Two handed swords

[Jean-Marc S.]

Dear Cornelistromp,

I know what is the clue -together with Michael- to identify with 'certainty' 19th century produced katzbalgers : the so-called 'pas d'ane' construction (stairs-like) of the hilt, a technique to work metal that did not exist in the 16th century but which existed in the 19th century and later on. This would be indeed actually a clue to formally identify later katzbalger replicas.
Importantly, you should be aware that the presence of some parallel lines along the groove of hilt does not always imply a 'pas d'ane' construction, and related later technology. I have carefully inspected under optical magnification the metal hilt of my katzbalger, especially focusing inside the grooves on both sides of hilt: the parallel lines that could be observed along the groove are NOT a 'pas d'ane' construction, but clearly hand-made file marks, that are more or less linear and regular, not continuous, more or less deep into the metal, depending on the part of groove you are looking at (orientation of lines sometimes left the groove itself further demonstrating unambigously it could NOT be a 'pas d'ane' construction !). These files marks -clearly identify as such- correspond to a hand-made finish of the hilt's groove with appropriate forgery instruments existing in the renaissance period.

Hope this would help in preventing of some mistakes regarding sword authentification,

jm

NB: To illustrate this, some parallel lines of hand-finish can be also seen in some pics showed in the new thread of Michael (see his period Saxon patrons) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...573#post136573

[Matchlock]

Hi JM,

Unfortunately this criterion alone won't do the trick. There is so much more to the problem: overall length, hilts, blades, marks, 'wolves', etc. And this cannnot be done by words of descriton but by photographic comparison alone.

Why do you not want to see this documentation? After all, it took me quite some time to set it up - and I did it especially for you ...

m

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

I already asked you in a previous post to send it to my email address, as I cannot access your page due to a limited access account.

Thanks,

jm

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Jean-Marc S.

Hi Michael,

I already asked you in a previous post to send it to my email address, as I cannot access your page due to a limited access account.

Thanks,

jm

Sorry for overlooking that but I do not have your email. Perhaps Jasper can help! m

[cornelistromp]

Iam skiing in france so Iam not able to help unfortunately.
Please go to www.hermann-historica.com sale 64 lot 2394 for a similar katzbalger as yours.

[Matchlock]

Brilliant idea, Jasper,

Thank you, and have fun skiing!

m

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

My email is: sabatier.jm1@libertysurf.fr

I have seen the historismus katzbalger you are referring to, for sale at Hermann Historica. Indeed, they look clearly similar at first glance. When looking more closely, they are still different (blade shape, markings and their positioning on blade, hilt and top of pommel).

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi All,

For information, Mr. Ton Bolk (from Bolk Fine Antique Firearms and Armor, the Netherlands) is 100% sure this katzbalger is actually 16th century). He strongly stands on it.

Interestingly, I sent today high resolution pics to Mr. Gilbert Putterie (& Yvon Leyssens) from Magazin Royal (Belgium), who sell Antique Swords, Firearms and Armor from the medieval and renaissance period (with 30 years experience in field; they also represent Czerny's auctioneers). He said the katzbalger is clearly 16th century (metal, patina, construction, etc.)

Hope this helps,

jm

[Matchlock]

Hi Jm,

I'm sad to say it does not help at all.
We are talking about dealers, after all.
Just for fun: try returning your item to Mr. Bolk or selling it to whoever you choose ...

Anyway, I sent you what I collected concerning our topic. More to follow when the respective upcoming sales will be over.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Ok. Thanks Michael.

Would you like to purchase it (if you give me big money, it is yours ) ?

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,

Sorry but I only collect earliest firerams and accouterments.

Does this mean I finally managed to convince you?

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Dear Michael,

Thanks so much for providing me with the pics on historismus katzbalgers that are for sale in an upcoming auction of Hermann Historica (I have had already seen them because they were previously emailed to me by Mr. Ton Bolk to show me how they were different from my katzbalger !). Frankly, I actually find them quite different -at various levels- from my katzbalger, as highlighted to Mr. Ton Bolk, such that the information is not convincing at all. I do think it is a 16th century katzbalger. I thank you because I appreciate your help and efforts on this thread.

My best,

jm

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jean-Marc S.

Hello,

My email is: sabatier.jm1@libertysurf.fr

I have seen the historismus katzbalger you are referring to, for sale at Hermann Historica. Indeed, they look clearly similar at first glance. When looking more closely, they are still different (blade shape, markings and their positioning on blade, hilt and top of pommel).

jm

Hi Jean-Marc,

if you look at the Hermann-Historica katzbalger, the hilt is identical to yours.

The grip is the same (the tang-button is a separate small part and not belonging to any hilt) the s-shaped parrier guard is similar, even the decoration on this guard is the same. a pattern of 2 small incisions and 1 wide notch, only on the outside of the guard!!!which in itself hardly occurs
on katzbalger guards.

