Jineta/nimcha/kattara

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Ahhhh! The typical colonial discourse…the civilizing role of Europe into the rest of the (colonized) worl...And today, even the colonial notions about an Indo-Aryan “conquest” are deeply questioned, the idea of the “heroic white people” taking control of Europe in a great epic saga, ahhhh, a beautiful story...

Sostenga sus caballos, Gonzalo
The issue here is not such passionate angle of political influences, even if ancestral ones but, instead, questioning the plausibility of authors (and collectors and others) statements on determined swords provenances and their influence in shape throughout ages and peoples.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... We have seen that the quillons turned toward the blade is a centuries old use among the Oriental peoples, and that the strongly downcurved quillons were used first (before the Portuguese or the Spanish peoples) by the Berbers, at least from the 13th Century, if not before...

So true ... this not meaning that another people other than the one who first put up an implement, may adopt it, strictly or modified, and take it somewhere else, causing a new wave of influence. There even are records of such happenings, namely the case of ship cannon port holes, breech loading 'berços' cast system and other stuff ... what do i know?.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

And why the falcata is a Lusitania sword?...

And why need to ask ? We all know that such attribution is not correct; only in strict terms, that not in the ample reach of geographich context.
I just wonder how the author of such statement isn't also aware of that. But if he was, we wouldn't be here analizing such implausibilty ... although not one of the more screaming.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... As far I know, it is a Celtic-Iberian weapon ...

Although not at all a scholar, i have had my dosis of search on the so called Falcata Iberica, called Machaera Hispania by the Romans (as cited by Homero), and potentially descendent of the Helenic Kopis.
By the away, you are surely aware that the name Falcata was ony attributed in the XIX century. What it is not known, according to experts, is how Lusitanians called this sword... but this doesn't mean that they didn't used it. On the contrary, if Celtiberians made them (or copied them), we may realize that they passed on to their following breeds. It is not because early examples were recently found that original models didn't have their inheritance and evolution throughout time.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... and the notion of “Portugal” or “Spain” did not exist in that time...

But 'soon' came the concept of Roman "Hispania", as they called the whole Peninsula; Portugal came much later indeed.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Numerous findings of falcatas with horse-head hilts were also made in the actual territory of Spain...

Horse head, bird head, undetermined grip, 'rectangular' grip without head ... Not only in Spain but in the whole Peninsula; there are currently dozens of sites with an excavated panoplia of these weapons and their paralel tipologies; i have seen (and saved) papers with enlightening charts.
... And i happen to have been offered a catalogue of a collection auctioned in 2003 with an outstanding set of these swords in exceptional conditions.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...In the 16th Century those swords were buried for more than 1,300 years, and the Portuguese even didn´t know them, maybe until the 19th or 20th Century, when archaeological discoveries bring them to the modern knowledge.

The mentioned term was Lusitanian, not Portuguese... which makes a difference .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...This quote seems Portuguese-biased, who is the author? I have seem similar statements in Portuguese web sites. Very nationalistic...

There you go again. The author is not even Portuguese ...although he belongs in a family that has been in Portugal for almost three centuries. He certainly exacerbates on the Portuguese theme; but let it be his problem; we don't have to buy it, though.
Nevertheless this Gentleman holds in fact one of the largest collections of early weapons and tons of documentation mainly directed to the Indian route and discoveries period.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... And why the knuckleguard would be influence of the Portuguese? Contrary to the Spanish, they didn’t have presence in North Africa. In the 16th Century the Portuguese invasions to Morocco were defeated repeatedly by the Saadis, which also defeated the Ottoman intents.

A fair point of view but, still only in the coast, as anyway Portuguese never had enough military contingents to impose presence in the interior, either in Africa or elsewhere, they built and inhabited fortifications in over half dozen spots in the Moroccan coast during some three centuries, which in any case is also a presence; enough for both cultures ending up 'contaminating' eachother ... at least potentially; one has to go out to the village for groceries and bring with him some local gadgets ... or eventually engage in battle and capture or let capture one or two weapons. Isn't that also how these things happen ? .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... At the end of the 16th Century, Portugal became a Spanish dominion.

