Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate.
Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!!
You've really put together quite a library there.

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

......please dont tell me you have Aries!!

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me

All the Best
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Thanks Jeff for the plate. Another had offered some other text and plate in formation with descriptions of French swords from the first empire on. That naval counterguard exactly is on a sword I transfered. My previously held example has been described first empire, so yes; a little later than the five ball trend itself. I'm also attaching a hilt that is rather crude. Also, though, from other texts placing it to the '90s but the blade possibly earlier. All I have read of the five-balls (and agreeably I have far fewer text references) has been mentioned as the '80s when they first appear. This one does not look very English at all in build. Possibly even assembled in the colonies but others have refered to it as continental (yet without a French provenance)

I guess I have to more than bow to the Anglaise designation as definitive but I wll continue to look at other origins and evolution.

Cheers

Hotspur; great stuff and thanks again

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

Well, I would somewhat disagree some of the information as published being a beginning of royalty buying into guild/craft membership. Somewhat ancillary was an earlier link I offered regarding trade, guilds and sponsorship. George III was also the underwriter to the Odd Fellows and granted their charter. An affair that goes right back to the more open/publicly known network of the Freemasons.

King George’s father was a Freemason. Frederick Lewis, Prince of Wales (1707-1751), was heir to the throne of his father King George II. Frederick Lewis was of paramount importance because he was the first Royal Freemason. Once royalty entered the Craft, then everybody wanted to join, and the fraternity was assured of success. Frederick Lewis led a hedonistic lifestyle and died before his father, thrusting his son George III onto the thrones of England and Hanover in 1760 at the age of 20.

At about the time that Friday the 13th came about, England continued to support the Templars through transfers to the Hospitalliers. Few were charged with anything so much as a modern description of a misdemeanor. EIII became the treasurer of all the efforts previoulsy administered by the Templars. In a sense, Free Masonry and the Templars kind of relate an unbroken chain of networking and guild (craft) that parallels later advents such as the Odd Fellows. Edward the third bought his ticket into the linen armourers guild, his sons likewise. The Order Of The Garter was another continuation for fraternal purposes.

Then later in the 14th century being led to London against the same family during the march of Wat Tyler (sic). Was that last simply a guild struggle? I dunno.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am now probably just rambling about my readings from different stories of history

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely Glen, research never stops!!!



The 'spadroon' shown in the top picture I believe is British as the 'cigar band' affectation did not occur elsewhere, as I understand. Interesting image of Pegusus (?) in the guard, and I am wondering if this might have been special order (as I believe these were) possibly to a yeomanry officer? Returning to Masonic, and even perhaps heraldic symbolism, which such unusual image might have associations with, there were instances where the lodge sentinels, the Tiler, actually had swords made for thier duties. Again, the sword could certainly have been worn in regimental duty as well.

The second sabre seems profoundly French, the black ebony fluted vertically is an affectation seen in many French sabres of the turn of the century. Also the blade in cross section with fuller to centre point is the Montmorency cross section I believe, also of this period. Interestly James Wooley of Birmingham often used this style cross section in his blades, so there remains that possibility.



As devils advocate, I have found some information that may subscribe to the aesthetics approach, and I include it here as I think it is important to present all possibilities whether for or against a theory.

In going through many references on smallswords looking for possible examples using this type of motif, it is interesting that the late Mr. A.V.B. Norman, one of the most astute scholars on hilt forms, does not make specific mention of any possible symbolism in these five ball hilts. I looked through both his "Smallswords and Military Swords" (1966) as well as the magnificent "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (1980) which revealed no mention than the obvious description using the motif.

It does seem that smallswords of the 18th century, and particularly after the advent of the rococo period, showed an affinity for representation of paste jewellery, indeed many hilts were fashioned by jewellers. The closeness of beads to images of pearls is quite clear, and in certain Eastern swords with bearings enclosed in open channels the beads are often called 'pearls'.
The fascination for the Eastern European hussars and thier sabres was well established and their flamboyant fashion much admired.

