Afghan Pulowar blade type?

[ariel]

Well, I just have to draw attention of any interested Forumite to :


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...regular+khyber

Posts ##11 and 12.


In the first one, the author shows 3 Afghani swords, from a mass-produced industrial copy of a real native khyber, with a typical blade and slightly modified handle down to the one with a typical British colonial handle and a European ( or, at the very least, Europe inspired) blade. The author then presents these models as " transitional steps in the evolution of the Khyber from Ethnic to the Regulation"

In the next post, the same author proposes to re-name " the Afghan Military Sword to Afghan Military (or Regulation) Khyber".

I think the message of the treatise was perfectly clear and unequivocal. The author was, indeed, within his rights to propose this classification. This does not mean that others have no right to question his conclusions.

I would submit that we are talking about 2 different items: attempted industrial modification of the native Afghani Khyber on the one hand and an unrelated short sword of a European pattern. The only thing that somehow may put them in the same box is the fact that all of them are short-bladed sidearms.


I am also slightly confused about the "numismatics" remark: does the author have any coins to bolster his conclusions? I'd love to see them.

[Jim McDougall]

Its always good to revisit old threads often even years later, as our knowledge base and ongoing research often offers new perspectives.
This is especially the case with knowledgeable and specialized writers such as Ariel and Mahratt, and I can only present my own understandings of the article and these weapons.

From what I learned, the sword worn by Daoud Shah in the 1879 photo was key in looking into the potential development of the Afghan 'regulation' short sword of the 1890s into around 1900+. Actually the only suggestion of regulation propriety was made by Oriental Arms at some point years ago and now notes misplaced.

What was significant was the appearance of the hilt on his sword which had slotted guard and rolled back terminal near pommel. Since this was 1879, and he certainly had the sword for a nominal period prior, we wonder if this suggested a larger presence of these type hilts pre Mashin Khana. While that state arsenal began in Kabul in 1887, tooling and production began in the early 1890s. My example of one of the 'regulation short swords' is dated 1893 if I recall.

The Dauod Shah sword seems to have a solid grip hilt, unlike the Mashin Khana examples which are admittedly workmanlike and austere. I would submit here that the primary arms production of the Mashin Khana was fireams, specifically current issue Enfields, and note the compelling appearance of these 'regulation' hilts to that of 'sword' bayonets.

The title of the article uses the term 'regulation Khyber knife' and development. Actually the article, excellent in its content, describes more the concurrent use of these distinct parallel slotted guard 'military' hilts on both the 'regulation' short sword AND its tribal cousin the KHYBER knife.
The text of the article addresses this comparatively, but does not mean to suggest that the tribal form of Khyber ('silawar') was 'regulation' BUT that it was contemporary to the production military type short swords which ostensibly were.

The example of the 'colonial' hilt worn by Daoud Shah was the key instance in the search for the development of this hilt form, which was indeed European IN FORM but clearly was produced in Afghan or local regions.

I could find no evidence of this kind of military hilt in either British production sources (including Enfield who indeed did import in degree from Solingen) nor the German sources.

I think the 'nusimatic' reference had to do with study on the Mazir i Sharif or Royal state stamp or device, which was keyed on the coins of the time. The presence of these stamps on both 'regulation' military form swords as well as on examples of the tribal Khybers with military hilts, was instrumental in establishing probable dates for examples in this study.

The term 'Khyber' was used mostly as an implied vernacular term for the military type short swords in tandem with the concurrently used tribal versions with the same hilt.

There is no known existing 'regulation ' for the military type Mashin Khana short sword, any more than any established for the use of the term 'Khyber' for the tribal swords which are actually known locally as 'siliwars'.
Further they are not KNIVES nor YATAGHANS!

Therefore the study aims to show more of a colloquially termed pairing of these edged weapons in their Afghan context of the times.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The title of the article uses the term 'regulation Khyber knife' and development. Actually the article, excellent in its content, describes more the concurrent use of these distinct parallel slotted guard 'military' hilts on both the 'regulation' short sword AND its tribal cousin the KHYBER knife.
.

Exactly my point. The article was carefully researched and the description of the actual objects was exemplary. However, it was based on a wrong premise, tried to forcibly prove an incorrect hypothesis and inevitably reached a wrong conclusion.
There was no evolution. It was not even parallel development ( if by that we mean independent creation of virtually identical constructions). We are talking about 2 different short sidearms present in Afghanistan at the same time period.

[ariel]

The variety of Afghani short sabers was very wide: the blades, the handles, the manner of carrying.
They were no more "regulation" than khybers of different varieties, and the name of those was legion:-)

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the additional images Ariel.

I would like to note that I personally feel responsible in the case of the titling and premise of this article. Actually I participated in editing and constructing the text of the original article which was written by Mahratt, at his request as he was concerned with semantics and language issues.
As I had researched these swords many years before, I should have been able to suggest revisions in the overall premise and text, but being impressed with the volume and character of his research and work inadvertently did not.

In all, as noted previously, the Khyber short swords were not regulation in the true sense, simply notable present in consistency in military context.
The traditional Khyber was interpolated in the mix, with the expected array of variations in all of these in a colonial setting.

