semi-dual edged badik? - Page 3

kai · 28th February 2013, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Here the pictures of the Bugis hilt as well a free cross-section through a walrus tooth.

Thanks, Detlef - a really nice example!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 28th February 2013, 10:33 PM

Quote:

And here the picture from the dugong ivory hilt. Carved from a tusk those who can reach a length from 20 until 25 cm. The ivory look similar like elephant ivory but have a concentric structure and by this you can recognize dugong ivory.

Thanks a lot, Detlef!

I'm not completely convinced of the identification though: a concentric structure per se doesn't seem to be enough to narrow down on dugong IMVHO; these can be found in ivory of different origin (including spermwhale and relatives). However, the somewhat angular core as well as the longish inner line may be a better character allowing a positive identification.

Thor, have you some pics of cross-sections from dugong tusks?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 28th February 2013, 10:39 PM

Quote:

You're most welcome when you are around here! Surely we can discuss more about these hilts and many other things...

Thanks, Moshah! I do indeed hope that we'll be able to meet and mull over our collections sometime in the future...

Regards,
Kai

T. Koch · 1st March 2013, 04:45 AM

Hi kai,

No, unfortunately I haven't been able to photograph any cuts from dugong ivory. I have however, recently for the first time seen dugong teeth in person and to my great surprise they are solid with almost no central cavity - not hollow as I thought a lot of available photos seem to show.

This has somewhat altered my opinion of what can - and can't be - cut from dugong teeth. I have taken photos of the teeth in situ and will upload them when I have a chance to dig them out of my archive at work.

Regarding the ID based on laminations alone, I agree a 110% with you kai, that it's not a sufficient character alone.

Detlef, until I have actually seen dugong ivory in some cut sections, my best guess would be that the hilt you show is carved from hippo incisor. It fits the concentric layers with the central dot as well as the general outline - see standard reference picture attached. If they exported the tusk to SEA , then surely it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume, that the incisors went the same route?

- beautiful hilt btw!

All the best, - Thor

T. Koch · 1st March 2013, 04:46 AM

...the walrus one kicks major butt too - the color is stellar! Would you say that this one was tea-stained?

Moshah · 1st March 2013, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

...the walrus one kicks major butt too - the color is stellar!

I am totally agree with you. It is a nice piece!

Anyway, what's with the green smudge on the base, Detlef?

kai · 1st March 2013, 10:47 PM

Hello Moshah,

Quote:

Anyway, what's with the green smudge on the base, Detlef?

Copper ions leaching from a brass/bronze selut do stain ivory green.

Regards,
Kai

DAHenkel · 2nd March 2013, 08:24 AM

Just to follow up...regarding the raw gigi I saw in the field its clear thanks to Thor's photo that the material in question was sperm whale tooth as his photos precisely resembled those. So perhaps that's where gigi comes from

Sajen · 3rd March 2013, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Moshah,

Copper ions leaching from a brass/bronze selut do stain ivory green.

Regards,
Kai

Exactly explained!

Sajen · 3rd March 2013, 11:05 PM

Both hilts are not from my own collection but from a friends collection. They are from the collection from Wolfgang Schilling who has shown both hilts in the publication "Faszination Kris, Zauber des Materials" as examples of the declared material and he is sure that is exactly this material.
Will ask him again about the Jawa Deman hilt.

Regards,

Detlef

1st March 2013, 04:45 AM	#64
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi kai, No, unfortunately I haven't been able to photograph any cuts from dugong ivory. I have however, recently for the first time seen dugong teeth in person and to my great surprise they are solid with almost no central cavity - not hollow as I thought a lot of available photos seem to show. This has somewhat altered my opinion of what can - and can't be - cut from dugong teeth. I have taken photos of the teeth in situ and will upload them when I have a chance to dig them out of my archive at work. Regarding the ID based on laminations alone, I agree a 110% with you kai, that it's not a sufficient character alone. Detlef, until I have actually seen dugong ivory in some cut sections, my best guess would be that the hilt you show is carved from hippo incisor. It fits the concentric layers with the central dot as well as the general outline - see standard reference picture attached. If they exported the tusk to SEA , then surely it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume, that the incisors went the same route? - beautiful hilt btw! All the best, - Thor Attached Images

1st March 2013, 04:46 AM	#65
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	...the walrus one kicks major butt too - the color is stellar! Would you say that this one was tea-stained?

2nd March 2013, 08:24 AM	#68
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Just to follow up...regarding the raw gigi I saw in the field its clear thanks to Thor's photo that the material in question was sperm whale tooth as his photos precisely resembled those. So perhaps that's where gigi comes from

3rd March 2013, 11:05 PM	#70
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Both hilts are not from my own collection but from a friends collection. They are from the collection from Wolfgang Schilling who has shown both hilts in the publication "Faszination Kris, Zauber des Materials" as examples of the declared material and he is sure that is exactly this material. Will ask him again about the Jawa Deman hilt. Regards, Detlef