One very important and well known regiment was that of Esterhazy's Hussars in mid to latter 18th century. The sabres of officers of this colorful Hungarian regiment (as seen in Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", p.406, pl.36) has a string of beads (pearls) extending the length of the knuckleguard.
Whether this rather ostenascious style extended into the sabres of other officers of the time is unclear, and it hardly seems that this affectation on a single type of sabre used by the limited number of officers might influence an entire sword style. However, it does seem that the motif did appear in a number of places, which may have entered into the design.

Returning to Masonic possibilities, it is the numeric that is key, not the element of motif.

All best regards,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Hi Jim,

The figure in wonder is a hippocanthus (also written as campe and campus), or sea horse and very much a French sword "in the style of", as are others depicted above. I will try to find the first empire example of a ship's transom decoration but am still plowing through old and misplaced image libraries (although I did get my drive loaded to this one). I do have another plate that was shared with descriptions as well but I am shamed not to remember the book offered (if not ideed the same text another had put up).

It had been described by a dealer as an American artillery officer sword via his seeing the pommel type and as described in Peterson. I took it as a dragoon de ville epee before I had it in hand and then sea horses came into it.

The practice of three swords for an officer was not (apparentlY) singular to French practices but the one I pictured fits those descriptions exactly. A dress, or about town eppe. A highly decorated parade sword and duty sword of plainer nature also work in a trio of emsemble.

I wonder if the term horse latitudes for the Atlantic is a purely French or British trait.

Cheers

Hotspur; lost my hydraulics Friday and need to go chat up my mechanic

Edit for those two book plates and I'm unsure who the author is or the book title. It is firgure 9 that lists them as "a l'anglaise"

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me

All the Best
Jeff

LOL! Know what ya mean! Once upon a time I collected British regulation cavalry swords. Just for kicks I looked up "Swords for Sea Service" (2 vol.)...yikes...think I better put em in a vault!

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards?

Hi Glen,
Sorry I missed this question on the first go round. I am not sure what the diamond is ment for. I read somewhere that Francis Thurkle used it. I have no idea what it represents. I will see if I can find the reference.

Hi Jim,
I am glad I am not the only one

All the best.
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Hi Jeff,

That example was the very first time I had seen these in counterguards. I made the mistake of not striking the iron when it was hot and that one dissapeared back in 2006. I am currently stalking another spadroon that bears the diamond and would be curious (but should be poking around Mowbray's tome again) who supplied blades for Thurkle. Other Englishmen that responded to my query back then mentioned it was just another styling. I believe Jim had some thoughts on a sweetheart counterguard design on a late Wundes bladed hussar. i get sidetracked from specifically eagle head pommel interests. I had a chat and examination about that hussar and Jeff Forgeng of the Higgins was thinkging possibly Scandinavian but definitely earlier than what time some had placed it in. Most likely (by his and other estimations) third quarter and perhaps even earlier.

There are some other swords that are MAsonic related that I never bothered to archive but coming to mind was a Swedish smallsword of the late 18th century quite bedecked with symbology. I would have to go searching for that if it had indeed been on one forum or another.

Thurkle was my first thought as well, as I had just been starting serious rework of everything eagle pommel. Mowbray's frontpiece example from Thurkle has that diamond. Ther are not terribly rare but are few and far in between. All seem to be from about that period of the last quarter 18th century.

Then there is this little nubbin on yet another spadroon ahd I could only imagine it was to position a knot. Were beading implemental to holding a knot in place? Enquiring minds and all that. Jean Binck sorted me out on another knot/scabbard tie, so this lil nubbin has had me wondering for a year or so (another I couldn't chase to my pen that time)

Cheers

Hotspur; I have the hussar pictures quite handy for that one

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much guys, this thread just keeps getting better! and Jeff, the note on Thurkle and the note on his use of the diamond has been driving me mad ! You know there will be no sleep until I find it!

Interesting note Glen on the sweetheart design, and while the topic seems familiar, it must have been some time ago as it doesnt come readily to mind. I do know that over the years I did do a lot of research on the use of the heart shape in hilt and mounts motif. Naturally little conclusive resulted, although it did lead to some interesting communications with some most interesting discussions.
It does seem that the heart shape does occur a great deal in Scottish baskethilts in the piercings in the saltires.......perhaps this design in the hilt of a Scottish officers sabre ?

