The Scythe as a weapon.

[Norman McCormick]

Not relevant.

[Norman McCormick]

Not relevant.

[Norman McCormick]

Not relevant.

[Peter Hudson]

Ah yes .The German Fektbok illuatrations.
These publications were aimed at the aristocratic members of the various fight schools as can be seen by the portrayal of men dressed in the latest fashions of the day. The participants shown are not the peasant members of European society...

I therefor ruled them out of the equation early on since this is not how Scythes were used in war. Imagine an opponent with a spear or sword opposing...

The whole idea behind war scythes was that they were available and cheap to use and training took a few minutes. The War Scythes were designed for the masses. It was a spearing jabbing slashing chopping weapon...

No one in their right mind would go into a battle armed with the scythe shown in this way nor would they be dressed like princes at court...

The blades were taken off and refitted reforged/ and reinforced where required and fitted for their new role as Pole arms. New straight longer wooden poles were required... thus this agricultural tool went to war.

[Peter Hudson]

From Origins of a New Regiment by Allan Mallinson Page 5. I Quote" It was all over in less than 10 minutes; Colonel Gardiner (CO of The 13th Dragoons) was killed trying to rally his and other troops; A highlander cut him down from his horse with a Scythe fastened to a pole and as he fell another highlander delivered a mortal blow to the head with a battle axe".Unquote.

Regards Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

for interest see https://www.geriwalton.com/legendary...y-joseph-bara/

[Jim McDougall]

This is a magnificent painting of a most tragic event, and these polearms of course appear to be actual scythes in the field tool category being used as weapons. The use of field implements as weapons as is, rather than the ploughshares, files etc. repurposed into edged weapons, was actually of course commonplace through time. In this painting, the weapons held resemble more the bardische (in first attachment the Austrian type). These varied widely, but like the scythe, were likely field implements as required. While not typically noted in military accounts, the rather menial task of foraging to feed animals likely had weapons like these used in such context.

In early armies, the masses of forces were typically huge numbers of peasantry who served more as 'cannon fodder' in the huge fields of battle. Naturally, these men used whatever tools or implements they had as arms and armor were expensive and typically owned and used by well heeled individuals and those of standing or station.
Many of these implements became various forms of polearm from the bills, and various types of field implements which became the basis for these types of arms.

What comes to mind is that the familiar 'sickle' marks (dual dentated arcs) which are well known on sword blades, originally associated with Genoa but later widely copied, may well have represented blade makers, who made tools as well as weapons. This may have been the source of the colloquially used term for them.

With the sickle, which apparantly were hafted as well as pole mounted, these were of course effective weapons typically, with use pole mounted more viable for the fighter on foot to reach mounted men attacking.

The well known Lochaber axe of Scotland (last image) is of course pole mounted in the manner of the scythe, and equipped with a hook, to catch and pull the rider down. Another form of such weapon in Scotland was the Jedwart stave, in 16th c. but soon lost favor as it was too light to be effective in this manner.

Returning to the use of the sickle, it seems edged weapons of these forms have ancient representation as well, even the khopesh of Egypt seems a form of sickle type weapon (these well discussed and illustrated by Peter in the text here, just wanted to reiterate here).
In more modern times in Africa, the sickle swords of the Azande in Zaire (along with their throwing knives) as well as the Abyssinian shotel are said to have been used in the same type of 'hooking' manner to pull a shield away from a warrior to open him for spear thrust. (image with blue backing Azande; the other the shotel).

Pragmatically, it is widely held that most sickle type edged weapons were used in this manner in degree, however as deadly cutting weapons the effect would be obvious. With most rank and file often not military, but farmers and field workers, they needed no training in the use of these arms.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is a magnificent painting of a most sordid event...

Ditto !

[Peter Hudson]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is a magnificent painting of a most tragic event, and these polearms of course appear to be actual scythes in the field tool category being used as weapons. The use of field implements as weapons as is, rather than the ploughshares, files etc. repurposed into edged weapons, was actually of course commonplace through time. In this painting, the weapons held resemble more the bardische (in first attachment the Austrian type). These varied widely, but like the scythe, were likely field implements as required. While not typically noted in military accounts, the rather menial task of foraging to feed animals likely had weapons like these used in such context.

