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#91 | |
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Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary ![]() Regards! |
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#92 |
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[QUOTE=David.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. ![]() ![]() My comment on Innocents were teasing. ![]() ![]() i doubt if many arms collecters & dealers or indeed that many human biengs in the western world are realy that innocent. Religous upbringing can leave some recognisable traits & beliefs on occasion though, despite ones rebelion against them. Spiral |
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#93 | |
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I took it as your could see how Esmeralda could be seen as a suitable subject for a occult knife. But I know realise your full point. Thankyou. Spiral |
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#94 | |
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I agrre opinions are worthwhile in a discusian, I just recognise in science they are & law they are niether empirical evidence nor expert oppinion. {in US legal terms.} I agree the point about Esmerelda could have some validity. As I stated to Katana earlier post. Spiral |
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#95 | |
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as intresting as the dagger you show is it clearly is not a cast figural handled 19th century piece. So even if i could make out the scabbard figures is still not the type of knife in questian. I realise you recognise & mentian that. I have a figurative handled stassknive by Louen, Norways most estemed church carver & 19th century knife maker, but although , the scabbard would illustrate my point yet again , I havent shown it as evidence as the handle although figual is carved hollywood , not cast. i look forward to your pictures of 19th century cast figural handles. Not all the animals behead in Nepal are tied & held, some are certanly particularily bulls to allow the kukri or kora aim to fall between the vertabrae rather than a direct hit in the middle of the bone. {Ive been there & seen it done.} But if you watch muslims slaughter animals for Halal meat they just do the animals throat , some can even do it while petting the animal to lull it into a sense of security & or treat it with respect ![]() The picture does show John Powell & an unamed forumite from here who JP wouldnt sell that kukri to for $12000, on principle because he thought it should come to an approriate home for such a piece for, a tiny fraction of that sum. {I do have written permision to post that forumites photo & the price discussed is already in the public domain on the internet.} its just a private joke realy. ![]() Spiral |
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#96 | |
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Thankyou for your opinions, the leaders of French,German & indeed English satanic groups in the 19th century were generaly from the aristocracy. Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard. Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions. Spiral |
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#97 | |
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In many cultures evil looking creatures are put up by the good guys to defend them from the real evil creatures OR to placate the evil creatures so they leave the good guys alone. I think that we see much more of this than we see people actually worshipping demonic spirits. In Bali, for instance, offerings are made to demons that contain rotten foods because they think that is what the demons would like to have. Make the demons happy and they may leave you alone and also chase away other demons. It is all in your perspective and frame of reference. For instance if you make friends with a vicious dog in your home, he will protect you. BUT to a person outside, your vicious dog may appear to be demonic. Where black is a India color of happiness, white is their color for death. It is very difficult to understand another culture's symbols without a deep study fo their culture, religion and history. Even then it can be terribly misunderstood. Even Margaret Mead made some mistakes. Often, the actual natives themsleves don't understand time honored rituals and symbols. Reading a marvelous book, "Shields of Melanasia" where questions were asked about why certain devices and synbols are still being used. The natives don't know anymore. They say they use them because "they always have." I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot and am impressed (again) by the breadth, depth of knowledge and elucidation of the members here. Last edited by Bill Marsh; 11th January 2007 at 04:03 PM. |
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#98 | |
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Tim I am sure as you say you have made many mistakes in your purchases, as you say I have seen you post some here & if you read "The art of Rhinocerous horn carving in China " by Jan Chapman you may possibly spot another couple you havent yet realised. ![]() I must have been much luckier to date or do more reserch on most things I collect. {The first year or two of my arms collecting I made varois errors due to lack of expierence , knowledge & research etc. that what taught me the value of research, evidence & expert oppinion rather than "joe bloggs" opinion. If this ever turns out to be a typicle example of a non occult 19th centry piece, with its cast figural handle & scabbard, I will still be delighted to keep it. It is the piece itself I appreciate. i doubt if I will ever see another such piece. This thread prooves its rarity. & After all I picked it up for a mere 12 portions of fish & chips & curry sauce. ![]() ![]() I wonder if you could cast & chase a one piece scabbard like that? using 19th century technology? or is 19th century "fracklin mint" rather tricker if you put your proffesional head on? I worked in casting as a youth, before deciding to move on to other feilds that I find more, spiritualy,intelectualy & indeed socialy rewarding. But I did enjoy it at the time. Spiral |
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#99 |
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Hmm the great fact I was going to shatter your argument with ain't no good Spiral. First of, what I now found is a true Gothic dagger as in Mediaeval. Secondly it's ivory not cast...third it actually supports your argument, the figures are seen upright...so much for that. anyway here's the pic for interest...all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. It shows dragons which is indeed a satanic symbol in mediaeval Christian iconography, and some sort of Cerberus too.
