Islamic Crossbow?

[Marc]

It's the Nasrid crossbow from the Archaeological Museum of Granada. Allegedly 14th - 15th c. At near 80 cm. long and 124 cm. wide, it's quite impressive, I must say...

[fernando]

If i remember well, B.I. is more interested in a determined model from a determined period, preferrably with pictures.
If the question were how soon in time did Muslims use crossbows, or how soon in time did Musliums make crossbows ( which is a different thing for the matter ), various apparently solid sources could be considered.
You have the Southern Italy Saracens, whom were not fond of the crossbow use, although their artisans used to produce them for Christian Forces:
http://www.deremilitari.org/resource...en_archers.htm
but you also have strong traces of Muslims using Crossbow versions against Christians, namely in the Reconquest period. I will try and attach herev the scanning of part of a letter, written in Latin, by an eye witness of the Conquest of Lisbon in 1147, where the Moors were already equiped with crossbows.
I keep searching the track of the so called moorish "Cuçalarab", a light crossbow from the Reconquest period, so eficient that the Christians have copied it for their own use.
Kind regards

[fernando]

Uploaders still not cooperating ... please see next posting

[fernando]

[B.I]

hi,
the nasrid crossbow is the only known example, and as marc says, it is only assumed as such, hence this post. the one in a private collection that is being researched owes its form and islamic heritage to the comparison of the nasrid piece. it is a great thing, but this question has never been directly followed through.
fernando, the last two pieces of informatipon are both great, and although neither proves that the crossbow was made and used by islamic warrior, without being directly influenced by the european version, it definately can class as ammunition that it was in use by the muslim armies.
both a great find.
i shall meet up with the researcher, and try and get the information he already has, to add to this posting, and will given in these last few pieces.
again, great work.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi,

Have a look at the illustration in Islamic Arms and Armour, edited by Robert Elgood. I know you have it, as you have shown the silver bottle on page 168. Have a look on page 31, the right side of the picture, I think I see one, maybe two crossbows – or should I put my 'glass eyes' on?

Eight to ninth century, would that be early enough?

[fernando]

Hi B.I. and all involved.
At this point we may assume the principle of the egg and the hen ... who knows which came first.
In an ultimate perrogative, we may consider that, even if we demonstrate that a determined islamic army appeared in such battle, siege, or campaign with crossbow equipment, it doesn't mean that they have produced them themselves. Or if they had, it doesn't mean they produced them with their own pattern. Or if they had, it doesn't mean their pattern was not inspired by previous christian models.
Besides the fact that not all islamized peoples were of the same origin, or leaved in same the region in the same period, nor they had the same weaponry options.
Also an old empirical saying pretends that you can never be sure that something is invented, but either reinvented, only not "publicised" or brought to practice before. Da Vincy invented the pointed bullit and the helycopter a few centuries before it was (re) invented and brought to practice. Luckily in this case we have its drawings.
In the available hipothesis, the crossbow was brought to practice by the chinese ( we ignore if the crossbow principle was discovered before ).
Then after that, whom copied whom, its something rather complex, indeed. There are muslims of many races, and christians all the same. There were bans on the crossbows made by Mohamad to muslims, but also by the Pope, made to christians. In both cases, a part of them ( not necessarily all ) ignored the ban.
It is a fact that muslims in all had a significantly lower atraction for the use ( not manufacturing ) of this weapon.
But let it be no doubt they either produced it, used it in action, and also developed their own models.Actually their intelectuals have written treatises on the subject, already in XII century.
The Arab Murdâ ben Ali (1137-1193) treatise, has largely described sofisticated crossbow variations.
Murthi ibn Ali Al Tarsusi wrote a treatise for Saladin, called "Tabsiratu Arbab Al-Albab", including descriptions and sketches of crossbow developments.
Naturally theses works were published in modern languages, surely in english. But i can trace a description of the Tarsusi drawings in a known Forum ... however the pictures are deleted, the thread is from last year:
'A crossbow used for launching naptha jars/pots'
'A circular ballista which can hold up to 4 bolts. When one is shot, the dial on the top of the wooden base turns to fire the other'
'A cavalry lance with a crossbow attached to it'
'another lance with a crossbow'
'Diagram of a buckler with a crossbow attached on the inner side of it. The bolt can be discharged with a simple lever, that will launch the bolt through a small hole in the steel sheild'
It is therefore acceptable that christians learned the crossbow use at fighting

[fernando]

the cruzades against muslems, and so brought it down south, like to the iberian peninsula, in the reconquest campaings. But they had to face the same weapon from the moors side. Potentially, in this context, the christians were the weapon replicators, and not the moors.

The "fantasia" performed by inland mahgrebian mounted moors for the tourists, using close to phony miquelet muskets, are a consequence of their ancient feasts, as they still reproduce, with the musket, the same gestuals originally performed by cavalry crossbowmen, in the XIV century.

http://equestre.leguide.ma/disciplines.cfm?id=18

There is several literature describing the corsair moors, from the mahgreb, crossbow professionals from Larache and Tetuan, that vastly atacked iberian ships on the north african coast. Famous enough to incorporate the Janisary armies:

http://www.bleublancturc.com/Turqueries/janissaires.htm

and still eficient to be required by the Egyptian Sultan, to join his army comanded by a Turk mameluck, in the great battle of Chaul, against the portuguese, in 1508.

[fernando]

In an islamic sciences exhibition propsed by UNESCO, they promote the interactive assembly of a crossbow, with the following quotation:

The crossbow
This important instrument of war was greatly developed and described in Arabic military treatises. Replicas of this war device can be made and the enclosed sheets describe the construction of a replica by one hobbyist. : http://www.unesco.org/pao/exhib/islam1.htm

In the XIV siege of Tremecén ( algeria ) the Marini Sultan received reinforcements of archers and crossbowmen from Granada, "used to siege works".
http://www.islamyal-andalus.org/cont...cia.php?id=633

Other tracks could be quoted,but i bother you no longer
kind regards
btw, with this crossbowmania, i ended up buying two beautyfull portuguese quarrels ( square sectioned bolts ), one from the XIV century and one from the XV, this one with a thicker neck, already for the steel arch model.

[fernando]

i just couldn't manage ( again ) to upload the aquarels of magrebi crossbowmen and the picture of a beautyfull cavalry crossbow, from the guard of portuguese King Dom Sebastião, beg. XVI century.

[fernando]

Here are Al Tarsusi drawings