It was actually Charles Whitelaw whose suggestion concerning certain Jacobite symbolism was behind some motif in sword hilts that led me to pursuing the idea that there may be more to such things than simple aesthetics.

I am really curious now on the 'Wundes' hussar sabre, and the note that it may be Scandinavian. Whatever the case the hilt certainly does seem to correspond to those of third quarter 18th.

I would really like to know more on the Swedish smallsword with much symbolism bedecked. What was the nature of this, hilt elements or blade decoration or both? I hate to ask as I know you are in the throes of computer chaos, but my curiosity has the best of me as always.

I do know that I have seen articles on superstitious symbolism and beliefs pertaining to weapons during I believe 17th-18th c. which was published in "Varia" the Swedish journal of the Swedish Arms and Armour Society.
Whether pertinant or not it seemed worthy of note.

The note on fixtures emplaced for holding a knot, i.e. sword knot, is interesting, and though I am not sure these beaded applications would serve in any special manner for same would be the case, it is an interesting suggestion. I do know that a M1796 light cavalry sabre I had that was most certainly a yeomanry example with ivory grips and gilt brass hilt, had a rectangular fixture at the center of the crossguard. This was specifically to hold a sword knot, and while I thought its placement that close to the blade was unusual, I later found references that claimed this recalled a 'Polish' style sabre which had this feature.
I sure miss seeing Jean's posts, and sincerely hope we will hear from again soon.

Regarding the spadroon shown in the two sword post, I had completely overlooked the strange hippocanthus, and being most unfamiliar with French swords in general, had not recognized it. When I thought of Pegasus, I did wonder what in the world that tail was though !
As clearly these French swords were often done 'in the style of' , the swords l'anglaise would certainly have, in instances, duplicated the 'cigar band' around the grip, of the British styles, so my comment stating the feature was strictly British was missspoken, and thought of in general application.

Now, back to the search for the 'Thurkle diamond' ...and I 'Hope' I can find it!

All best regards,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Hi Jim,

Here is a picture of a sword labeled as Swedish and about the 1780s. The odd paart about my coming across it today is that it wasb't the sword Iw as looking for, which may simply mean there are more associated 18th century clearly masonic decorated sword blades than we may think. It wa sa few years ago, so my mind may be misremembering as well but I'm pretty sure it was one as elaborate but with blue and gilt.

Regarding hearts on arms and armour, I have my own perspective on the talisman's of the Catholic church at large and could easily redraw it once again in yet another hearts thread. Heart, chalice, cup, tarot (you may see where I am going in terms and classes of sociology, wands, spades, coins). Again, I look at that from a much stronger continental influence than simly the pierced baskets used in both England and Scotland.

As to sword fixture and knots, it is one more egg in the big basket as so few are depicted in both art and research in descriptions. The salty parrot beak I pictured can have no other purpose I can think of for such a simple artifice of that hilt. It certainly has no aesthetic value I can see. To see knots quite wound around the guard bow does not seem unusual in pictures of later swords.

Ah well, off to look for the Swedish sword some more, unless it really was the one pictured. From the long SFI smallsword thread.

Cheers

Hotspur; there are a lot of swords in that long thread but this one did come up as Swedish and Masonic

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

Well, yes, of course Mowbray does picture an example by Thurkle (it is on the front of his cloth bound) but I cannot associate some of the other examples I have shown this thread and elsewhere, simply because one blade is clearly labeled as Wooley and others simply not too Thurkle.

Cheers

Hotspur; I had recently acquired the Mowbray(the younger)/Flayderman Medicus title and really do need to spend quality time with it.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jeff and Glen,
You guys are truly masters of esoterica!!! and thank you so much Jeff for finding the reference! Another book I wish I had ! Andrew Mowbray was brilliant as a researcher and had a true passion for eagleheads.
On Thurkle, what was said about the diamond motif? etc.

