Tatar saber for discussion - Page 3

ausjulius · 17th July 2006, 11:28 PM

[QUOTE=ariel]During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
QUOTE]

the laws havent changed , just the enforcemant has relaxed,
actualy there is different classes of knive ,, basicly a knife like a pukko can , and could be purchased by anyone,, as with a cooking knife,
but anything , like a locking pocket knife, of a military knife or a large hunting knife needed a paper form the mvd, or it needed one to own a gun,
swords and other such items were illeagle ,, unless a special permit was granted , ,, and this didnt happen often,, ,,
a "fiver" was a prison knife, , knives not being allowed to imates in the siberian gulags,
found possessing one gave the owner an extra 5 years on his sentence...

ariel · 3rd January 2023, 07:52 AM

For personal reasons I went to this topic and just have to add something.
The Crimean Tatar swords are rare because all weapons in Crimea were confiscated and armorer workshops closed when the Russians annexed Crimea in 1783. That was one of the earliest actions of Prince Grigoryj Potemkin, who reigned over the newly acquired territory.
Polish-Lithuanian Tatars constituted just a minority of the Crimean population that moved up north and settled within the borders of the Great Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Over there they gradually were exposed to the European weapons and their old ones largely were lost to posterity.
I managed to get an old (1925) article about Crimean Tamgas by a great Crimean Tatar writer, translator, polyglot, calligrapher, historian and ethnographer Osman Akchokrakly. He managed to collect ~400 tamgas and freely admitted that at least 400 more must have existed. When a son got married, he left his father’s home and established his own , he then usually took his father’s tamga and modified it a bit, and so on. Thus, there are clan tamgas and many sub-clan tamgas.
Akchokrakly was fired from the university where he taught languages and history in 1934, went into hiding with his sister in Baku, but the NKVD ( earlier name for KGB) found him there, accused him of being a spy and executed him. He was only 47.
Crimean Tatars were rounded up in 1944 and their entire population was exiled by Stalin to Central Asia. Only few managed to survive and go back to Crimea in 1967. In the 1990s about 260,000 came back. But they neither got their lands/homes back, nor compensated for the losses. Another tragic page of Soviet history. Now there are only few Russian historians trying to research Crimean history. God bless them!

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2023, 10:00 PM

This is most informative and intriguing, thank you for reviving this old thread and topic!
Actually the subject of tamgas is pretty esoteric, and I recall many conversations with Iaroslav Lebedynsky back in the 90s when he was writing on tamgas. I have a manuscript of his work, which I am not sure if was published.

It seems tamgas are regarded as a notable source in Polish heraldry, and I'm sure as noted, became a basis for many such symbols and devices as used in many ethnic cases in Caucasian regions as well as in Russia and others.
As these are devised independently it would be hard to determine specifics but that tamgas were a compelling source is certainly likely.

As Gotowski noted in his book on Tatar arms, only one example of a Tatar sword exists he is aware of with a tamga, to which Kirill Rivkin agreed. It was noted in my discussions with Lebedynsky that tamgas were not known on Caucasian swords.

However, I have an example of a shashka which while appearing to be Daghestani, Rivkin noted it is likely by a Daghestani craftsman in Vladikavkaz.
On the scabbard chape is a niello device which is compellingly like a tamga, so much so that Lebedynsky published it as such in an article he published.

ariel · 4th January 2023, 08:44 AM

Jim,
Thank you for the great input.
The issue of tamgas is very incomplete because of its complexity and lack of our knowledge which separate groups owned them.
Mahmud Kashgari in 1073 wrote that Chingiz Khan gave a separate sign ( tamga) to each of the 17 tribes of his empire and that only the Oguz tribe gave birth to 22 clans, in their turn giving birth to sub-clans. Regretfully, there is no information on the structure of the Tatar clan. This is the reason why Akchokrakly who was working only in Crimea found 400 different tamgas and suggested that at least the same number may be found in the future. 800 tamgas among a limited, homogeneous, well-defined population living in a relatively compact geographical space tell us that the number of tamgas went up astronomically since Batu Khan of the Ulus Juchi till the beginning of 20th century!

As to the image on the scabbard chape of the Daghestani shashka, I do not think it is a tamga, because:

First, this looks more like an image of a leafy branch that is found quite often on the shashka scabbard fittings.