... Which ended mid XVII century. But that was more of a monarchic issue; i don't think the Spaniards came over en masse. Notwithstanding cultural exhange already existed ... except for navigation and discoveries classified information, as often mentioned in chronicles .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...I lack of bibliography on Portuguese swords. I would like to see those with knuckleguards from the first half of the 16th Century, could you provide some examples?

Apart from the book i have been quoting, HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, which is not only about such swords, and with all possible tagging implausibilities, i only know of another one called AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre, where also attributions may be discussable, on what touches the origin of swords being either Portuguese or Spanish; a common imprecision due to both countries interculture, namely or specially on what touches these weapons. That's why some authors prefer to attribute these swords the title of Iberian.
If you browse the search button of the forum under AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES it could be that you find a few pictures i posted of Eduardo Nobre's collection with contextual detail references.
... Plus the details i have already passed you on my half dozen examples. Did i also pass you their pictures ?


.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...similar to the stone carved example below, lying on the ground, bearing in mind that differences in the guard may be the result of it having been made by a Portuguese stone mason.... so it may be slightly wrong...however, it seems the blade is a battle field one; and the rest of the carving is accurate.... It has a straight guard. No quilons....

It all appoints to my eyes that, Captain (Pinhão?) is holding a military Portuguese sword. Some 'hollow' in the upper section of the guard in the faded carving (or picture), impedes to even guess it is a military cup hilted one.


-

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

The issue here is not such passionate angle of political influences, even if ancestral ones but, instead, questioning the plausibility of authors (and collectors and others) statements on determined swords provenances and their influence in shape throughout ages and peoples.

Only wanted to expose the motive behind the attributions, as not beign technical or objetive.

Originally Posted by fernando

So true ... this not meaning that another people other than the one who first put up an implement, may adopt it, strictly or modified, and take it somewhere else, causing a new wave of influence. There even are records of such happenings, namely the case of ship cannon port holes, breech loading 'berços' cast system and other stuff ... what do i know?.

That is correct. It is what I have been saying about this evolution.

Originally Posted by fernando

Although not at all a scholar, i have had my dosis of search on the so called Falcata Iberica, called Machaera Hispania by the Romans (as cited by Homero), and potentially descendent of the Helenic Kopis.
By the away, you are surely aware that the name Falcata was ony attributed in the XIX century. What it is not known, according to experts, is how Lusitanians called this sword... but this doesn't mean that they didn't used it. On the contrary, if Celtiberians made them (or copied them), we may realize that they passed on to their following breeds. It is not because early examples were recently found that original models didn't have their inheritance and evolution throughout time.

Agree. M. Fulgosio invented the name in 1872. Of course, also Lusitanians used the falcata. Though I am more adept to the explanation about their origin given by Fernando Quesada Sanz in his book on the subject. I personally don't believe in the Greek origin.

Originally Posted by fernando

But 'soon' came the concept of Roman "Hispania", as they called the whole Peninsula; Portugal came much later indeed.

What I meant is that the modern notions of nation-state or country are a recent invention, and we can not circumscribe many phenomena exclusively to a single specific country because they ocurred on an area actually occupied for more than one country. I know that in many ways the Portuguese and the Spanish are literally brothers sharing a common culture.

Originally Posted by fernando

Horse head, bird head, undetermined grip, 'rectangular' grip without head ... Not only in Spain but in the whole Peninsula; there are currently dozens of sites with an excavated panoplia of these weapons and their paralel tipologies; i have seen (and saved) papers with enlightening charts.
... And i happen to have been offered a catalogue of a collection auctioned in 2003 with an outstanding set of these swords in exceptional conditions.

I am happy for you!!! I never thought that you were ignorant on this matter, neither tried to imply it. If I gave you this impression, please accept my apologies.
I only have the book from Quesada and some articles. You should share!!

Originally Posted by fernando

The mentioned term was Lusitanian, not Portuguese... which makes a difference .