Glen, thank you for the great pics of this fascinating colichmarde, and excellent example of what appears Masonic motif of the period. It would be interesting to discover more about what particular symbolism might have been favored by the lodges in various countries, as well as associated brotherhoods.

On the heart, it does seem there were discussions a while ago where this occurred in certain cases on Eastern European blade motif, I think it was Polish. I'll have to look for those notes.....we're really digging into some dusty old material here!!!

On another note, on this blade, the five point star seems to have the letter 'G' in the center. While it is often debated on the meaning, one suggestion is that is has to do with geometry, as it often appears in the center of the crossed compass and square of Masonic symbolism, geometry of course the mainstay of the craft. In discussions again of some time ago, the use of the star in Masonic symbolism was one topic.

Returning to the 'Thurkle diamond', in looking into the diamond shape as perhaps seen in symbolism, the compass and square form this shape which encloses the 'G'.

I know that these forays into occult and esoteric symbolism often are met with considerable skepticism and disregard by many, but I think that investigating the symbolism in weapons is a fascinating aspect not typically undertaken, so I really appreciate the participation here.
Thank you guys!!

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

My thoughts on hearts mentioned elsewhere in 2005.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5081

As the Holy Roman Empire lasted well into exporting themes from the continent, I do tend to look at a lot of stylistic issues as western expansion (ie England)

If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic.

Cheers

Hotspur; Myself, being post stroke and still having some thought process issue, it is simply easier to offer what I have already posted (published).

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,


"Figure 1.A
Naval Officers' Sword ca. 1795 (Francis Thurkle)

One of the more commonly encountered Thurkle hiltings featuring a counter guard containing a pierced diamond- see detail."

Thats about it, Glen is correct he doesn't state that it is exclusive to Thurkle, just that it is common to them. Good eye on the square and compass motif. Actually look at the reflection off the ferrule, looks even closer .

Hi Glen,
Please go ahead and link, I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed.

All the Best
Jeff

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic.

There is no prohibition here about linking to relevant discussions elsewhere, indeed, if they enhance the discussion such links are encouraged. The one caveat, of course, would be links with a commercial purpose, so 'visit my web store to see one of these for sale' would not receive a favorable moderator's response. Links to dealer's 'sold' pages to illustrate examples remain permissible unless a member has been specifically advised otherwise by a member of the moderators team.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

... My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic...

Originally Posted by Jeff D

... I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed...

Originally Posted by Lee

... There is no prohibition here about linking to relevant discussions elsewhere, indeed, if they enhance the discussion such links are encouraged....

What a nice sequence; worthy of note .

Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Very nicely said Gentlemen!!! and I am glad we all agree that our endeavors in learning together, sharing information and ideas far surpasses the pettiness too often seen in well known instances that are better left behind us.

Glen, please link away!!! and I really look forward to the detailed and well thought out material that you always share in your writing. I totally agree on trying to recapture material that has already been written in depth....its tough to try to recount accurately and with the same impact usually.

Onward!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Fearn and Gonzalo,

As already resumed in post # 3:
Spadroon: Obs. exc. Hist.1798 (ad. Genevan dialect espadron,= french espadon) A sword much lighter than a broadsword, and made both to cut and thrust.
(The Oxford Universal Dictionary)

Yes, Fearn, it is a fact that the augmentative suffix on, one or ão (portuguese), may also have a diminutive sense. This exception however sometimes is not correlative between latinic languages. Chaton, in portuguese gatão, is not often used, but does have the sense of large cat.

Ah, Gonzalo, pelota would very a popular term in spanish but is indeed a fench word (pelote), inherited from the provençal (pelota).

Pontoon, ponton, pontão is fact a bridge making element, but is also a little bridge, this being the aception mostly used in Portugal/portuguese.

Fernando

Nando, thank you for your comments. I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant. If jambiyya means "hip" it does not authorize to call "jambiyyas all daggers carried on the hip. Szabla is an historic weapon, with clear features, including a curved blade, no matter what the name meant originally. If it is a fact that the term is used in other sense and is accepted as such in english, it is all what I wanted to know. It only surprised me.

Fearn, I enjoy your comments, as always.