Second, Circassia became free of the Crimean vassalage and influence since the end of the 18th century ( Crimea was occupied by Russia in 1783). This shashka can be dated to the Daghestani mass production in a multitude of Caucasian and even Russian workshops i.e. end of the 19th - early 20th century.

Thirdly, Daghestan was never influenced by the Crimean artistic motives.

I am looking for any dissent by the Forumites. Our collective pro/con argumentation might be very helpful.

But I am more intrigued by the niello image on the pommel (?) presumably put on the bare back of it (?). This one does look like a tamga. I checked several sources of tamga images, including of course the Akchokrakly's article , and could not find an analog.
Curiousier and curiousier....:-)

Jim McDougall · 4th January 2023, 06:20 PM

I am unclear on reference to pommel, the image of the tamga is from the rounded scabbard chape (perhaps I am using wrong term in shashka nomenclature).

I am trying to find my notes from Iaroslav back in the 90s when he was writing his various work on tamgas. His primary interest was the Sarmatians and their influences in Ukraine and surrounding regions if I recall.
As I noted, he agreed with the suggestion that this niello symbol on my scabbard chape was indeed a tamga, and published it in one of his articles as such.

I did find my copy of "Tamgas and Runes, Magic Numbers and Magic Symbols"
("Metropolitan Museum Journal 8, 1973, pp.165-173), where it is noted that "..as early as the 1st century AD tamgas appear among the Sarmatian tribes north of the Black Sea ".

Mr. Nickel describes these citing data from Hans Janischen:
"Die Bildzeichen der Koniglichen Hoheit bei den Iranischen Volkkern" (Bonn, 1956). Here some of the examples seem to have a arrowhead element and some a crescent moon and 8 point star, among others, but some of similar gestalt,.

What is compelling in other sources is the comparison of this 'tamga' on my shashka to the so called arsenal mark of St.Irenes in Istanbul, which is described as a 'mondhugelzeichen' (=moon upon a hill) symbol in Janischen (op. cit). This tamga, an arc (crescent moon) looks more like horns, and is above either square or rounded geometric shapes representing a hill.
This is noted as a Sarmatian tamga and having resemblance in degree to some Glagolitic numerals.

The tamga described as St. Irenes (found on arms stored there until 19th c.)
is a 'moon' at the end of a staff (?) with lines on either side (Nickel ,op. cit. fig.13).
According to the Leiden Manuscript Or. 419W (Nickel), this mark is first of 24 tamgas and belongs to Kayi tribe of Turkic tribes of Aral Steppes 9th c.
This became of course known in Istanbul and used accordingly as these became the Turkish nation.
from; "Arsenalzeichen oder Beshau" (Eduard Lenz, "Zeitschrift fur Historische Waffen und Kostumkunde" 6: 1912-14.. p.299-303.

The attached page with image of the St.Irenes mark is not from this source, but uncited source.

I am not suggesting that the tamga on my sword scabbard has anything to do with St.Irenes, but noting that it is similar in configuration to the moon over hill in Janische, as well as the St. Irenes mark, both descrjbed as tamgas.
Which returns to the question, just how unusual is it for a tamga to appear on a sword in these contexts?

ariel · 4th January 2023, 07:29 PM

Now I understand!
I looked at the entire image, couldn’t find anything, and thought that the image on the throat of the scabbard was the point of discussion. My fault, mea culpa!
The first image, what I thought was the pommel, is the chape with the shashka upside down.
Yes, I fully agree, this looks convincingly like a tamga. It does have some resemblance to the Kayi mark, but differs from it. Perhaps the owner was a distant member of some sub-sub clan?

Crimean Khans were highly respected by the Ottomans to the point that apparently there was an unwritten ( or even written?) rule that in case of the extinction of Sultan’s line the Crimean Khan , as a direct descendant of Chingiz Khan, would assume the Ottoman throne.
Well, the last Khan, Shahin Giray, was exiled by the Russians to the Turkish Rhodes in 1783 and strangled there in 1787 with a silk cord because he allegedly planned to replace the existing Sultan.
Still, he was strangled and not beheaded or stabbed, because royal blood should not have been spilled. Some measure of respect, but the “rule” worked against him. That was how Sultan’s relatives were killed upon his ascent on the throne to prevent any possibility of a coup, and that was how the Mongols killed Russian princes captured at the Battle of Kalka: covered them with a heavy wooden platform and assembled on top of it for a celebratory dinner , smashing the prisoners to pancakes. Again, no royal blood was spilled:-)

Jim McDougall · 5th January 2023, 02:50 PM

No problem, I could have been more clear in my wording.