What I meant is not that the Lusitanians didn't use or had knowledge of the falcatas, but that the Portuguese in the 16th Century didn't even know the falcatas, since they were buried for more than 1,300 years. So, how it was possible that the hilt features of the falcatas were passed by the Portuguese to North Africa in the 16th Century or the 17th-18th Century!!!

Originally Posted by fernando

There you go again. The author is not even Portuguese ...although he belongs in a family that has been in Portugal for almost three centuries. He certainly exacerbates on the Portuguese theme; but let it be his problem; we don't have to buy it, though.
Nevertheless this Gentleman holds in fact one of the largest collections of early weapons and tons of documentation mainly directed to the Indian route and discoveries period.

The bias is obvious. For the sake of objetive knowledge, any bias should be placed in evidence. It is part of a search for a truer knowledge. I am aware of the contributions of people who has preserved weapons and documents, but their explanations should be reexamined under the light of new discoveries, studies and a more scientific approach. As our own explanations. I constantly modify my own points of view, as I learn more. And I have so much to learn!!!

Originally Posted by fernando

A fair point of view but, still only in the coast, as anyway Portuguese never had enough military contingents to impose presence in the interior, either in Africa or elsewhere, they built and inhabited fortifications in over half dozen spots in the Moroccan coast during some three centuries, which in any case is also a presence; enough for both cultures ending up 'contaminating' eachother ... at least potentially; one has to go out to the village for groceries and bring with him some local gadgets ... or eventually engage in battle and capture or let capture one or two weapons. Isn't that also how these things happen?

It could be. Possibly, but not probably, since other factors and the cultural background in Africa makes more probably the other explanation.

Originally Posted by fernando

... Which ended mid XVII century. But that was more of a monarchic issue; i don't think the Spaniards came over en masse. Notwithstanding cultural exhange already existed ... except for navigation and discoveries classified information, as often mentioned in chronicles.

Agreed. But the Spanish had a greater presence in that area, thus making more probable the influences passing through them. Instead, the Portuguese had greater presence in more suthern parts of West Africa, the Indian Ocean, India and Indonesia. They were by far greater navigators than the Spaniards.

Originally Posted by fernando

Apart from the book i have been quoting, HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, which is not only about such swords, and with all possible tagging implausibilities, i only know of another one called AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre, where also attributions may be discussable, on what touches the origin of swords being either Portuguese or Spanish; a common imprecision due to both countries interculture, namely or specially on what touches these weapons. That's why some authors prefer to attribute these swords the title of Iberian.
If you browse the search button of the forum under AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES it could be that you find a few pictures i posted of Eduardo Nobre's collection with contextual detail references.
... Plus the details i have already passed you on my half dozen examples. Did i also pass you their pictures ?

Thank you for the references. I have Hombres, Espadas y Tomates (only text, no images), but not the other book. As you know, I was absent from the forum and many interesting threads are unknown to me. I will search inmediately. But of what pictures are you talking about? Do you mean the photos from the book above and from Antonio's Page?

Un abrazo

[Gonzalo G]

Details from photos of paintings of Nuno Gonçalves (court Portuguese painter, 15th Century). The swords seem more akin to the Spanish ones. I wonder if the black sword, more differentiated, was exclusive of the colonial enterprise. Or if the differences were because one was a dressing sword and the other a fighting sword, or just because one evolved in time into the other. The details come from the portrait of Saint Paul and the Saint Vincent Panels:

[Gonzalo G]

Another detail:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

It all appoints to my eyes that, Captain (Pinhão?) is holding a military Portuguese sword. Some 'hollow' in the upper section of the guard in the faded carving (or picture), impeaches to even guess it is a military cup hilted one.

Yes indeed however the sword I bring notice to is lying on the ground straddled by the Portuguese Officer but I welcome your remark upon the Portuguese weapon. Regarding the other sword ...on the ground... which is I suggest the battle version of the KASTANE though without quilons and with a straight guard and no knuckleguard ; a few points.

My question to you is why would a battlefield weapon, then, have the style of quilon seen in later Kastane? ...Swords which were clearly weak bladed and which had no fighting practicality but were in fact badge of office tokens... or Icons awash with Buddhist designs..

