guardless nimcha

[kronckew]

as mentioned in your last pgh. above, the 'lower' classes in many of these areas were the indigenous populations, the upper or ruling classes in the arab world of the time usually meant the turks, (and/or the brits ) who had their own historic arms systems. arms of the lower classes were not necessarily inferior in quality and effectiveness to those of their masters... as many of the latter found out. us colonials can be stroppy.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Kronckew! That adds some most interesting perspective in these descriptions used in these narratives.

Addendum to my notes in my previous post on the article by North (1975).
In my question wondering, if this Venetian sword was from the late 15th century, and the next appearances of these hilts don't turn up until early 17th, where were these in the 16th century?

I think I found the answer. In "Swords and Hilt Weapons" (ed. M. Coe, 1989), Anthony North wrote the chapter "Seventeenth Century Europe" (pp.72-83). On age 77, this exact sword from his 1975 article (a Royal Armouries holding) is captioned 'Venetian hanger, c 1620'.
Perhaps it was an unfortunate misspeak as I know I often do the same thing However, this clears up a very important point toward the ancestry and vintage of this familiar guard system.

In the same chapter, it is noted that loosely similar guards were well known on a number of European hangers in the first half of the century. It is also noted that in addition to the English paintings showing 'nimcha' style hilts of the 'Moroccan' form, another English painting of the period shows Col .Alexander Popham of Littlecote, Wiltshire, wearing a distinctly recognized 'kastane' with the serandipaya and Sinhalese lion clearly seen.

This would place our terminus ante quem right in the mid to latter 16TH
century for the hilt form with these distinctive quillons and knuckleguard.
It does not help us determine whether Ceylon was source for the style, or Italy, but I would personally bet on Italy, as they were the innovators in the developing schools of fence. They also set the pace for weapons style and innovation in Europe in these times.
The kastane was a status oriented dress sword which likely evolved in the period noted as a result of European trade contact.
However it should be noted that Sinhalese craftsmen did often craft carved hilts on many European hangers and swords for colonial clients. It is often suggested that the lion heads of the kastane may have popularized the placing of busts of human heads and the use of animal heads on sword hilts.

[estcrh]

So is the nimca based on a European sword, or are the European swords with a similar hilt copys of nimcha, which came first?

Glaive de l'Ecole de Mars

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by estcrh

So is the nimca based on a European sword, or are the European swords with a similar hilt copys of nimcha, which came first?

Glaive de l'Ecole de Mars

That is an interesting question, and becomes truly a conundrum when the views of arms researchers of the stature of Charles Buttin suggest that the Ceylonese kastane may have been the inspiration for the European swords with such guard systems.
These types of guards as well as the knucklebow were not particularly key in swords of the Indian subcontinent, which was the source as I understand for much of the design of the kastane as far as decorative motif.

Meanwhile, Italy was keenly involved in the developing styles of sword play and the innovative hand protections that came with it, hence the evolution of the complex hilt rapier. These evolutions of guard systems as noted, were taking place as early as the 16th century and in degree even earlier.

The sword play of India and most 'ethnographic' regions including Arabia, Central Asia, etc. was primarily based on defense with a shield and not sword to sword combat.
This is why the so called 'firangi' or Hindu basket hilt evolved from the indigenous khanda, by adding the guard in response to European influence.
The knuckle guard began appearing on various ethnic sword forms with the same kind of European influence through trade and colonialization.

There were in many cases minor influences on European swords in later times as the attraction to 'exotica' lent to using certain styles in certain forms. However this was more of a unique case, such as Japanese styling such as shakudo in 18th century small swords, and the karabela style of the Middle East becoming well known in Poland. It is known that the sabres of the Ottomans became adopted into European style.

Returning to the nimcha, in my opinion, the guard system came from the Italian hilts of 16th century as noted by North (1975), and entered various spheres via the trade of Venice. It has long been suggested that numerous edged weapons of North Africa are directly linked to Italian forms, with various elements in blades and or hilts.

Its transmission to Ceylon was most certainly indirect, probably through Portuguese but with that possibly through Italian influence as well, but in other regions. The swords of Italy were the pace setters for Spain and Portugal in many cases, just as in Europe.

Thank you for asking this, and the great images comparing the Moroccan sa'if and the French academy sword, which was from the 1790s. This was another example of the counter influence of 'foreign' arms to European, which was prevalent after the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt. The famed 'mameluke' hilt sabre became popular for officers throughout Europe and is still used today in the officers swords of the USMC .

