Bosnian Bichaq

[Ren Ren]

Thank you! The hanging ring (or lack thereof) is an important part of the scabbard design. But the back of the scabbard is not often seen in the photo.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Thank you! The hanging ring (or lack thereof) is an important part of the scabbard design. But the back of the scabbard is not often seen in the photo.

additional: for the more richer ones, a leather belt was an option. Multiple functions:
1. to protect the clothes when on display for offical celebrations and occassions
2. support carrying plural weapons ( pistols, bichaqs and yataghans)
3. provide support and relief of the total weight
4. comfort when riding a horse ( and avoid risk losing a valuable weapon)

@Detlef: see, a nice example of a yataghan without the fancy decoration of coral and stones but simple handle of metal and bone only

[Ian]

Originally Posted by gp

additional: for the more richer ones, a leather belt was an option. Multiple functions:
1. to protect the clothes when on display for offical celebrations and occassions
2. support carrying plural weapons ( pistols, bichaqs and yataghans)
3. provide support and relief of the total weight
4. comfort when riding a horse ( and avoid risk losing a valuable weapon)

@Detlef: see, a nice example of a yataghan without the fancy decoration of coral and stones but simple handle of metal and bone only

Gp, I could be wrong but the hilt on that yataghan looks like ivory to me. Very nice tooling on the leather pouch and belt.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ian

Gp, I could be wrong but the hilt on that yataghan looks like ivory to me. Very nice tooling on the leather pouch and belt.

Hello Ian,

it could well be an ivory one. If your expertise determines it as ivory I shall not contradict. Most of the Balkan yataghans (this one is from Dalmatia) were made from buffalo or ox bone but a few of ivory. My knowledge of the latter is very limited.
Indeed quite some craftmanship on the leather but that has a long tradition in that region ( as with their filigree)

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by gp

new family member...
unfortunately no scabbard but interesting the "w" or "m" type of motives one normally finds on the copper scabbard, are here found on the ferrule


Total length: 28 cm. - 11 inch
Blade length: 18 cm. - 7 inch
Handle made from (buffalo or ox) bone

your comments please...thank you

A very interesting new family member
If it were not for the typical Balkan design of the hilt with brass inserts, then in the shape of the blade and fullers, I would have seen a Surmene knife.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Saracen

A very interesting new family member
If it were not for the typical Balkan design of the hilt with brass inserts, then in the shape of the blade and fullers, I would have seen a Surmene knife.

you are not 100% but 1000% correct and exactly the same was my thought as well.
And both of us might be wright and wrong as the determination of origin is indeed not based upon pure mathematical science, not being the same of or no deduction of certain region's characteristics.

Please allow me to elaborate: it would be too simple to explain it by the interaction of people moving around in the Ottoman empire as blacksmith both in the Ottoman empire and in Europe as well, were neither well to do nor had the ambition or freedom to move around...even if they would wish to.
In general they would earn a good living where they were in the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th century.

A small exception could however have caused this : between 1860 and 1878, also in 1918 the Ottoman empire was shaken and quite a lot of people moved, some forcibly (a form of ethnic cleansing) whilst others voluntarily moved from east to west and west to east; from the Balkans to the Ottoman / Turkish territory or vice versa as states were created in the Balkans
Obviously talking with them their cultural heritage. So you can find in present Turkey quite a lot peoples from plural national backgrounds / roots (Bosnian but also Greek). And the otherway around from the Black Sea erea, so also the Surmene / Sürmene region folks might have or had moved to the Balkans and with the cold weapons tradition in Bosnia it was easy for a Blacksmith Master /Majster to fit in and perhaps occassionally produce such a dagger. Still it doesn not exclude that it is either a fake or a Surmene copy of a Bosniak of that time....

Although I know a lot about the "Bosniaks" you can never be sure but I was more than willing & prepared to take the risk and add it to my collection. As you said it has too many details which could place it in Bosnia....if not...hard luck but still a very nice dagger Thank you for your comment, which is highly appreciated and confirmed my thoughts as well :
well done and my respect !!!