Surely a religious Icon like the hilt, the peacock tail rain-guard, the other zoomorphic creatures and the very important religious architecture of the misnomered "quilons" or thunderbolts..."the Vajra" ...be placed on a battlesword when they were so revered in Buddhism from the very beginning... The Great Buddha himself carried the Vajra to Tibet; It would not be placed on a blade...on a battlesword... Thus I point to the Kastane Quilons in the bling badge of office version as misplaced and misnamed by European experts ...but very real as religious architecture.

To be precise I would have to show an earlier Tibettan sword with Vajra Quilon architecture illustrating my point.

For that I refer to the Boston Museum of Fine Art for the 14th Century Khadya Tibetto-Chinese sword with Vajra styled Quilons acting as they are designed ... as thunderbolts ...and in the pure sense as religious Icons.

Please see http://sword-site.com/thread/1018/tibetan-sword-khadya

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...680#post218680 where I have updated details in that thread and for comments.

and below with a reminder of the Vajra cutting device added;

[Gonzalo G]

But now, this more military-style men carry the more classic black swords (same panel):

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

Well, for one thing, I do not believe the pictured sword is Moroccan. I believe it is actually from East Africa, possibly Zanzibar. There was of course, significant Portuguese presence there, even more so than Morocco.

Since the description starts with an error in the attribution, it is kind of hard to accept the conclusions of the author without questioning them. That being said, the European influence is undeniable - the ring guard for example.

As for the dragon quillons on Ceylonese swords, one has to be careful prior to jumping to conclusions. I am attaching a picture of a Timurid (pre 1500) Central Asian nephrite sword guard from the Met collections. The kastane guard therefore could be Asian, and not European inspired.

Salaams TVV SEE #53. Indeed it is not Moroccan, but Zanzibari yes. As noted in #53.
Regarding hilts please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...680#post218680

and the post I have just completed at # 67 above.

In reference to the hilt, guard, quilons and rainguard ... In fact the entire hilt and all of the Deities ...This is a purely Buddhist inspired item. but you could argue some likeness in the shape of the knuckle guard although others could counter it was simply parallel development ...I could live with similarities in the guard and of course the blades may be European but the rest of the sword is Sri Lankan with heavy notes of Buddhism in the hilt.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hoping that Ariel doesn't get upset for this diverting on his "Jineta/nimcha/kattara" topic ... .

This one, from the same collection, reads:

"Sword of a Benin sovereign, in the Costa da Mina, XVI-XVII centuries. The iron blade, with the brass inserted christian cross, has a classic shape, already seen in Pharaonic tumbs. The guard is of Portuguese influence, with two protection rings for the index finger, forming a protection bridge decorated with the face of a Portuguese. The grip shows infuence of Cingalese armoury, certainly brought by the Portuguese fleets ".
.

The sword basic form is Benin African tribal see below and at http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...c;f=8;t=008949 probably with a Storta hilt... I can see how this may have been rehilted by the Portuguese dominant in the region but I think it premature to link the hilt with the Sri Lankan examples on Kastanes... On your reference this is a European Lion.

Benin Sword below.

[Gonzalo G]

I think we are disgressing too much from the subject, which is the possible relation among the jineta-nimcha-kattara, which bring us to the evolution of their hilts. The Portuguese and Spanish swords from the 15th Century and their parallelism, of course, are a related matter to the jineta.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I think we are disgressing too much from the subject, which is the possible relation among the jineta-nimcha-kattara, which bring us to the evolution of their hilts. The Portuguese and Spanish swords from the 15th Century and their parallelism, of course, are a related matter to the jineta.

This is a Forum. Consider the size of the problem with this swords movement and morphology across the globe at a time of great upheaval and exploration... It must have affected 100 countries and continued to do so for generations. I focus on some unanswered sectors like Kastane and the idiosyncrasies of Nimcha. They and many other swords are possibly related. Others in the discussion have no problem dealing with this... it is often what transpires ... a multi faceted approach. Personally I feel the position is good as the answers largely monitored by a senior staff member of considerable experience in this field is going well and he has no problem dealing with two directions simultaneously.