[fernando]

Hi Gonzalo

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant...

It is not a question of relevancy; it was just because:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I'd like to open some discussion on the term 'spadroon', the etymology...

Sorry .

Saludos

Fernando.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

A wonderful and most informative thread. Thank you all for your inputs.

Without being a linguist, I can fairly confidently say that languages rely to a very considerable degree on prevailing conventions. And these conventions impart the meaning to many words used. For example, `Cool' today can have a very different meaning than say a hundred years ago.

Often, in a given era, certain terms were used synonymously with other terms, which in a later era were sharply differentiated - The nomenclature of Gaucho knives immediately springs to mind, as do ancient fencing terms. It is the researcher's task to unravel what a particular term meant then and today. Failure to do so simply leads to confusion and incorrect interpretations.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gonzalo


It is not a question of relevancy; it was just because:



Sorry .

Saludos

Fernando.

No, Fernando. In this point (spadroon) I gave my point of view. And Jim latter stated that the origin of the words were not very important for certain purposes. And then, agreeing with him and in another subject (szabla), I made the above comment. Please don´t be sorry, as there is no reason for.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gonzalo, Fernando and Chris,
I have many times emphasized I am far from being a linguist, but that does not curtail my inate curiosity. You guys are all really good at this stuff, and I really appreciate all the insight into these terms.

After bringing up the topic, and being satisfied with the information presented, it became even more apparant that in studying the weapon itself, the term became somewhat secondary, though not discounting the importance of the observations.

I really just wanted to know if the term itself may have reflected the somewhat pretentious character of the weapon itself, focused on the term spadroon. The szabla thing is irrelevant to what I was seeking, as are reviews of other weaponry terms, despite interesting sidetracks.

Thanks so much guys every time you all talk, I learn!! Outstanding,

All the best,
Jim

[Mark Cloke]

Hi Everyone,

Jim contacted me to tell me about this forum so I have just registered. I recognise a few names on this forum but to those who don't know me my name is Mark Cloke and my area of interest is the Birmingham sword cutlers of the 17th/18th/19th century. Currently researching the 'running fox' mark and 'Harvey'.

On the subject of spadroons and the diamond motif I think we can say that this was not limited to Thurkle. I have seem quite a few of these and they are marked to a wide array of London and provincial cutlers. I wouldn't rule out Thurke introducing it (someone had to be first) but in my opinion it could have been anyone. I also wouldn't rule out a single 'hilt maker' supplying them to a wide array of cutlers. Some of these manufacturers often used by the large cutlers such as scabbard makers, hilt makers, engravers etc. are lost to time as only the 'retailers' names are marked (unless in Silver and hallmarked). I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site) with and without the diamond.

I don't really have an opinion on the five ball discussion. The Masonic link does sound interesting and they were certainly very active during this period. Now the seed is in my mind I will see what I can find out.

Mark.

[fernando]

Welcome aboard, Mark .
Fernando

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Mark Cloke

I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site)

Don't worry I already did. You have done a lot of work on it and is a great resource. . Welcome aboard!

Jeff

[fernando]

Hi Mark
Can't you include the link to your site in your profile?
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
Its fantastic to see you here!! Welcome, and thank you for coming aboard.

Please do link to your site, which for the information of those here, is an outstanding resource which reflects the in depth research and detail that is characteristic of Mark's work. His article on the Gill family swordsmiths, which is presented by the Royal Armouries, is an excellent and comprehensive study which holds fascinating information on these important makers.

Mark, thank you for the insight regarding the diamond shape in hilt motif on these spadroons, and it seems that there is little to support any particular symbolism or assign to to a certain maker at this point. The network of hilt makers supplying various cutlers does make it difficult to designate such a design to a single one, and it seems that the diamond theme perhaps may simply be a popular geometric of the period.

The Masonic theory on the five ball hilt is one that I have been thinking on for quite some time, and I reopened the case here for discussion knowing that the core of knowledge here would provide just the venue to look more deeply into the possibilities. Your joining us here is a profound asset, thank you so much, and again welcome!!!

All very best regards,
Jim