Staying with the discussion of tamgas, as you have brought forward, and the Tatars as also the focus in discussion of these, I would add this resource (previously mentioned):
"Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armor)
Jacek Gotowski, Warsaw, 1997
Item #76
"...only one example of a blade with Tatar ownership is known, this saber with a Tatar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard, and in the Polish Army Museum".

That quote is interesting with regard to my shashka as it suggests the convention was to place the tamga on the scabbard (chape in my case).
However, in revisiting this thread in its 2005 segment, Rsword shows a Tatar sword with apparently the same tamga described in Gutowski but inlaid in the blade.

According to Kirill Rivkin in the discussion, the tamga forms are well known in Tatar contexts including Circassian, and the ancient traditions of the Scythians and Sarmatians. This of course is generally meant and without specifying use on weapons in particular.

As noted, the tamga used by Ottoman military (regarded as to the St. Irene arsenal) is from the Kayi band of the Oguz tribe, and one of the number of examples. Naturally these would vary as required for distinction to the tribe represented.

In rereading through the 2005 discussion it seems there were Turkish tribes present in North Caucusus, and certainly Tatar presence is suggested as well. It would seem there would be abundant possibility to explain the presence of this tamga on the scabbard of a shashka from Vladikavkaz and Daghestani style, despite the rarity of instances of such application.

I brought forward a plate of tamgas from previous discussion for the benefit of current readers as well as picture of the Tatar sword with tamga on blade as referenced in 2005 (comparable to Gutowski example noted).

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2023, 03:25 AM

Found the illustration of the Tatar ordynka with tamga -on SCABBARD mentioned in previous post and on blade of similar sword and same tamga from 2005 discussion.

Also, found detail from correspondence from Lebedynsky (1998) regarding the tamga on my shashka chape. He suggests these kinds of tamga are generally Northwest Caucusus, possibly Abaza (Circassian) but notes the shashka seems of Daghestan origin.
In the original assessment of the sword, 1997 from another source, it is noted the reverse of the locket on the scabbard is inscribed in Arabic 'Sahabi....Afand'. apparently owners name. The Kubachi workmanship is noted and star and crescent in high relief hilt motif, and the unique tamga on chape.
The blade is believed Styrian/Hungarian and earlier 19th c.

Years later in discussion with Kirill Rivkin (2018), he suggested this was likely made in northwest between Vladikavkaz and Nalchik, perhaps either Lak or Dargi Kubachiki craftsman......clearly concurring with the earlier assessment.
He noted tamga were nearly unknown on shashkas, but did seem to occur occasionally on kindjhals, and typically suggested Circassian provenance.

Edster · 7th January 2023, 02:24 AM

Jim,

Your symbols/tribal sword marks are remindful of Sudanese tribal camel brands collected in Darfur to document its history 1200-1700. Most derive from Berber alphabet letters and also indicate other symbolic ownership elements. Sorry they won't copy, but see p.223 and discussion in this 1951 Sudan Notes & Records article
https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/41719553

On Camel Brands, I.G. Hill, SNRV.53, 1972
https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/42678007

Also a 1882 US cattle brand book.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...age/3/mode/1up

Best,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2023, 04:10 AM

Ed, this is an amazing seque which is well observed, and speaks directly to my long fascination with markings, symbols and as you note, including brands. Many years back as I was researching markings found on North African swords, in particular the kaskaras, I had the idea that perhaps some of these might have some connection to ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs.
In looking into that, I read MacMichael (1913) , "The Brands Used by Chief Camel Owning Tribes of Kordofan", as noted in these great links you provided!
Actually, while not a major influence, it seems there were cases where there was indeed some connection to hieroglyphics and some brands.

Tribal symbolism has no boundaries, and is one of the most fascinating aspects of these studies, thank you so much! These articles are outstanding.

