the breech plug integrity to thick barrel wall is done well. Very much to European standards.

The only ones I've personally seen that are in lesser condition were due to latter, 20th Century neglect. Not many.

Rick

fernando · 16th February 2021, 07:46 PM

Rick, i have visited a zillion sources over this thread by the time; to find the one where i have (thought) i read mentioning such particular, would be like a needle in a haystack. Perhaps i have made some confusion; reason why i was asking if "it could be".
With the due respect for these specific pistols, it wouldn't be the first time that (some other) Liegeoise guns came buy with visible function weaknesses, s i had them in hand myself. But that is another story

.

Norman McCormick · 16th February 2021, 08:04 PM

Hi,
With regard to the fragility or otherwise of these pistols. The Liege one I have has obviously had the hammer repaired and also many years ago I dry fired one of these with flint in situ of course and the hammer broke in two. Maybe the quality of metalwork varies as I suspect there were many smaller manufactories turning these out by the barrel load.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 16th February 2021, 08:34 PM

Many many of pieces came out from Liege; the best ... and the worst. I have had both.

.

M ELEY · 16th February 2021, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
With regard to the fragility or otherwise of these pistols. The Liege one I have has obviously had the hammer repaired and also many years ago I dry fired one of these with flint in situ of course and the hammer broke in two. Maybe the quality of metalwork varies as I suspect there were many smaller manufactories turning these out by the barrel load.
Regards,
Norman.

Interesting you mention this, Norman, going back to this gun's primary function. Private purchase weapons were always made on the cheap, often to be used only in a pinch and often at the cheapest price a merchant captain (or board of directors) could get by with. Thus, on private purchase swords we see surplus m1803's, mismatched blades, blacksmith quality sheet metal guards, etc. It seems likely the guns would also be treated similarly. The swords were rolled out literally in barrels to arm the crew and the pistols taken down from racks to do likewise. These were not 'tenderly handled' gentlemen's pistols. They were practically never used unless attacking an enemy or defending their ship, unlike a military pistol in the field which would see much more action. Mine is extremely sturdy and apart from one time when I pulled the trigger and the hammer fell off(having 'fired' it many times without the flint like a dummy), it has been fine and I just tightened the screw holding the hammer in place.

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2021, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Interesting you mention this, Norman, going back to this gun's primary function. Private purchase weapons were always made on the cheap, often to be used only in a pinch and often at the cheapest price a merchant captain (or board of directors) could get by with. Thus, on private purchase swords we see surplus m1803's, mismatched blades, blacksmith quality sheet metal guards, etc. It seems likely the guns would also be treated similarly. The swords were rolled out literally in barrels to arm the crew and the pistols taken down from racks to do likewise. These were not 'tenderly handled' gentlemen's pistols. They were practically never used unless attacking an enemy or defending their ship, unlike a military pistol in the field which would see much more action. Mine is extremely sturdy and apart from one time when I pulled the trigger and the hammer fell off(having 'fired' it many times without the flint like a dummy), it has been fine and I just tightened the screw holding the hammer in place.

Capn, this is the best insight and perspective on the weaponry typically used on vessels yet, and literally describes the nature of the quality issues as well as reasons for it or lack therof. As we have discussed these pistols were often almost a 'one shot' deal, and became more of a bludgeon or projectile after the initial discharge. Obviously such weapons were inexpensive and suited the often limited budget of a vessel for such arms.
The unusual array of edged arms etc. reflects the use of various 'available' components often assembled by their armourers as well, and likely accounts for the anomalies you have often identified and discussed.

M ELEY · 17th February 2021, 06:42 AM

Hello Jim and thanks for your comments. I was just thinking about even the food that the sailors were subjected to as a reference to the penny-pinching involved in the navies and ships of the era. Pursers were often the most reviled crewmates on a ship, frequently known to skim off the top to pocket the extra money while serving tripe to the sailors! A little off-topic, I know, but the same principles were always in place! Much like today's industries, lowball the bid to get the biggest bang for the buck!

Norman McCormick · 27th March 2021, 07:39 PM

Hi,
Got a reply from the Belgian Military Museum. Not a Belgian service weapon, possibly a trade pistol and may have been used in the mercantile marine. Didn't get any info re the numerous stamps on these type pistols. Not really anything we didn't already know apart from maybe the definitive statement that it was not a Belgian service weapon. I asked if Belgian long arms of the first part of the 19thC were of the same bore as the pistol i.e. .69 as Dutch and French service issue muskets were and I thought there may have been some crossover with Belgian long arms and this pistol, didn't get a reply to this question. Hope this is of some use re this elusive pistol.
Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 28th March 2021, 06:08 AM

Thank you, Norman, for clarifying some of the questions with these pistols. I always thought it a little strange that a Belgian pistol made by a land-locked country would have a need for a naval pistol, barring foreign legion use. At least we know that these were absolutely for export and probably only used for private purchase via mercantile markets. As a 'private purchase' (i.e. cheaply-made!) and merchant-class, it explains why these guns are plain-Janes and not necessarily perfect. As a maritime collector, this doesn't distract from the interest for me in these types and the places they might have ended up! China Sea trade, clipper ships in Malay waters, mutinies in the South Pacific! Still very exciting stuff!