The complexity is fascinating in this regard but the thread title may throw some... There is no need to consider Kattarra as it is not in the mix... however, that is only a suggestion lest you think I am leading the thread ! It will go where it goes... and I see no reason to change my own track... but you can do what you like...I learn a lot from the added focus upon Spanish and Portuguese links and it can be seen I have placed serious input from the Italian direction and naturally the Indian Ocean which is only half an hour away!

I believe more in free association of ideas rather than getting hung up on strict references because more astute contributors than you or I will drive a bus through that lot as you may have already discovered.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Agree. M. Fulgosio invented the name in 1872. Of course, also Lusitanians used the falcata. Though I am more adept to the explanation about their origin given by Fernando Quesada Sanz in his book on the subject. I personally don't believe in the Greek origin...

This article i have by Leandro Saudan Tristão is largely supported by Quesada Sainz works. I have not read of any evidence other than that of his Greek origin theory. He is so keen in illustrating Greeks handling Kopides and mentioning their introduction in the Iberian Peninsula (V AC), brought by mercenaries who have participated in the Sicilian wars. But of course i don't make a case, my knowledge is residual.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... I never thought that you were ignorant on this matter, neither tried to imply it. If I gave you this impression, please accept my apologies.

No, you didn't imply a thing; in any case i am infinitely far from having your luggage.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... I only have the book from Quesada and some articles. You should share!!...

Try https://run.unl.pt/bitstream/10362/7...insular%20.pdf.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... So, how it was possible that the hilt features of the falcatas were passed by the Portuguese to North Africa in the 16th Century or the 17th-18th ...

Oh ...did i say that ?

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...Instead, the Portuguese had greater presence in more suthern parts of West Africa, the Indian Ocean, India and Indonesia. They were by far greater navigators than the Spaniards...

If i agree with that, i will be accused of nationalism .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I have Hombres, Espadas y Tomates (only text, no images) ...

So you don't have the book; apart from all fantasy contained in the tales and doubts on weapon's attributions, it is an excelent work.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... But of what pictures are you talking about?...

Pictures i post now and then in context with topics. Just patiently browse on the book i mentioned or on his author's name, Antonio Nobre; this is one of such threads:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=eduardo+nobre.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Do you mean the photos from the book above and from Antonio's Page?...

I don't recall which swords Antonio had in his page; maybe some are similar (not the same) but, as far as remember, there was no detail on the pictures.


.HEREHERE HEREHERE

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Details from photos of paintings of Nuno Gonçalves (court Portuguese painter, 15th Century). The swords seem more akin to the Spanish ones. I wonder if the black sword, more differentiated, was exclusive of the colonial enterprise. Or if the differences were because one was a dressing sword and the other a fighting sword, or just because one evolved in time into the other. The details come from the portrait of Saint Paul and the Saint Vincent Panels:

I have been through this one in the forum; a good realistic evidence on the period swords. Actually i have a set of bronze medals representing this six panel set. But ... sorry my curiosty ... why do you keep calling them black swords ? That was an episode occurred on a particular shipment context; not the typologic name of these swords; unless i am missing something...

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...Yes indeed however the sword I bring notice to is lying on the ground straddled by the Portuguese Officer but I welcome your remark upon the Portuguese weapon...

My bad. Up to now i never focused on the swords of this carving as the other time we discussed it was to try and dechipher the text it contains, with an unsuccessful result, though. As for the sword on the ground, i wouldn't know what it is; although i would venture what it is not; a Kastane ... and neither the often cited (in Portuguese chronicles) Calachurro, that used by Lascarins with a length visibly shorter than the one depicted. Bt let me no decisive on the subject,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... The sword basic form is Benin African tribal ... I can see how this may have been rehilted by the Portuguese dominant in the region but I think it premature to link the hilt with the Sri Lankan examples on Kastanes... On your reference this is a European Lion...

