A cup hilt sword for coments.

[dana_w]

That is a good question Fernando. Maybe you could help me with a list that would exclude the possibility of a possible Colonial Cup Hilt being Portuguese.

I noticed that the cup on your has rivets, but not mounting hardware attached.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

That is a good question Fernando. Maybe you could help me with a list that would exclude the possibility of a possible Colonial Cup Hilt being Portuguese.

I noticed that the cup on your has rivets, but not mounting hardware attached.

I don't have the luggage to list details to differentiate cuphilts from being Spanish, Portuguese or Colonial, Dana. I play a bit by ear. One thing i learned is that Portuguese and Spanish are often so alike that the name convenientely given by connoisseurs is Penisular ... which is not surprising, due to, during a large period in which these swords were in fashion, Portugal was under Spanish control; also neighbourhood cultural convergence and all that.
The only solid difference that i have learned is, when present, the weklding of the quillons to the bowl instead of the internal securing arms, normaly fixed by screws. Another alternative,also when present, is the mark of the smith or the language in which the eventual inscriptions in the blade are printed ... but even this is passive of failure, as swords could be made in one country (Spain) with inscriptions in the others language, either by clients demand or just for fashion.
Concerning Colonial variants, i guess they are often more 'folkloric', made and decorated in a non sophisticated or rustic manner. But as i say, i am playing by ear and basicaly depend on the seller's assumptions ... when they appear to make sense to me.
The silver rivets in mine are not for fixing the bowl but only for show off, like the trimmings in the grip.

[dana_w]

I am waiting on “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821” before venturing to deeply into this topic, but here is what we have so far?

(A) More roughly made & less decorative
(B) More rugged arming swords rather than slender rapiers
(C) More likely to have natural grips made of horn or wood (crisscross patterning?, bulging?)
(D) More likely to have a "mushroom-shaped" pommel
(E) Typically the cup is welded to the quillons rather than mounted with internal securing arms, that are normally fixed by screws (This is also typical of Portuguese Cup Hilts)
(F) Typically missing the guardopolvo (dust guard?) where the blade penetrate through the cup

Attached are photos of a "Spanish Colonial" Cup Hilt with a "mushroom-shaped" pommel. Note that the cup is welded to the quillons via arms on the lip of the cup.

These photos are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved.

[M ELEY]

www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17232

Just wanted to post this to show the mushroom-style pommel, welded bars of the guard and horn checkered grips. Examples of the 4-sided checkering of grip material can be seen in Peterson's book as well as in Brinkerhoff's.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17232

Just wanted to post this to show the mushroom-style pommel, welded bars of the guard and horn checkered grips. Examples of the 4-sided checkering of grip material can be seen in Peterson's book as well as in Brinkerhoff's.

Thanks for pointing me at your legacy post. Nice Cup Hilt! And a good example of the grip you were talking about.

[dana_w]

Yea! My copy of “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821” , has arrived.

I would like to publicly thank the person who sent me this wonderful book, my GOOD FRIEND Miqueleter, who I met here on the forum.

Miqueleter also included some other goodies, one of which I have posted here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...44&postcount=1

[M ELEY]

WOW! I want to be friends with Miqueleter!! I love shipwreck pieces, as they define a moment captured in time and usually under terrible (but historic) circumstances. Very nice piece!

BTW, anyone out there happen to have a copy of "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America"? I have a xerox copy of that hard-to-find manual given me by an exceptional gentleman (thanks, Jim McD!!), but would like the book.

[dana_w]

Now that I have had a chance to peruse “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821”, I still have a question or two. On page 72, the authors use the term “Colonial Rapier” to describe a cup hilt much like the one I posted here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=63

I wouldn’t have described this as a rapier. It seem more like a “broadsword”. The blade width at forte: 1 inch || 2.54 cm.

The Oxford Dictionary defines a rapier as “A thin, light, sharp-pointed sword used for thrusting”. The Dictionary goes on to say this about the origin of the word.

Early 16th century: from French rapière, from râpe 'rasp, grater' (because the perforated hilt resembles a rasp or grater).

Just how wide can a cup hilts blade be before it is no longer considered a rapier?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dana,
Again, there are typically no set specifications per se' for classification terminology (they are more 'guidelines' ), and one of the most frustrating issues is that semantics and parlance are often at play with descriptions . The term rapier is of course associated with the thin thrusting swords such as cuphilts and swept hits and thought of in fencing and dueling. The term broadened somewhat at the opening of the 18th century (much as the blades) when these typically civilian hilts became more prevalent in military circumstances. The hilts often remained much the same but the heavier blades were 'arming' swords so vernacular terms became entwined.

The term broadsword for example is typically regarded as meaning double edged, however in the 18th century the term was often universally used for both single and double edged swords. "By the Sword" by Cohen, and "Schools and Masters of Fence",by Egerton Castle, often touch on these curious terminology conundrums .

I prefer to classify using more descriptive terms rather than the general classifications which as can be seen, are not always properly used. For the colonial cuphilts I would use probably 'Spanish colonial cuphilt' and describe the blade. Classifications using strictly categorized terms are often better used with required descriptive qualification to define variation.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I prefer to classify using more descriptive terms rather than the general classifications which as can be seen, are not always properly used. For the colonial cuphilts I would use probably 'Spanish colonial cuphilt' and describe the blade. Classifications using strictly categorized terms are often better used with required descriptive qualification to define variation.

That is helpful Jim. Maybe I am trying too hard to find generally agreed upon classifications for something that has too many exceptions. The problem I run into is a cup hilt like the one shown below.

[fernando]

I would call this one a beautiful bowl cup hilt rapier

[dana_w]

Thanks fernando, I am glad you like it.

I have searched in vain for the term "bowl cup hilt" being used to describe a rapier. Is that a translation of some Portuguese description.

It is true that the cup hilt of this sword is more shallow and also offset to one side. It is obviously designed for a right handed user. The cup seems to be cast with floral decorations in high relief. The pommel is decorated with a with floral pattern too. The quillons are attached to small extensions on the lip of the cup. What do you think, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian? For some reason it looks almost French to me. Maybe from some place near the Pyrenees?

The blade would seem to be one of those German imports that Jim has often mentioned.

Blade length: 36 3/16 inches || 91.916 cm
Blade thickness at forte: 3/8 inch || 0.953 cm
Blade width at forte: 5/8 inch || 1.588 cm
Quillons extension: 2 3/16 inches from cup edge on the knuckle bow side || 5.556 cm
Cup width: 4 7/16 inches where Quillon meet the cup || 11.271 cm
Total length: 42 inches || 106.68 cm
Point of balance: about 4 inches from the bottom of the cup
Weight: 1 lb, 8 1/2 oz || 0.695 kg


Photos are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

... I have searched in vain for the term "bowl cup hilt" being used to describe a rapier. Is that a translation of some Portuguese description ...

Yes, this is the translation for 'copos de tigela' This way you can distinguish the 'basic' bowl (tigela) from other shapes of cups (copos), like the 'margarida' (daisy-flower) or 'conchas' (shells).

,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

... The blade would seem to be one of those German imports that Jim has often mentioned...

Certainly a German blade, possibly from the XVIII century. Can't you figure out the name between Iohannes and Solingen ?

[dana_w]

On one side it reads MORSACH and on the other MORSBACH.

JOHANNES MORSBACH SOLINGEN