In early armies, the masses of forces were typically huge numbers of peasantry who served more as 'cannon fodder' in the huge fields of battle. Naturally, these men used whatever tools or implements they had as arms and armor were expensive and typically owned and used by well heeled individuals and those of standing or station.
Many of these implements became various forms of polearm from the bills, and various types of field implements which became the basis for these types of arms.

What comes to mind is that the familiar 'sickle' marks (dual dentated arcs) which are well known on sword blades, originally associated with Genoa but later widely copied, may well have represented blade makers, who made tools as well as weapons. This may have been the source of the colloquially used term for them.

With the sickle, which apparantly were hafted as well as pole mounted, these were of course effective weapons typically, with use pole mounted more viable for the fighter on foot to reach mounted men attacking.

The well known Lochaber axe of Scotland (last image) is of course pole mounted in the manner of the scythe, and equipped with a hook, to catch and pull the rider down. Another form of such weapon in Scotland was the Jedwart stave, in 16th c. but soon lost favor as it was too light to be effective in this manner.

Returning to the use of the sickle, it seems edged weapons of these forms have ancient representation as well, even the khopesh of Egypt seems a form of sickle type weapon (these well discussed and illustrated by Peter in the text here, just wanted to reiterate here).
In more modern times in Africa, the sickle swords of the Azande in Zaire (along with their throwing knives) as well as the Abyssinian shotel are said to have been used in the same type of 'hooking' manner to pull a shield away from a warrior to open him for spear thrust. (image with blue backing Azande; the other the shotel).

Pragmatically, it is widely held that most sickle type edged weapons were used in this manner in degree, however as deadly cutting weapons the effect would be obvious. With most rank and file often not military, but farmers and field workers, they needed no training in the use of these arms.

Hello Jim and thank you for posting this informative detail. I covered earlier how this strange sounding device appeared to have been wrongly named in history and how it became Scythe rather than perhaps Sithe. (# 44 and #45 of this thread refers.) But leaving the infamous whats in a name connundrum to one side ...I had been chasing something of a rumour about a scythe being used in the Jacobite campaign in 1745 ... Actully I noted that the date of Prestonpans was 1745 on my recent post above but when I went back to my post on the subject I must have missed the opportunity to make the relevant connection thus it still shows my error on the date that I hurriedly must have typed as 1746...Oops!

On the topic of Artwork showing the demise of the Commanding Officer of The English 13th Regiment it has been difficult to view the Artistic impressions available but the Account in the book by Allan Mallinson appears to be precise ...and in that two weapons in particular had been key to bringing down the CO from his horse...The Scythe ...and then his death by a second highlander using an axe probably the famous Jedburgh Axe ... Certainly the picture I have now found below has in it a very clear image of what can only be A Scythe and typically refitted on a long pole was how the commander, Colonel Gardiner of The 13th was knocked off his horse. Interestingly the Artist has placed a highlander right behind the Scytheman carrying one of those axes. The Painting is from https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/y...g&action=click

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[urbanspaceman]

Are AG's arguments relevant to the subject?
Scythes as 'weapons of war' is the subject; and a fascinating one at that.
It appears to me that the soldiers are waiting on the blacksmiths for blades to be attached to their poles... it is an exceptional image in many ways.
It matters-not what is on the anvil, and any spurious speculation to that end is very much beside the point (no pun intended).
Of course the rural Chinese peasants were masters at developing very effective fighting styles using domestic materials and farming implements.
Please excuse my late appearance.

[Peter Hudson]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Are AG's arguments relevant to the subject?
Scythes as 'weapons of war' is the subject; and a fascinating one at that.
It appears to me that the soldiers are waiting on the blacksmiths for blades to be attached to their poles... it is an exceptional image in many ways.
It matters-not what is on the anvil, and any spurious speculation to that end is very much beside the point (no pun intended).
Of course the rural Chinese peasants were masters at developing very effective fighting styles using domestic materials and farming implements.
Please excuse my late appearance.