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by gp

A small exception could however have caused this : between 1860 and 1878, also in 1918 the Ottoman empire was shaken and quite a lot of people moved, some forcibly (a form of ethnic cleansing) whilst others voluntarily moved from east to west and west to east; from the Balkans to the Ottoman / Turkish territory or vice versa as states were created in the Balkans

Thank you for explaining this possible borrowing between Bosnian knife and Surmene knife.
Sometimes they have a very similar decor of the handle, but even the blade characteristic for of the surmene knife does not allow us to confidently determine their origin. It would be very interesting to know more about these similarities.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Saracen

Thank you for explaining this possible borrowing between Bosnian knife and Surmene knife.
Sometimes they have a very similar decor of the handle, but even the blade characteristic for of the surmen knife does not allow us to confidently determine their origin. It would be very interesting to know more about these similarities.

I agree and also am looking for info or sources to learn more on this topic.
Most of my sources are from the former Yugoslavia / their successor states (Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia) also Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey...
but unfortunately the attention ( also by the Anglo-Saxon and German / Austrian authors of cold weapons ) focusses more to the "big" and more fancy ones likes yataghans and hardly or to a lesser degree on these kind of knives (bichaq in Turkish, kama and cakija in Slav languages).
90% of my info dates from publications between 1880 to 1980 and a few are recent ones but sadly nothing new or more on these types of "potential" cross-over ...and contacting folks in the mentioned regions does not result in much new info on the smaller knives...

Even authorities like Vejsil Ćurčić ( around the 1920ies) , Marija Šercer (around the 1970ies) and Tarik Kožo (around 2010ies) do not go into that detail sadly...

[gp]

to add more to the above, the newest cousin in my "Bosanceros"☺ collection.

Although it doesn't have the yataghan-like ears or curl with stubs which in combination with the bone handle and circular ornament are typical Bosnian, this one has a "flat"end of the handle as one sees with more Ottoman cold weapons but due to the handle's details ( red stone and circular ornament ) is certainly Bosnian..
The blade is 20 cm long and the writing in silver is 18.. and could be Sarajevo. It is made prior the Habsburg occupation I believe from around 1850 -1870.
Sadly no scabbard...

[gp]

this one, with scabbard and blade 17 cm Sarajevo 1887 written in silver, looks like the white bone version of Gonzoadler's green one

[gp]

although I do not prefer damaged daggers, an exception if one stumbles on something rare or not often found like this Bosnian dagger

lenght dagger 20,8 cm
Blade : 11 cm
handle made from horn
silver one-sided writting Foca 1890

sadly one circular ornament missing and a small horn piece as well
the rarity for me is the Foca name and unyataghan-like form of the top of the handle
.
What are your thoughts ?
Should I also repair the missing piece of horn ?

[gp]

notwithstanding the enormous response ....
I decided to leave it as it was and not to repair the broken part by filling / replacing the hole by new horn material.

Another nice Bosnian bichaq, pre Habsburg era is this one with a leather strap, 29 cm long

[gp]

some more pics. What do you think about this bichaq ?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by gp

notwithstanding the enormous response ....
I decided to leave it as it was and not to repair the broken part by filling / replacing the hole by new horn material.

Another nice Bosnian bichaq, pre Habsburg era is this one with a leather strap, 29 cm long

Hi

Why do you think your knife is Bosnian?

I have a small book about Balkan knives.

It is a nice book but 20% of the knives published are not from the Balkans, they are Turkish, Kurdish and North Africans.

Be carefull your post is turning like the Omani khanjar thread: a catamonologue or a monocatalogue...


Kind regards,
Kubur

[gp]

Why my friend?

Simple: based upon literature I quoted and my knowledge...

Before I joined this forum, to my big surprise, concering Bosnian cold weapons, I only read "I think" ....but hardly any comments based upon knowledge...
Nothing of books and publications like the ones I quoted ( between 1880 to the present day).

Try Kozo (270 pages and published in 2010! and in English...). If you would have consulted Kozo and the by my quoted sources, you would have known the answer and not have come up with a premature assumption...

Just check my contributions and the literature I mention. One might learn a little bit

FYI: many publications are not only from the former Yu(goslavia) but also Bulgaria and Romania. A lot in English but when not, the pics and name "Bosna" will tell you the answer.Even the ones in cyrillic...

Also the much refered Elgood here...got most of his Balkan knowledge from a Serbian lady who was and still is leading when it comes down to Balkan cold weapons knowledge: she wrote 3 books! Guess a few to no one here know her name

To give you one criterium: the decoration on top of the blade... But obviously that's not the only one, more criteria are present...