Benin origin as said by the author. My imagination drives me to realize that, following the practice had with the ivory and bronze objects from Benin, seen in the best musems out there ( Met ... British ...), in that those speechless artifacts were ordered by Portuguese navigators to bring home to those interested noble and wealthy, it could well be that such sword blade was hilted (not necessarily rehilted) by a local smith under Portuguese 'customer' instrutions and the setup brought directly home. I fail to see the logic of the loop Around Ceilão, as suggeste by the author/owner. The face of a Portuguese in the bridge is rather plausible, as entire Portuguese soldiers, with crossbow, musket and all, were featured in bronze miniatures and ivory salt cellars.
But an European Lion ... i never thought of that

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... I think we are disgressing too much from the subject, which is the possible relation among the jineta-nimcha-kattara, which bring us to the evolution of their hilts. The Portuguese and Spanish swords from the 15th Century and their parallelism, of course, are a related matter to the jineta.

Don't be so concerned, Gonzalo. If there is someone to be flogged, let it be me. Falcatas are also not in the jinet-nimcha-kattara diet ... and besides, i already made a repair of this hijacking to the thread author (post #2). We may be diverting, but not trespassing the frontiers of what is reasonable ... i hope .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This is a Forum.................

Let us all hold our horses, Ibrahiim !!!

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

This article i have by Leandro Saudan Tristão is largely supported by Quesada Sainz works. I have not read of any evidence other than that of his Greek origin theory. He is so keen in illustrating Greeks handling Kopides and mentioning their introduction in the Iberian Peninsula (V AC), brought by mercenaries who have participated in the Sicilian wars.

Quesada mention another origin, based on a Italian-Mediterranean model, anthough he analyses the Greek hypothesis. Please see Fernando Quesada Sanz, Arma y Símbolo: La Falcata Ibérica, Instituto Alicantino de Cultura Juan Gil-Albert, España, 1992. I have only a photocopy that a friend from Spain sent me. You can also download this two pdf's by Quesada Sanz:

En Torno al Orígen y Procedencia de la Falcata Ibérica

Máchaira, Kopis, Falcata

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh ...did i say that ?

No, you didn't. The author you quoted did, or at least, implied it.

Originally Posted by fernando

If i agree with that, i will be accused of nationalism .

Without any reason. It is well known that the mayor sea explorations of the Spaniards were actually carried by Genoese and Portuguese capitains, re: Colón and Fernão de Magalhães. And Magalhães made the first trip around the whole world, despite the mutinous Spaniards, who were afraid. Just as with Colón. To be more precise Elcano had to finish the exploration, since Magalhães died, but the voyage was his.

Originally Posted by fernando

So you don't have the book; apart from all fantasy contained in the tales and doubts on weapon's attributions, it is an excelent work.

That is correct, I don't have it. During my Internet black-out I lost the opportunity to download several books...as Oswaldo Lamartine's.

Originally Posted by fernando

I don't recall which swords Antonio had in his page; maybe some are similar (not the same) but, as far as remember, there was no detail on the pictures.

Discoveries Swords

And thank you very much for your link. A succulent text.

Regards

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Falcatas are also not in the jinet-nimcha-kattara diet

They are, since we analyze the possible influence of the falcata on the equine form of the nimcha hilt.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

in that those speechless artifacts were ordered by Portuguese navigators to bring home to those interested noble and wealthy

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I have been through this one in the forum; a good realistic evidence on the period swords. Actually i have a set of bronze medals representing this six panel set. But ... sorry my curiosty ... why do you keep calling them black swords ? That was an episode occurred on a particular shipment context; not the typologic name of these swords;

Which is?

Now, since I wouldn't like to make frivolous divagations (too busy with my readings), I will not insist on this subject and just ask you to compare the swords by Nuno Gonçalves from those represented in the "Santo Domingo de Silos" by Bartolomé Bermejo, 15th Century. Left panel, upper image. It is in the opposite side of the Iberic Peninsula, the Kingdom of Aragón:


Santo Domingo de Silos

Regards

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...Quesada mention another origin, based on a Italian-Mediterranean model, anthough he analyses the Greek hypothesis...