It is clear that Both of them have been produced in the same workshop.
The blades are probably authentic 16thc with subsequent/later engravings and subsequent damage. Actually it looks to me that somebody composed the katzbalgers from old and new parts.

If the katzbalger #2394 of Hermann-Historica is indeed historism or even later, then yours is most likely too. regardless of what various dealers on the basis of the photographs claim.
BTW have they recieved the complete information including the link of the Hermann-Historica katzbalger of sale of 64 lot 2394?
This could otherwise be retroactively mailed, I expect them to adjust the valuation on the basis of the above.

However it would probably be better if you can mail the 5mb pictures for valuation to Hermann-Historica direct.This certainly gives more clarity so why not do it ?


another track which can be successful, is to the trace the provenance.
From who's collection did it arise, where and when has this collector bought it.
Katzbalgers without verifiable provenance that have been recently popping up in the market are in advance suspicious.


your twohanders in this thread really are exceptionally beautiful so is the armor, but with this katzbalger I have serious concerns.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks for the details and your opinon Cornelistromp.

[Matchlock]

This item fetched the unbelievably high price of 10,000 euro plus commission at a South German auction.

It is a good copy of a 1530's style (Ottheinrich type) Katzbalger but all stylistic and decorative elements are overexaggerated, which is characteristic of a sumptuous Historismus piece.
The blade is struck with an imitation of a Brescian eye mark which however is located too high up for a genuine piece, just below the quillons. The etching on the blade again is typical of the Historismus period, showing a warrior all'antica.
With an overall length of only 85 cm the sword is also too short; genuine Katzbalgers are usually a bit over 90 cm long provided that they have not been shortened at some later date.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

here I do not agree, this could well be a true katzbalger.
the blade looks at least good and authentic, both the position and the shape of the stamped mark, the length but also the warrior engraving probably of ABONIS and HIPORIS do look ok... 16th century.
I know at least 3 original 16th century swords with similar warrior engraving. swords from the 19th century with this type of engraving are unknown to me, but this does not mean that they don't exist.
For similar example of those warriors see Hermann Historica sale 64 lot 2312.


than the hilt, a similar, well almost indentical checked pattern at the s-guard with latten/brass can be seen on the katzbalger nr 95 published in Europaische Hieb UND Stich Waffen, Mueller, Koelling p.189. The grip is less convincing but this could be a later replacement or restoration.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Sorry for not sharing your opinion.

As I said it is a good and detailed copy but there are decisive details on both the hilt and ricasso that clerarly show the differences.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

of course it is good to disagree sometimes and besides Michael you can always adjust your opinion later
here a magnificent 19th century (16thC style) katzbalger with good ricasso style characteristics. same mark as the 19thC katzbalger that you mailed me

best,

[Matchlock]

I cannot see it.

m

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I cannot see it.

m

?

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

?

Seems I missed the pictures; now they are there.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Seems I missed the pictures; now they are there.

I forgot to place them at the first time, sorry!

[Matchlock]

Another 'Katzbalger' in early-16th c. style, 20th century.

m

[Matchlock]

As announced in post # 54, here is my documentation on characteristic Katzbalger copies; they just ended at auction at Hermann Historica's.
The first item failed to sell.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The third and last piece.

Stylistically, it was the one closest to a genuine early-16th c. Katzbalger.


m

[elfina]

I find this discussion on the authenticity of various katzbalgers totally fascinating and truthfully, quite intimidating due to the fact that I had been wanting to buy one for my own collection. Given the number of fakes, it seems this is one type of sword for beginning collectors to totally avoid! Can anyone tell me where most of the historismus katzbalgers originate, particularly the blades? The patination and wear on most of them look totally convincing!! (I'm assuming they're not naturally aged Victorian era copies) Also, do makers of 16th century fakes concentrate most of their efforts on katzbalgers and two handers?

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Elfina.
I am certain you will soon have a reply to your query.

[Matchlock]

Hi Elfina,

I cannot but totally consent to all your fears.

It takes years of closest possible study on the basis of many objects, genuine and fake alike, in order to tell them apart - and sometimes even the expert opinions vary.

Best,
Michael

[elfina]

Thanks for your reply, Michael!

Actually, my lack of expertise on katzbalgers and other 16th century swords has already cost me a lot of money. About eight years ago I purchased what was purportedly a genuine katzbalger from a dealer (now deceased) who shall go nameless. I found out through Bonhams (I think it was Bonhams and Butterfields then) it was a fake as were the bastard sword, war hammer, and two handed sword I also bought from this dealer (some of the items were not strictly fakes apparently; rather, they were Victorian copies, though the dealer described them as genuine originals). I ended up disposing of all of them through Bonhams in their San Francisco sale of June 29, 2005. If you have a copy of this catalog, the four items I mentioned are on page 79: 2413, 2414, 2415, and 2416.

Eric

[Matchlock]

Hi Eric,

I am sad to hear this, though it was just another version of the same old story.

I am sure you have doing a lot better with the stuff you are collecting now, and I have noticed Jim commenting on your espada ancha!

Best,
Michael