My knowledge on other arms is virtually zero, so I do cherish and treasure the comments as I do learn a lot but on Bosnian cold weapons I dare say few here can match my knowledge. No disrespect intended

My intentions were pure; to share my knowledge and educate folks here. If that offends you, I am sorry and apologize for that inconvenience and shall refrain from entering further comments and leave it gladly up to you and other big shots to advise and judge on Balkan arms ☼☺☼ Nema problema as they say in Bosna

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by gp

My intentions were pure; to share my knowledge and educate folks here.

Your thread is very useful and informative, we are all obsessed by something. No worries here...

But we are all the same and a forum is for discussion.

Being from Bosnia or the Balkans doesn't make you more knowledgeable than others.

Originally Posted by gp

Try Kozo (270 pages and published in 2010! and in English...). If you would have consulted Kozo and the by my quoted sources, you would have known the answer and not have come up with a premature assumption...

It is the book that I have Kozo!
It's a nice book but as I said 20% of the knives are not from the Balkans. So if it is your reference then you might be mistaken.

Originally Posted by gp

To give you one criterium: the decoration on top of the blade... But obviously that's not the only one, more criteria are present...

My knowledge on other arms is virtually zero, so I do cherish and treasure the comments as I do learn a lot but on Bosnian cold weapons

This is a good example, the decoration on top of the blade can be found in many countries of the Ottoman empire.

So as you wrote, your knowledge on other arms is virtually zero...
My friendly advice would be: read on other countries otherwise all you will see in the Balkans will be from the Balkans...
Many Russians and Caucasians are doing the same mistake.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Your thread is very useful and informative, we are all obsessed by something. No worries here...

But we are all the same and a forum is for discussion.

Being from Bosnia or the Balkans doesn't make you more knowledgeable than others.



It is the book that I have Kozo!
It's a nice book but as I said 20% of the knives are not from the Balkans. So if it is your reference then you might be mistaken.



This is a good example, the decoration on top of the blade can be found in many countries of the Ottoman empire.

So as you wrote, your knowledge on other arms is virtually zero...
My friendly advice would be: read on other countries otherwise all you will see in the Balkans will be from the Balkans...
Many Russians and Caucasians are doing the same mistake.

I am neither from Bosnia nor the Balkans, please do read my contributions before you judge...
again stop assuming & judging prematurely

Nor do you comment the other books and publications I mentioned ...
Pick out 1 item to prove you're correct.
Nice discussion technique for discrediting some one (actually 1 of the 9 manipulation techniques in psychology) but doesn't impress me ...

I leave the stage to you if that makes you feel good and a big boy

[Battara]

Guys I'm going to stop this right here.

It is one thing to debate the issues, it is another to get nasty and overreact. We are moving in that direction so I will call for a break and take a breath. Going any further in personal attacks or responses will bring consequences............

Thank you.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by gp

My intentions were pure; to share my knowledge and educate folks here.

Thank you for the interesting information, sources and examples of Bosnian bichaqs that you share here.
It is always very interesting and useful to learn new things from a person who is specially and in depth dealing with a certain narrow topic, and it would probably be very good if the discussions in your topics were more active.
I will venture give the conversation some impetus:
I think that the decoration of the scabbard and handle of this knife a typical for Bosnian bichak zigzag hatching may refer it to this family.

[gp]

a nice piece of hand craft and art is this filigree (sterling) dagger belt buckle I recently purchased.

From filigree perspective it looks like Dalmatian, Bosnian or Montenegrin.
Also similar like the type of sterling brooch I found in Sarajevo, Kotor or Dubrovnik in the 1980ies .

This one looks the same, although the brooches were without the 2 dots on the grip. Looking close at the silver dots on the "bichaq" they might indicate as well a Caucasian origin like the grip of a kama / shalta / khanjali ...but these again do not have the curved blade as the Balkan bichaq or Ottoman handzjar... the dots could also be functional as a kind of support / firmness (which makes sense...)

Still a nice piece of art dating back to a wide period of 1880-1960 to hang above the Bosnian kama, bichaq and yataghan

[Gonzoadler]

Hello,

I think the miniature dagger of the belt is not a Kama or Khanjar, I would say it is a Bebut. These daggers are similar to Kamas and Kindjals, but they have a curved blade.

Regards
Robin

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by gp

a nice piece of hand craft and art is this filigree (sterling) dagger belt buckle I recently purchased.

From filigree perspective it looks like Dalmatian, Bosnian or Montenegrin.
Also similar like the type of sterling brooch I found in Sarajevo, Kotor or Dubrovnik in the 1980ies .