Thank you for the links; not able to open either... yet.
I confess that, reading this document i posted and the fraction i uploaded with a ceramic work in which Greeks are rehearsing an atack with swords visibly the type of the Kopides, my non scholar interest was satisfied. Needless to say that the Helenic origin theory is also embraced by other sources; i don't know if inspired by Quesada Sanz. In any case and quoting again the work i linked, we may read that Sanz mentions also as origin Souhern Albania and the Etruscan lands, here spotted a century later. Whether this type of weapon originated in Northern Greece and travelled to those other places, after all no so distant from eachother, is a riddle i will leave for academics endeavour.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... It is well known that the mayor sea explorations of the Spaniards were actually carried by Genoese and Portuguese capitains, re: Colón and Fernão de Magalhães. And Magalhães made the first trip around the whole world, despite the mutinous Spaniards, who were afraid. Just as with Colón. To be more precise Elcano had to finish the exploration, since Magalhães died, but the voyage was his...

I could add here a couple commas but, this would be a subject for a different thread.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...That is correct, I don't have it. During my Internet black-out I lost the opportunity to download several books...as Oswaldo Lamartine's.

I don't think HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES is downloadable. Antonio must have scanned the examples you link from the book itself, as i deed ... and actually they are the same i posted above.
I was referring to another link where he shows a row of Portuguese weapons. Also in his web page he has/had an article on his visit to Rainer Dahehnartd's house (much before i did), where he photographed one or two other swords; a different context.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Which is? ... since I wouldn't like to make frivolous divagations (too busy with my readings), I will not insist on this subject and just ask you to compare the swords by Nuno Gonçalves from those represented in the "Santo Domingo de Silos" by Bartolomé Bermejo, 15th Century..

I wouldn't know if they ought to have a type 'name', other than a tipology type, but certainly not, as i know of, such allegorical 'black sword' one in that context; surely not 'frivolous divagation' swords, in any case .
What is there to compare ... what is obvious ? Portuguese, Spanish, Iberian, even Venetian.
On the other hand, it is amazing how the artist could envisage Saint Paul with a navigator sword .
I remember having been here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=panels

BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path .


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't know if they ought to have a type 'name', other than a tipology type, but certainly not, as i know of, such allegorical 'black sword' one in that context; surely not 'frivolous divagation' swords, in any case .
What is there to compare ... what is obvious ? Portuguese, Spanish, Iberian, even Venetian.
On the other hand, it is amazing how the artist could envisage Saint Paul with a navigator sword .
I remember having been here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=panels

BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path .
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On seeing your library reference~ Without doubt some of the best artwork presented on this Forum and looking at the original thread I don't understand why it didn't go on to be a blockbuster in this regard. These early artworks are a beacon of light. I noted how the late Matchlock, Michael(RIP) admired such illustrations.

In these Iberian ...and in fact Mediterranean forms there is clear and undisputed free association of design although it is difficult to nail down a specific date where one form flows into the next. I wondered if the Jewish expulsion question from Spain can be viewed in explaining the redistribution of sword makers around the region may be part of the equation. In 1492 when the great expulsion took place see http://www.sephardicstudies.org/1492account.html where it states that most were artisans and for example the King of Turkey welcomed those that made it...as he was aware of their expertise... at making arms. Thus it was that these peoples were spread around and must have gone where their specialty was best received ... It is suggested that weapon spread of design and style must have featured highly in their technique thus diffusion of design probably took place widely.

To me two countries (but not only two) in particular are responsible for the world wide spread of sword variants... Spain and Portugal ... The Papal act Treaty_of_Tordesillas 1494 and closely related treaties to 1530 and onwards which split the Atlantic between the two must be instrumental in farming out the potential for spreading form from each source. (But not only that factor)

In fact this didn't altogether prevent each country from doing a little trespassing... and ships going the long way round and via Acapulco soon found the short way home via the Indian Ocean.

In effect hardly any country took a blind bit of notice of this treaty and it could be argued that it simply heated up the race for territorial expansion all around. In itself this comes as another factor in sword design copy and transfer..Interesting.

The thread is a good one although I repeat that insofar-as the header...Jineta/nimcha/kattara is concerned Jinetta and Nimcha are related and relatable but the third is not; Kattara has nothing to do with either.

