Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments - Page 3

fernando · 28th November 2011, 10:31 PM

Hi Gene

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Heavy military blade ...

I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous

Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.

Atlantia · 28th November 2011, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene

I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous

Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.

Hi Nando,

Heavy in this rapier-esq guise

Atlantia · 28th November 2011, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Gene! Sensational riposte!!!!! La!!!!!

All the best,
Jim

LOL, Thank you kindy Jim

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2011, 11:31 PM

Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture

It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types.
I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon.

This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required.

Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers.

The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station.
While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.

katana · 2nd December 2011, 11:11 PM

Hi Gene

,
have you considered whether this is a 19th C dueling sword

.....sword schools (teaching traditional fencing ie rapier) and secretive (illegal) duelling were still popular early 19th -mid 19thC , in France but,especially in Germany ....

All the best mate
David

Atlantia · 7th December 2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture

It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types.
I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon.

This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required.

Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers.

The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station.
While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.

Hi Jim,

The quest continues. Still no definative answers but I live in hope!
I've had the chance to show it to a couple of friends (collectors) with positive reviews but still no exact provenance.

I'm sure an answer will eventually turn up..... I just hope it's in my lifetime

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 7th December 2011, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Gene

,
have you considered whether this is a 19th C dueling sword

.....sword schools (teaching traditional fencing ie rapier) and secretive (illegal) duelling were still popular early 19th -mid 19thC , in France but,especially in Germany ....

All the best mate
David

Hi David,

Thanks for coming into this mate.
I haven't considered that possibility. Excellent, thank you.

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 28th January 2012, 09:19 PM

The Spanish Bilbo thread has thrown up an interesting development for this thread as well.
Valjhuns Klingenthal 'rapier' shows striking similarities in hilt style (One less quillion I know) to a sword pictured in Nandos last post:

broadaxe · 4th February 2012, 07:26 PM

Similar, but 19th century work. Dueling rapier is a possibility, but as I've researched that topic several years ago and met with one of the world's leading authorities (Maitre Jaque Castanet), dueling rapiers of the period usually had triangular stiff blade, the direct father of the olympic epee, with various hilts - mostly cup hilt.

28th January 2012, 09:19 PM	#68
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The Spanish Bilbo thread has thrown up an interesting development for this thread as well. Valjhuns Klingenthal 'rapier' shows striking similarities in hilt style (One less quillion I know) to a sword pictured in Nandos last post: Attached Images

28th November 2011, 11:31 PM	#64
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types. I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon. This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required. Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers. The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station. While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.

2nd December 2011, 11:11 PM	#65
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Gene , have you considered whether this is a 19th C dueling sword .....sword schools (teaching traditional fencing ie rapier) and secretive (illegal) duelling were still popular early 19th -mid 19thC , in France but,especially in Germany .... All the best mate David

4th February 2012, 07:26 PM	#69
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Similar, but 19th century work. Dueling rapier is a possibility, but as I've researched that topic several years ago and met with one of the world's leading authorities (Maitre Jaque Castanet), dueling rapiers of the period usually had triangular stiff blade, the direct father of the olympic epee, with various hilts - mostly cup hilt.