Hello Keith, Oh I thought so...and it is always a pleasure to attract a response these days... I think it is often dangerous or feels dodgey going out on a limb so far ... and with seemingly absolutely no interaction coming back for what seems like ages... AG Maisey picked up on the interesting word conundrum at his #44 which I might have missed ... .. By the way your detail on SCYTHES Being made at Shotley Bridge was very interesting... I recall a distant memory of looking at the garden spades in my Grandfathers shed which were stamped on the blade with the Shotley Bridge mark...That was when I was about 8... Anyway this thread gives us a chance to tie a lot of stuff in about Scythes being used in Partisan battles ... It also reminds me to try to picture the old Scythe I handled on my Scythe Course near Otterburn a year or two ago which was a Flambouyant bladed item; super sharp but without blademarks ... but what was eye opening was the apparently ancient sharpening tools that all Scythe users are taught... which consists of little wheels and a toffee hammer...and a sharpening stone and which in my view leads us back to the strange sword sharpening system probably used at Shotley Bridge in some form ...I wonder if those little wheels were used on Rapiers or Colchemardes...at Shotley Bridge... The key word is Peening I think.

Regards Peter Hudson

[fernando]

Members are recommended to reduce the size of each quotation to the part of the texts they wish to emphasize !



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[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Hello Keith, Oh I thought so...and it is always a pleasure to attract a response these days... but what was eye opening was the apparently ancient sharpening tools that all Scythe users are taught... which consists of little wheels and a toffee hammer...and a sharpening stone and which in my view leads us back to the strange sword sharpening system probably used at Shotley Bridge in some form ...I wonder if those little wheels were used on Rapiers or Colchemardes...at Shotley Bridge... The key word is Peening I think.

I thought that system worked best on a softer blade and served to work harden a small section of the edge that then was maintained with a stone till the hardened section was used up? It seems that the temper on a small sword would be too hard?

[Interested Party]

"and it is always a pleasure to attract a response these days... "

I ran across some images a while back of forward curving swords in "Diderot's L'Encyclopedie, Art de L'escrime " that I thought i would share. Two have a forward curving blade complete with a cross section (non-scythelike) in the second plate. The third has some sheathed blades with guards that could indicate a forward curve, but more likely an artistic error.

Secondly, I have attached some pictures of a modern North American scythe to help clarify the issue on tangs. I do not know if Europe used this same system. To me the tang looks easily adaptable with only a few heats to a pole arm. The tang could be lengthened with a scarp weld and reinforced with a long sleave to add strength and some defense against being cut. This combination was used in some early middle age spears to my understanding.

[Peter Hudson]

Dear Interested Party,
Thank you for posting the accurate research illustrating sketches of Scythe blades ...and the other curved shaped blades from Fourbisseur references etc. The tangs on the Scythes are accurate and I believe you are correct in writing that the straightening out process would be simple and fast; converting this agricultural tool to a rudimentary but effective pole arm. This is great support and is good to see from Forum.
Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

The Scythe as a weapon clearly illustrated by the Artist.. Józef Chełmoński.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

In the late 1600s it is written that included in the weapons were converted farming tools as weapons which were noted amongst others as SCYTHES.

1548: On this day, an inventory was taken of all the munitions
and ordnance of war held within Newcastle. These give us a
fascinating insight into the machinery of sixteenth-century
warfare, as well as Newcastle's often surprising provisions
for conflict. Most of the foot soldiers were equipped with
black bills (a hooked blade on a 5-6 feet long stick) or bows
-there were 2,ooo of each! Others had pikes (4oo), and demilances (250) with smaller numbers of staves. Also held in the
city were weapons made by converting farming equipment
- hedging bills, scythes, sickles and axes.

[drdavid]

Just a minor late addition. In the interesting book Lotharingia by Simon Winder, he mentions in the chapter titled New Management at Hawk Castle that:

" In 1386 it was the turn Leopold III, Duke of Austria, who brought with him a specialised detachment of scythe troops to destroy the harvests as they headed south from Brugg. The Swiss killed him, together with a rich selection of local noblemen and most of his troops (including presumably the ones awkwardly carring only grass-cutting equipment) at the battle of Sempach."

Unfortunately he does not give a linked reference as to the source of this information.

DrD

[Peter Hudson]

On the web the battle of Sempach brings up this detail along with various artworks. Indeed the people carrying mowers were crop cutters and of no use in the battle. Interesting story Thanks.
Peter Hudson.