3rd January 2023, 07:52 AM	#62
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	For personal reasons I went to this topic and just have to add something. The Crimean Tatar swords are rare because all weapons in Crimea were confiscated and armorer workshops closed when the Russians annexed Crimea in 1783. That was one of the earliest actions of Prince Grigoryj Potemkin, who reigned over the newly acquired territory. Polish-Lithuanian Tatars constituted just a minority of the Crimean population that moved up north and settled within the borders of the Great Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Over there they gradually were exposed to the European weapons and their old ones largely were lost to posterity. I managed to get an old (1925) article about Crimean Tamgas by a great Crimean Tatar writer, translator, polyglot, calligrapher, historian and ethnographer Osman Akchokrakly. He managed to collect ~400 tamgas and freely admitted that at least 400 more must have existed. When a son got married, he left his father’s home and established his own , he then usually took his father’s tamga and modified it a bit, and so on. Thus, there are clan tamgas and many sub-clan tamgas. Akchokrakly was fired from the university where he taught languages and history in 1934, went into hiding with his sister in Baku, but the NKVD ( earlier name for KGB) found him there, accused him of being a spy and executed him. He was only 47. Crimean Tatars were rounded up in 1944 and their entire population was exiled by Stalin to Central Asia. Only few managed to survive and go back to Crimea in 1967. In the 1990s about 260,000 came back. But they neither got their lands/homes back, nor compensated for the losses. Another tragic page of Soviet history. Now there are only few Russian historians trying to research Crimean history. God bless them! Last edited by ariel; 3rd January 2023 at 05:43 PM.

3rd January 2023, 10:00 PM	#63
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This is most informative and intriguing, thank you for reviving this old thread and topic! Actually the subject of tamgas is pretty esoteric, and I recall many conversations with Iaroslav Lebedynsky back in the 90s when he was writing on tamgas. I have a manuscript of his work, which I am not sure if was published. It seems tamgas are regarded as a notable source in Polish heraldry, and I'm sure as noted, became a basis for many such symbols and devices as used in many ethnic cases in Caucasian regions as well as in Russia and others. As these are devised independently it would be hard to determine specifics but that tamgas were a compelling source is certainly likely. As Gotowski noted in his book on Tatar arms, only one example of a Tatar sword exists he is aware of with a tamga, to which Kirill Rivkin agreed. It was noted in my discussions with Lebedynsky that tamgas were not known on Caucasian swords. However, I have an example of a shashka which while appearing to be Daghestani, Rivkin noted it is likely by a Daghestani craftsman in Vladikavkaz. On the scabbard chape is a niello device which is compellingly like a tamga, so much so that Lebedynsky published it as such in an article he published. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th January 2023 at 05:53 AM.

4th January 2023, 08:44 AM	#64
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Thank you for the great input. The issue of tamgas is very incomplete because of its complexity and lack of our knowledge which separate groups owned them. Mahmud Kashgari in 1073 wrote that Chingiz Khan gave a separate sign ( tamga) to each of the 17 tribes of his empire and that only the Oguz tribe gave birth to 22 clans, in their turn giving birth to sub-clans. Regretfully, there is no information on the structure of the Tatar clan. This is the reason why Akchokrakly who was working only in Crimea found 400 different tamgas and suggested that at least the same number may be found in the future. 800 tamgas among a limited, homogeneous, well-defined population living in a relatively compact geographical space tell us that the number of tamgas went up astronomically since Batu Khan of the Ulus Juchi till the beginning of 20th century! As to the image on the scabbard chape of the Daghestani shashka, I do not think it is a tamga, because: First, this looks more like an image of a leafy branch that is found quite often on the shashka scabbard fittings. Second, Circassia became free of the Crimean vassalage and influence since the end of the 18th century ( Crimea was occupied by Russia in 1783). This shashka can be dated to the Daghestani mass production in a multitude of Caucasian and even Russian workshops i.e. end of the 19th - early 20th century. Thirdly, Daghestan was never influenced by the Crimean artistic motives. I am looking for any dissent by the Forumites. Our collective pro/con argumentation might be very helpful. But I am more intrigued by the niello image on the pommel (?) presumably put on the bare back of it (?). This one does look like a tamga. I checked several sources of tamga images, including of course the Akchokrakly's article , and could not find an analog. Curiousier and curiousier....:-) Last edited by ariel; 4th January 2023 at 09:28 AM.