Norman McCormick · 28th March 2021, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I always thought it a little strange that a Belgian pistol made by a land-locked country would have a need for a naval pistol

AHEM!!!

M ELEY · 29th March 2021, 04:36 AM

OPPS!!!

That's what I get for not remembering my geography! In any case (!), NOT Belgian naval piece. As I have never really heard of the Belgian navy, just the sheer amount of these pistol-types is a statement as to the obvious exports of said item.

Now, a recap please of all known nations that actually used this type for their merchant ships? England we know for sure. France as well. Any Norwegian/Danish? They were certainly involved during the Napoleonic period.

14th February 2021, 05:35 PM	#91
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Richard, I take it this is the mark you are referring to. My Regards, Norman. P.S. I've just read the whole of your post and of course it is the one you're referring to re your post no 53, I blame senility it's always a good get out clause. Attached Images

27th March 2021, 07:39 PM	#101
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Got a reply from the Belgian Military Museum. Not a Belgian service weapon, possibly a trade pistol and may have been used in the mercantile marine. Didn't get any info re the numerous stamps on these type pistols. Not really anything we didn't already know apart from maybe the definitive statement that it was not a Belgian service weapon. I asked if Belgian long arms of the first part of the 19thC were of the same bore as the pistol i.e. .69 as Dutch and French service issue muskets were and I thought there may have been some crossover with Belgian long arms and this pistol, didn't get a reply to this question. Hope this is of some use re this elusive pistol. Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 27th March 2021 at 08:09 PM.

15th February 2021, 03:45 PM	#92
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Interesting that most of these pistols you find today are still in good condition. And there use seemed to have an abrupt end during the transition to the percussion era. I've never seen one that was converted to percussion. After about a 25 year run the pistol appears to have fallen out of favor with the various governments that purchased them creating a large surplus. There is hardly an antique gun auction today that doesn't have one or two for sale. Rick

16th February 2021, 06:55 PM	#94
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Fernando I have not read that anywhere, that I can remember. From a shooter's perspective, the locks, barrels, stocks and hardware are very solidly built. Even the breech plug integrity to thick barrel wall is done well. Very much to European standards. The only ones I've personally seen that are in lesser condition were due to latter, 20th Century neglect. Not many. Rick

16th February 2021, 07:46 PM	#95
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Rick, i have visited a zillion sources over this thread by the time; to find the one where i have (thought) i read mentioning such particular, would be like a needle in a haystack. Perhaps i have made some confusion; reason why i was asking if "it could be". With the due respect for these specific pistols, it wouldn't be the first time that (some other) Liegeoise guns came buy with visible function weaknesses, s i had them in hand myself. But that is another story .

16th February 2021, 08:04 PM	#96
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, With regard to the fragility or otherwise of these pistols. The Liege one I have has obviously had the hammer repaired and also many years ago I dry fired one of these with flint in situ of course and the hammer broke in two. Maybe the quality of metalwork varies as I suspect there were many smaller manufactories turning these out by the barrel load. Regards, Norman.

16th February 2021, 08:34 PM	#97
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Many many of pieces came out from Liege; the best ... and the worst. I have had both. .

17th February 2021, 06:42 AM	#100
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Jim and thanks for your comments. I was just thinking about even the food that the sailors were subjected to as a reference to the penny-pinching involved in the navies and ships of the era. Pursers were often the most reviled crewmates on a ship, frequently known to skim off the top to pocket the extra money while serving tripe to the sailors! A little off-topic, I know, but the same principles were always in place! Much like today's industries, lowball the bid to get the biggest bang for the buck!

28th March 2021, 06:08 AM	#102
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thank you, Norman, for clarifying some of the questions with these pistols. I always thought it a little strange that a Belgian pistol made by a land-locked country would have a need for a naval pistol, barring foreign legion use. At least we know that these were absolutely for export and probably only used for private purchase via mercantile markets. As a 'private purchase' (i.e. cheaply-made!) and merchant-class, it explains why these guns are plain-Janes and not necessarily perfect. As a maritime collector, this doesn't distract from the interest for me in these types and the places they might have ended up! China Sea trade, clipper ships in Malay waters, mutinies in the South Pacific! Still very exciting stuff!

29th March 2021, 04:36 AM	#104
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	OPPS!!! That's what I get for not remembering my geography! In any case (!), NOT Belgian naval piece. As I have never really heard of the Belgian navy, just the sheer amount of these pistol-types is a statement as to the obvious exports of said item. Now, a recap please of all known nations that actually used this type for their merchant ships? England we know for sure. France as well. Any Norwegian/Danish? They were certainly involved during the Napoleonic period.