![]() |
|
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
![]() |
#61 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 478
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#62 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#63 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#64 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#65 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,896
|
![]()
Actually 'Occams Razor' typically does prevail in most investigative cases, but not all of course. It does remarkably depend on the character and values of the investigation, and in reality in these kinds of cases it is difficult to classify subjective meanings to a particular decoration or symbol.
It becomes very much a 'Rorschach' test in a sense as different ideas will be the perceptions of different people. I think here we are seeking any possible or likely value or tradition which might apply to beaded decoration in South India. I don't think that such views are in any way irreverent as expressed, and what is meant is that as often expressed, often decoration is applied aesthetically and perhaps may recall certain reverent or auspicious features. I think this is actually a respectful expression of a highly regarded element or form intended to enhance. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#66 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 368
|
![]() Quote:
The number of channels of Tibetan influence on the weapon style of China and Japan was very small. First of all, it is Tibetan Buddhism and its religious meaning. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#67 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]() Quote:
And, indeed.... what else? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#68 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
|
![]()
We are all talking about the same thing, but from different points of view. It is clear that these beads are just embellishment (on weapons of 16-19th century, which we know and study). In ancient time, as I believe, real small bells could be attached to weapons, as it is sometimes found on weapons for Indian fests and performances. But we must understand that aesthetic perception is not taken from nowhere. If generations of Indian artists (from childhood to old age) had seen the three-beam star of Mercedes-Benz at all holidays and events around, it would find expression in art sooner or later.
Especially if this star had a sacral and ritual significance ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#69 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
Although I am still waiting for the key picture in this regard to upload>>>the raised dot style border>>>>>>> I can assure you that I have the definitive artefact in the bag! A tile from the MASOUD III PALACE in GAZNI Afghanistan in precisely this style> This was found to be pre Islamic Iranian ...the building was occupied up to 1221 but sacked by the Mongolians. The publication containing the item is shown below and is a British Museum publication.
![]() Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 12th March 2019 at 08:05 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#70 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
|
![]() Quote:
... already almost... As I can see. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#71 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#72 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
THAT TILE . Here it is …This passage makes specific reference to these dotted/beaded border tiles as being pre Islamic Iranian and portraying mythical beasts with this very specific decoration with raised dots / bead style... in words to that effect... and being so early as to show promise in my view across the regions with perhaps transmission into the Indian Ocean areas as well as on Pilgrimages to Mecca? and into India.. Technical transfer of patterns took place as war trade and travel in the form of Pilgrimages and exploration was common as well as the bounty of winner takes all in wars... This also included the requisitioning of artisans who would frequently be transferred to the winning sides into schools of excellence royal court workshops and other centres of workmanship as a natural too ing and fro ing of expertise.
Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 12th March 2019 at 08:47 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#73 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
Taking the jewellery making situation in tandem with the revelations on ceramics here are a few pictures showing Hindu work; clearly an ancient skill and the picture of the workers in India from a sketch of a Company workshop (EIC?) in 1850 and illustrating the handed down time proven techniques obviously going back many centuries along with the ancient dies illustrated also showing the beaded edge on several of the exhibits. The dotted border arm jewellery showing the very old Hindu Deity indicates an ancient form and where that style may have easily transferred to weapons arms and armour making as previously shown at #1 etc... coupled with the respect a beaded border had already been given in pre Islamic Iranian ceramics..
![]() Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 12th March 2019 at 08:50 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#74 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 368
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#75 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,896
|
![]() Quote:
Me too! Always ready to learn ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#76 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 478
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#77 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
At #47 the illustrated publication rattles on at great lengths about the bead and its attachment to American Indian History not to mention the value as a trade item... Trade beads travelled the globe in this role. It is reasonable to assume the raised dot or to give it the correct term dome was associated with beads thus the term beaded border... weaving its way across jewellery, arms n armour and ceramics. Doming is in fact the name of the technique for producing this beaded effect in Jewellery making across the Hindu spectrum.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#78 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]()
" Why the bead?"
I think because it all started with necklaces. We see them in virtually every archeological excavation and in every contemporary primitive culture : shell necklaces, nut necklaces, pebble necklaces, teeth necklaces... Europeans carried necklace beads to every corner of the Earth they traveled to as a "fair" exchange currency for gold, gems, spices, hides etc. More technologically advanced non-European societies manufactured their own beads, initially likely for the same necklaces, then for prayer beads ( known in Greece since 17 century B.C.E.) and then it became just such a common prettyfying element, that it was used for many types of jewelry ( including sophisticated filigree) and any other object, including weapons. PS. I missed Ibrahiim's post and agree with him completely. Again, I do not think we are talking about some highfalutin' sacral origins, just a practical approach at adorning our females :-) Happy wife, - happy life. Last edited by ariel; 13th March 2019 at 08:45 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#79 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 478
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#80 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 90
|
![]()
Popping in again to give my 2 cents on what's being talked about.
Personally, I'm rather satisfied with the link to old decorative forms. As uninteresting as it may be, I concede that it does make the most sense. That said, I must raise the question as to what these beads or more broadly what necklaces or similarly decorated accessories meant in old Indian culture. A purely decorative motif is one thing, but when it's applied to humans all the time one (or at least I) can't help but think at some point it was given some sort of meaning. Another question - if the beaded edge (in A&A) is such a decorative motif, why is it not seen more frequently in status pieces (the belongings of royalty and so forth) and why are these beads not separately or distinctly decorated? My memory may be failing me on the former point, so feel free to post "museum quality" examples of beaded hilts and prove me wrong, but I can't recall the last time I saw a beaded hilt with any real fancy decoration. From what I can recall most extent hilts are either undecorated metal or covered in unbroken sheets of precious metal, instead of say, being decorated with koftgari in a manner separate from the rest of the hilt (gold covered beads but silver hilt, for example) or having actual jewels inlaid in the beads. Again, maybe there are some examples out there, but I at least can't remember seeing any. I guess I'm actually not fully satisfied with the beads being decorative just yet ![]() Also don't want to distract from the latest topic of "why beads?", but I personally have nothing to add to that. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#81 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
I have to point out that none of the references are actually beads. They are domes ...Doming is a jewellery metalworking technique where half round shapes are produced in a cube shaped brass former so these decorative shapes although possibly thought of as beads are not... The Ceramic tile pre Islamic Iranian and the weapons and the jewellery all illustrate this technique. Heres a gold addition from Hindu Jewellery making ...
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#82 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
A South India weapon with the raised dot form under the handguard at the throat...
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#83 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 90
|
![]()
Did some looking, found an example from the 16th century of an Indian dagger with what looks like beading on the inside of a vegetal motif. Might just have been used to give the plants texture...
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|