4th January 2023, 06:20 PM	#65
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I am unclear on reference to pommel, the image of the tamga is from the rounded scabbard chape (perhaps I am using wrong term in shashka nomenclature). I am trying to find my notes from Iaroslav back in the 90s when he was writing his various work on tamgas. His primary interest was the Sarmatians and their influences in Ukraine and surrounding regions if I recall. As I noted, he agreed with the suggestion that this niello symbol on my scabbard chape was indeed a tamga, and published it in one of his articles as such. I did find my copy of "Tamgas and Runes, Magic Numbers and Magic Symbols" ("Metropolitan Museum Journal 8, 1973, pp.165-173), where it is noted that "..as early as the 1st century AD tamgas appear among the Sarmatian tribes north of the Black Sea ". Mr. Nickel describes these citing data from Hans Janischen: "Die Bildzeichen der Koniglichen Hoheit bei den Iranischen Volkkern" (Bonn, 1956). Here some of the examples seem to have a arrowhead element and some a crescent moon and 8 point star, among others, but some of similar gestalt,. What is compelling in other sources is the comparison of this 'tamga' on my shashka to the so called arsenal mark of St.Irenes in Istanbul, which is described as a 'mondhugelzeichen' (=moon upon a hill) symbol in Janischen (op. cit). This tamga, an arc (crescent moon) looks more like horns, and is above either square or rounded geometric shapes representing a hill. This is noted as a Sarmatian tamga and having resemblance in degree to some Glagolitic numerals. The tamga described as St. Irenes (found on arms stored there until 19th c.) is a 'moon' at the end of a staff (?) with lines on either side (Nickel ,op. cit. fig.13). According to the Leiden Manuscript Or. 419W (Nickel), this mark is first of 24 tamgas and belongs to Kayi tribe of Turkic tribes of Aral Steppes 9th c. This became of course known in Istanbul and used accordingly as these became the Turkish nation. from; "Arsenalzeichen oder Beshau" (Eduard Lenz, "Zeitschrift fur Historische Waffen und Kostumkunde" 6: 1912-14.. p.299-303. The attached page with image of the St.Irenes mark is not from this source, but uncited source. I am not suggesting that the tamga on my sword scabbard has anything to do with St.Irenes, but noting that it is similar in configuration to the moon over hill in Janische, as well as the St. Irenes mark, both descrjbed as tamgas. Which returns to the question, just how unusual is it for a tamga to appear on a sword in these contexts? Attached Images

4th January 2023, 07:29 PM	#66
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Now I understand! I looked at the entire image, couldn’t find anything, and thought that the image on the throat of the scabbard was the point of discussion. My fault, mea culpa! The first image, what I thought was the pommel, is the chape with the shashka upside down. Yes, I fully agree, this looks convincingly like a tamga. It does have some resemblance to the Kayi mark, but differs from it. Perhaps the owner was a distant member of some sub-sub clan? Crimean Khans were highly respected by the Ottomans to the point that apparently there was an unwritten ( or even written?) rule that in case of the extinction of Sultan’s line the Crimean Khan , as a direct descendant of Chingiz Khan, would assume the Ottoman throne. Well, the last Khan, Shahin Giray, was exiled by the Russians to the Turkish Rhodes in 1783 and strangled there in 1787 with a silk cord because he allegedly planned to replace the existing Sultan. Still, he was strangled and not beheaded or stabbed, because royal blood should not have been spilled. Some measure of respect, but the “rule” worked against him. That was how Sultan’s relatives were killed upon his ascent on the throne to prevent any possibility of a coup, and that was how the Mongols killed Russian princes captured at the Battle of Kalka: covered them with a heavy wooden platform and assembled on top of it for a celebratory dinner , smashing the prisoners to pancakes. Again, no royal blood was spilled:-) Last edited by ariel; 4th January 2023 at 07:41 PM.

17th July 2006, 11:28 PM	#61
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	[QUOTE=ariel]During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years. QUOTE] the laws havent changed , just the enforcemant has relaxed, actualy there is different classes of knive ,, basicly a knife like a pukko can , and could be purchased by anyone,, as with a cooking knife, but anything , like a locking pocket knife, of a military knife or a large hunting knife needed a paper form the mvd, or it needed one to own a gun, swords and other such items were illeagle ,, unless a special permit was granted , ,, and this didnt happen often,, ,, a "fiver" was a prison knife, , knives not being allowed to imates in the siberian gulags, found possessing one gave the owner an extra 5 years on his sentence...