Will keep looking for an appropriate cast 19th c. example... Emanuel |
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#100 | |
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Re. "Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere." That is tottaly & radicaly mistaken veiw of me, without foundation or substance. Although I realise judging someone so arbritarily from are limeted online encounters could easily allow for such errors. I work in fields that fully understand human projection, transferance etc. & although Gestalt in nature apprecite that evidence is usefull when looking at peoples opinions especialy those that have roots to thier childhoods. Spiral |
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#101 | |
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Good & valid points Bill. ![]() Spiral |
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#102 | |
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An intresting piece Manolo, thankyou. Spiral |
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#103 | |
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This is becoming more and more interesting. I always thought inverted crosses were satanic. Like the inverted pentacle is for black magic. Never even heard of the cross of St Peter. Very interesting. I'm looking for more of an introductory book and from a respected author in the field. ![]() |
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#104 | |
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Spiral, I think that you are mistaking David's wry sense of humor (humour) here. In written communication we miss a great deal. Tempo, intonation, body language which are the major elements in communication. Maybe we can cut each other a little slack? |
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#105 | |
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Your correct, I recognise that what I said about internet communication is a true for me as it is for others. I must admit I was also partialy bieng rather tounge in cheek playing a debating card as well, as I took Davids comment as realy bieng in the same spirit. Humour is good. ![]() ![]() Spiral |
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#106 | |
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[QUOTE=spiral]
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As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ??? Quote Wikipedia The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ. It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants) During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi |
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#107 |
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I feel compelled to show how these classical and occult images are still in use today on prestige artifacts. These two could collect sacrificial blood except they were made for the worshipful company of lightmongers. Casting, chasing tools and methods have not changed in millennium. As for a spirtual quest I find just picking my feet enough
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#108 |
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I believe that ‘Satanic’ daggers exist but I have a few observations….
Firstly, a dagger used in Black Magic Rites would surely be greatly revered by the practitioners. As the dagger is continually used wouldn’t the ‘believers’ feel that the dagger would increasingly become imbued with ‘evil power’ and its significance increase? If so, why would these daggers be available to collectors? These could be likened to ‘Religious Relics’ …..afterall Satanism IS a RELIGION in true context. Secondly, many Occult sects evolved late 17th early 18th Century…..as has been pointed out …usually involving the richer sections of society. However, few were truly ‘Satanic’ , most involved themselves in drunkenness, drug taking and sexual orgies. Practices that were considered anti-Christian. Bearing in mind the power of the Church, its wealth and its involvement in politics…..these people were the ‘back-lash’ to the overwhelming control of the Church. A ‘Rock and Roll’ club for Gentlemen ![]() ![]() Thirdly, I pointed out the symbolism of the crucifix hilt, and you (Spiral) feel the cross guard is a functional necessity. Why? If the dagger is more symbolic and used in a Ritual (i.e. like a Phurba) …the guard is unnecessary. If the dagger is used in sacrifice…..the ‘offering’ would be usually incapacitated (bound or drugged) the wielder of the dagger could ‘pick his spot’ avoiding bone etc . If the throat is cut….the more usual method of sacrifice , the cross guard of a dagger would ‘get in the way’ ….? Surely Satanists would avoid having such a prominent Christian Symbol involved with their Rituals ? I think that your dagger is a lovely piece of work. The casting is clean and crisp, the blade looks great……I still maintain that this is a themed dagger , if endowed with symbolism…I believe that it is a ‘political statement’ about the Church /Society at that time. I am not a Religious person but I do consider myself ‘Spiritual’, I am not in denial about the possibilities of ‘true’ satanistic daggers. This is a case of Yin and Yang………..if there is a good God there must be an equally powerful ‘evil’ god….such is the belief systems of Man kind since humanity ‘found’ religion. |
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#109 | |
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Hi Emanuel, try copying and pasting on this translation site ![]() http://world.altavista.com/tr Regards David |
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#110 | |
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I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one. And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here. |
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#111 |
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What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.
So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it. I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way ![]() Emanuel |
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#112 |
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I think that stylistically and thematically, the dagger and scabbard must be able to function separately. The hilt can tell its own story and in the cases so far, so can the scabbard. There is something happening on the scabbard that tells something. In the case of your dagger Spiral, there is only a perfectly normal church. On its own there is nothing wrong with it. Do any other cult daggers function this way?
The way you hold it is irrelevant, the satanaic symbol must be legible in the context of the other symbols occupying the same space as it. If the crosses on the church were upside down, then again a convincing case could be made. But as it stands, the church has nothing wrong... Emanuel |
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#113 |
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Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!
For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link.... http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html |
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#114 |
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To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further.
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#115 | |
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[QUOTE=katana]
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Subtle enough that the brotherhood of ethnographic arms collectors can not see it. ![]() Wikpedia had all their satanist stuff rewritten as well. There all misunderstood nice boys realy! ![]() & guess what the The original Alexandrian Origen reports can not be found, it is a mere reinterpritation of them recycled. The were lost centurys ago. Spiral |
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#116 |
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It must be a full moon...
Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium. Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know. ![]() |
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#117 | |
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I understood your post. I have to ignore you "evidence" though whether yours or Jims as possibly incorrect. After all niether of you can even remeber where you saw it. So that leaves room for error as perhaps you cant remeber quite exactly correctly what you have seen before. If you ever remeber it please post here or PM me if its in a few years time. I always appreciate evidence. Thankyou. Spiral |
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#118 | |
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Satanic black masses are about inverting the Christian mass, even the words are recounted backwards. this is well recorded. Spiral |
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#119 | |
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Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy ![]() ![]() But then I am intrested in symbolism. As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though. It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach? Spiral |
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#120 | |
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In life I try to communicte & indeed deal with each individul in the manner or type of speach or attitiude shown to me. This can assist some founding freindships & destroy jobs. {"supierors" dont always like it.} Always tricker via internet as we already know. ![]() Easier in a pub with a pint. Take care, Spiral |
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