The Papal act dividing up the world can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

and below an idea of the sea chart supporting it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

And if that were not enough please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Union

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

... BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path . .

It is true that this thread was launched in 2008; it continued with its original topic being discussed untill 2011; and then it went frozen untill now. Perhaps it is no crime to give it a new stretch, even admiting that the intrinsic sense of the original topic may expand to a determined liberty ... which we may baptize as "side topic" material.

I will start by uploading pictures of the falcatas from that catalogue i have previously mentioned (and as already requested by Gonzalo) and later will add to this post some considerations introduced in such catalogue, about the Weapons of the Iberian Iron Age, written by authors other than those quoted by Gonzalo, but which approach, even admitedly outdated, seems to be worth to consider.
In a next post, i will upload further pictures of the same catalogue, in order to help me raise some empirical crazy questions about the turned quillon saga.


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[fernando]

As i see it written out there, the falcata Iberica may not go without its counterpart, the La Tene type sword, an inheritance of the Halstadt period, with its 'antena' grip evolution. It appears that either style found its location in different parts of the Peninsula, apparently due to their distinct migration directions.
When discussing which of these two types was used by the famous Viriato, a Lusitanian tribal warrior that dared to confrontate and managed to significantly delay the Roman invasion, conclusion would be that he used mainly the La Tene (a model with a straight blade in opposition to sickle shaped falcata), a style that pleased the Romans, to the extent that they adopted it for his weaponry equipment, calling it Gladius Hispaniensis (they called Hispania to the whole Peninsula).
We know that all this is of common knowledge, even boring for a connoisseur like Gonzalo; however my reach atempt is another, one that goes beyond common sense, that still i dare put things in a different angle; not academic or scholar, only empirical, certainly closer to insanity. When i collected coins i acquired a couple ancient Indian coins, dating back to many centuries before Christ. This took me to browse on the origin of money currency; well i found two locations running in the same championship, the author saying that maybe one didn't copy or picked the idea from the other. They happened to simultaneousy felt such necessity, and so they went ahead minting coins, one not knowing about the other. I don't recall the exact details, but the moral of the story is what matters here. Sword guards, quillons, curved quillons, extremely curved quillons; what precisely were they for ... blade catchers, finger defences, adornments, religious symbols, scabbard adjustment implements ? And why have they been necessarily copied from the neighborhood or remote domains ? I know this is a subject that gives reason of existance to scholars, but for those who fancy simpler explanations, perspectives arise that switch another kind of complicometer, that of an ignarus. Look at these Iberian antena swords from the Hallstatl period, VI to V century BC. Aren't those quillons on their guards ... even down turned, although of reduced dimensions ? And, for a couple seconds, compare them with those of the Omani Kattara. I know i must be out of my mind, but ... how in hell those Iberians (whoever) cared to apply such things in their sword guards ?


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[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Sword guards, quillons, curved quillons, extremely curved quillons; what precisely were they for ... blade catchers, finger defences, adornments, religious symbols, scabbard adjustment implements ? And why have they been necessarily copied from the neighborhood or remote domains?

I completely agree with this reasoning. This is why I always quesion in my mind the statements about such and such influences over a specific development and try to search if the features supposedly due to foreign influences does not in fact come from indigenous traditions. Unfortunately, there are many gaps in the archaeological record and we can not trace the cultural evolution of many features. This is specially severe in the case of prehistorical-prewriting cultures, in the case where certain cultures were systematically destoyed or in the case of those countries where the lack of resources does not allow extensive archaeological research and/or the climate does not favors the preservation of remains.

And please don't credit me. I am not a connoisseur. I am just trying to learn and confront my ideas with those of others, to test them. On the falcatas or on the subject of influences, maybe it should be better if you open a new thread.

Regards

[Gonzalo G]

Though it is known today the incredibly far reaching connections since prehistoric times the peoples from around the world, except perhaps Australia and America, always had. The influences existed, and also had a far reaching effect. The crossing paths were the most benefited from this interchange, specially the Mediterranean Culture.