[kronckew]

the french ecole de mars sword is on my list of swords to acquire. at it's bottom. one of the ugliest useless cumbersome looking swords i have seen including some modern frangible stainless steel 'fantasy' wall hangers. i include the ecole in the 'fantasy' category, it's only saving grace is that it is not stainless.the steel part of the guard & knuckle guard is it's best feature tho. they should have used that bit and left off the thick rectangular part of the guard. the blade looks too short and the point is way too obtuse. example below.

it is an award to be treasured by those who actually won and were presented with them, a tribute to their performance at the ecole, but the school could have used a better design. it looks like it was designed by a committee. the spanish swords with their proximity to the iberian arab world and morocco may be closer. example also below.

or the itlaian connections mentioned earlier, as in my falchion (sharp repro) way below which is even better.

[Jim McDougall]

These Ecole swords are indeed pretty unattractive and of course intended only for ceremonial or parade use, but their rarity is probably the most compelling factor for collectors. They are intriguing curiosities and seem to have some degree of connection in some fraternal type weapons, which are also gaining in popularity in collecting.

Good points on the Nasrid broadsword shown, and these swords may well have been what prompted Charles Buttin's suggestion for Spanish origin of these quillon arrangements. There was of course as mentioned considerable interaction between Italy and Spain through royal and diplomatic channels through the centuries, so tight similarities are not surprising.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These Ecole swords are indeed pretty unattractive and of course intended only for ceremonial or parade use, but their rarity is probably the most compelling factor for collectors. They are intriguing curiosities and seem to have some degree of connection in some fraternal type weapons, which are also gaining in popularity in collecting.

Good points on the Nasrid broadsword shown, and these swords may well have been what prompted Charles Buttin's suggestion for Spanish origin of these quillon arrangements. There was of course as mentioned considerable interaction between Italy and Spain through royal and diplomatic channels through the centuries, so tight similarities are not surprising.

Salaams Jim, Regarding quillons; The quillon style on North African Nimcha appears as a tear drop type whereas in Zanzibar Nimcha they are often Zoomorphic in design. Could it be that design structure was very much the domain of local fashion/craftsmanship allowing this form to flourish on Indian Ocean basin weapons. This form of quillon appears on Indian/Afghan Tulvar, Castane and Nimcha. The North African version takes its design from Italian and or Spanish design as a tear drop.

Pommels; I suggest that each of the variations in the two otherwise very similar weapons carries localized form including the pommel differences and gilded designs from similar African comb types as well as the zoomorphic shape atop the Zanzibar pommel (a Turtle?) the silver crown shaped ring at above the cross guard, the geometric straight lines in the pommel similar to the Castane, and the lionesque form of pommel with wide open mouth...

Blades...Help!! ...Does anyone have a stock answer to the variation in blades as the one below looks like an Afghan style stamp (1X1)...Naturally being based on a Hub... The Zanzibar Hub ...there was vast potential in blade supply and variation from European to Indian, Sri Lankan to Afghan etc... There is in addition the possibility of artisans from Sri Lanka actually working in Zanzibar putting the sword together in some sort of coordinated workshops? (although we have no knowledge of a Royal Workshop it is highly likely there was one)

Regional Players... All the major players were in the Indian Ocean and the EIC was known to have sword blades circulating from Bombay...The Portuguese who invented the term "Bombay" were prolific in trade dealing all around the region and particularly the Comores, Madagascar et al. French intervention in the late 19thC was also instrumental and must be considered when looking at this weapons development as is the probable input via Cairo and the Red Sea both the latter situations underlining the possible design flow of Algerian style...when many revolutionaries were banished to New Caledonia and the Comores..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All,

Please note that Buttin placed three magnificent charts of swords containing what we term Nimcha and other weapons of various geographical areas; African, Arab and Oriental. I place all three here for reference.

I assume Buttin had all the swords in front of him and photographed. I see that he notes the Zanzibar Ivory hilt with gold decoration as Oriental. What link does he mean with the inclusion of the axes and how does that relate with the Ottoman Yatagan weapons with the eared pommels? ...

He pictures presumably for comparison and suggestion of a linkage with Castane and other derivatives... suggesting a design link which I find fascinating... but no linkage to other Indian weapons such as Tulvar on the Quillon question...but so far as I can see no details on point of manufacture. Neither does he appear to make a hypothesis on the actual link between North African and Zanzibari styles which is the sign of a great researcher leaving perhaps a later student to accomplish that task... Note also the placement of the Omani Dancing swords and Terrs Shield in the Africa section understandably because of the Zanj/Zanzibar involvement of Said the Great...and perhaps since Burton also placed these as Zanzibari in his book; The Book of The Sword.

Your input is requested.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.