5th January 2023, 02:50 PM	#67
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	No problem, I could have been more clear in my wording. Staying with the discussion of tamgas, as you have brought forward, and the Tatars as also the focus in discussion of these, I would add this resource (previously mentioned): "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armor) Jacek Gotowski, Warsaw, 1997 Item #76 "...only one example of a blade with Tatar ownership is known, this saber with a Tatar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard, and in the Polish Army Museum". That quote is interesting with regard to my shashka as it suggests the convention was to place the tamga on the scabbard (chape in my case). However, in revisiting this thread in its 2005 segment, Rsword shows a Tatar sword with apparently the same tamga described in Gutowski but inlaid in the blade. According to Kirill Rivkin in the discussion, the tamga forms are well known in Tatar contexts including Circassian, and the ancient traditions of the Scythians and Sarmatians. This of course is generally meant and without specifying use on weapons in particular. As noted, the tamga used by Ottoman military (regarded as to the St. Irene arsenal) is from the Kayi band of the Oguz tribe, and one of the number of examples. Naturally these would vary as required for distinction to the tribe represented. In rereading through the 2005 discussion it seems there were Turkish tribes present in North Caucusus, and certainly Tatar presence is suggested as well. It would seem there would be abundant possibility to explain the presence of this tamga on the scabbard of a shashka from Vladikavkaz and Daghestani style, despite the rarity of instances of such application. I brought forward a plate of tamgas from previous discussion for the benefit of current readers as well as picture of the Tatar sword with tamga on blade as referenced in 2005 (comparable to Gutowski example noted). Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th January 2023 at 09:54 PM.

6th January 2023, 03:25 AM	#68
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Addendum on Tatar sword tamgas and shashka w/tamga Found the illustration of the Tatar ordynka with tamga -on SCABBARD mentioned in previous post and on blade of similar sword and same tamga from 2005 discussion. Also, found detail from correspondence from Lebedynsky (1998) regarding the tamga on my shashka chape. He suggests these kinds of tamga are generally Northwest Caucusus, possibly Abaza (Circassian) but notes the shashka seems of Daghestan origin. In the original assessment of the sword, 1997 from another source, it is noted the reverse of the locket on the scabbard is inscribed in Arabic 'Sahabi....Afand'. apparently owners name. The Kubachi workmanship is noted and star and crescent in high relief hilt motif, and the unique tamga on chape. The blade is believed Styrian/Hungarian and earlier 19th c. Years later in discussion with Kirill Rivkin (2018), he suggested this was likely made in northwest between Vladikavkaz and Nalchik, perhaps either Lak or Dargi Kubachiki craftsman......clearly concurring with the earlier assessment. He noted tamga were nearly unknown on shashkas, but did seem to occur occasionally on kindjhals, and typically suggested Circassian provenance. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th January 2023 at 03:37 AM.

7th January 2023, 02:24 AM	#69
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Jim, Your symbols/tribal sword marks are remindful of Sudanese tribal camel brands collected in Darfur to document its history 1200-1700. Most derive from Berber alphabet letters and also indicate other symbolic ownership elements. Sorry they won't copy, but see p.223 and discussion in this 1951 Sudan Notes & Records article https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/41719553 On Camel Brands, I.G. Hill, SNRV.53, 1972 https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/42678007 Also a 1882 US cattle brand book. https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...age/3/mode/1up Best, Ed

7th January 2023, 04:10 AM	#70
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Ed, this is an amazing seque which is well observed, and speaks directly to my long fascination with markings, symbols and as you note, including brands. Many years back as I was researching markings found on North African swords, in particular the kaskaras, I had the idea that perhaps some of these might have some connection to ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs. In looking into that, I read MacMichael (1913) , "The Brands Used by Chief Camel Owning Tribes of Kordofan", as noted in these great links you provided! Actually, while not a major influence, it seems there were cases where there was indeed some connection to hieroglyphics and some brands. Tribal symbolism has no boundaries, and is one of the most fascinating aspects of these studies, thank you so much! These articles are outstanding.