This is a Russian buckle. Buckles of this kind were often made of niello silver and often bore the inscription “Caucasus”.
But there were buckles just like yours:
https://www.vitber.com/lot/31228

Dagger - "bebut"

[gp]

Originally Posted by mahratt

This is a Russian buckle. Buckles of this kind were often made of niello silver and often bore the inscription “Caucasus”.
But there were buckles just like yours:
https://www.vitber.com/lot/31228

Dagger - "bebut"

Bolshoj spassiba. Very nice pieces, especially the one in the link and last picture: beautiful !
Guess they all are 84 zolotniki?

And guess I must now buy a Russian dagger to go with it….
bozje moj….again spending money...dawaij dawaij, pasjli pasjli ….:-)

Question for advice:


I found this description:

"Bebut – curve Caucasian dagger, which became widely known in the early 20th century, when it was adopted by the Russian army. The dagger is different curved shape and large size.
The origin of the dagger .

Curved blades – the hallmark of the East. And bebut is no exception, since it is originally a traditional Caucasian dagger. The name of the blade “bebut” comes from the Turkic word, which means “thigh”.

It’s hard to say when the story of this dagger began. It was spread only in the early twentieth century, when it became part of the armament of the Russian army. Presumably, the “ancestor” of the blade of such a shape is a curve or Persian Ottoman dagger.

In the late 19th century dagger Bebut was in use among the Cossacks. If the flat dagger was armed with all without exception, the curved blade was chosen by the scouts, since the thin and long blade provided the convenience of carrying a cold weapon in any situation.

Bebut is officially known since 1840 as part of the uniform of the Kuban Cossacks, but its history is much older. In General, earlier called the Bebut any dagger with a curved end on the blade, while now under this name is understood as “Bebut” model 1907.
Bebut in the Russian army

Cossack Bebut came into the Russian army in 1907. At this time there is a need for more weapons to replace the authorized artillery pieces. A knife with Bebut was easier to wield than a sword, besides, its form is considerably easier.

In the first years of the Bebut armed with only the higher ranks, but beginning in 1909 artillery Bebut was made available to all military. Despite the lack of tradition use daggers in Russian army, curved blade quickly became an indispensable part of weaponry.

In subsequent years, on the choice of this dagger did not have to regret, because the curved blade proved itself as a cutting, chopping and as a weapon. This is due to the peculiarities of the blade, its shape and methods of sharpening."

My question concerns the mentioning of the Kuban Cossacks: would this dagger thus be different from the dagger of the Zaporozhian Cossacks?

If so: what dagger would the Zaporozhian Cossacks have and use ?

[G. Mansfield]

Here is one to add for the records, acquired a few weeks ago from a friend.

-Geoff

[Ren Ren]

One of the most interesting knives I've seen in the past few years.

[Battara]

Gents, I love the belt buckles!

And that bichaq - Beautiful! Stunning! Is the hilt made of ivory and the scabbard silver"?

And by the way, if you ever want to throw this away please let me know (I'll now go back to hiding behind the trash cans )

[gp]

Originally Posted by Battara

Gents, I love the belt buckles!

And that bichaq - Beautiful! Stunning! Is the hilt made of ivory and the scabbard silver"?

And by the way, if you ever want to throw this away please let me know (I'll now go back to hiding behind the trash cans )

the scabbard is silver and the hilt could be ivory but also very fine quality horn

looks quite similar like this Bosnian one:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...8&postcount=67

[Battara]

Upon closer inspection the material looks like really good quality bone and beautifully carved!

[gp]

a new addition to my collection but a strange one :

first the year 1879: 1 year after the conquering and annexation of Bosnia by Habsburg...not often seen
Secondly the style of the blade is more like the Ottoman yataghan (a wave-like type) compared to the later more dagger-like type ( almost European)
Third., the hilt, handle which has no similarity with the yataghan types ( sadle, ears, etc) but looks more like the joint-end of a bone being carved in a fancy "animalistic" decorated way...(?); never seen something like this but that doesn't mean anything...
Last but not least the decoration on the hilt / handle / grip clearly differs from other types which can be seen here in several threads.( with the exception of the 2 circles)

Have you seen or met this type before ? Do you have one in your collection? Can you advise or have knowledge about this one ?

[gp]

and the last pics .
what do you think ? Might it be a local trying to be creative, an apprentice first trying his skills or somethin else...?
I honestly wouldn't know but think it interesting nevertheless