The article in and of itself, still carries an impressive insight into the Anglicization of Afghan edged weapons of these times, and the use of the royal arsenal stamp and Mashin Khana factory.

Here, I would suggest we leave the Khyber sword and knife aspects and return to the paluoar as in the original post.
This deviation in the discussion does serve as interesting perspective with associations to the paluoar as these weapons were all contemporary and truly offers certain dimension to the times and place where these were used.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[ariel]

Jim,
I also feel in part responsible: at Mahratt's request I translated this essay into English. I also did not provide my comments about its fatal logical error. Sorry.
There is a lesson for both of us: if we are asked to assist in any way to a young and academically-inexperienced Forumite, we should not be shy to offer constructive critique. The same applies to all our comments: it is not productive just to applaud politely but insincerely: the whole purpose of intellectual exchange is in perfecting a worthy message and rejecting wrong conclusions.
Learning is possible only if a learner is willing to listen to critique and accept it. It would be nice to learn from somebody else's mistakes , but realistically it is our own ones that give us real knowledge and understanding. Some people do not take well to criticism ( no matter how polite and constructive it might be), and those, IMHO, are hopeless.

But back to the Pulouars ( dang, what is the right way to spell this word?:-))))

Here is my other one: brass-inlaid handle, groove-less blade with no Indian ricasso, but with wootz and unusual scabbard stitching: teeny-tiny nails.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim,
Interesting observation. If this is correct, it might help in pinpointing " pseudoshashkas" to North India/Afghanistan and date them around the same time, ie second half of 19th century.
The only problem that there are plenty of purely Indian tulwars with a very similar feature.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
Interesting observation. If this is correct, it might help in pinpointing " pseudoshashkas" to North India/Afghanistan and date them around the same time, ie second half of 19th century.
The only problem that there are plenty of purely Indian tulwars with a very similar feature.

I agree... I ought to add a caveat that the Afghan swords at #64 and the Pulouir style had knuckle guards of a similar type at the top near the Pommel finished in a sort of Goose Neck finial. The project swords have similar finials... It seems the Tulvar and Pulouir are very similar so it may not be surprising that they have similar finials also...This birdhead is certainly sophisticated and mirrors what we learn of Jehangir who personally designed many of these himself.

I should add this ... Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...0hilts&f=false where it is clear that Ottoman hilts copied Mughal form on swords and daggers.

[Jim McDougall]

Ariel,
I was not aware of that, and thank you for acknowledging your part in this situation. I would agree that we indeed should be cautious in our involvement assistance with these kinds of matters, but I would not consider Mahratt inexperienced academically or otherwise. He compiled some impressive data and research to include in the article. It was more a matter of language and syntax in the construction of the article, and it seems these kinds of misalignments are often the crux of misunderstandings.
Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. That said, the volume of knowledge and general experience I have achieved has been through the patience and generosity of so many others in these fields who stood as mentors and friends in working with me through many years.

I think it is good that we can clarify some of these aspects of these interesting edged weapons which are in the spectrum of Afghan arms.
I agree, let us continue.......and further, I have no idea of the correct spelling of paluoar(?) but ?

Ibrahiim, indeed astutely observed on the gooseneck style of the guard, which is tempting in qualifying certain Afghan weapons. This feature, is well known on paluoars, these 'military hilts' and other weapons of northern India. This recurved guard is well known on various Indian tulwar forms, but here I must note it is equally present on many into the Deccan and southern regions. These influences are much too reciprocally diffused throughout Central Asia to depend on them for regional classification, however they can be considered as compelling evidence where certain consistancies are found.

It is evident that this Central Asian feature with Ottoman influences well established is something that might be considered to be prevalent through Mughal channels.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma.

Jim, I never would have guessed if you did not say it yourself!!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jim, I never would have guessed if you did not say it yourself!!

Thank you so much Eric, that is a most kind thing to say !

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ariel,

Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. That said, the volume of knowledge and general experience I have achieved has been through the patience and generosity of so many others in these fields who stood as mentors and friends in working with me through many years.

There are as many ways to skin a cat just as to become a true academic researcher:-)


Education in a particular discipline is important and necessary only in certain cases requiring certification . But Georg Mendel discovered laws of heredity without ever getting any formal biological education. And how many weapon historians and researchers had formal degree in that discipline? Stone was just a metallurgist dealing with non-ferrous alloys:-) Buttin? As a matter of fact, virtually all important contributions into that field were done by the individuals without any specific formal education in weaponry as such.

What you had, Jim, was your ability and willingness to learn, listen to opinions of experienced people, readiness to discard your own biases, honesty in admitting your errors, respect for books and people and honing your skills in asking the right questions and formulating supportable answers.

That's all what was needed to become "Google" Mc Dougall :-)

I would venture to say that any reasonably intelligent person can become a true "academic" researcher in our field that blissfully does not have formal education and curriculum requirements. We are all autodidacts.

On the other hand, absence of any condition stated above would be a fatal flaw, permanently disqualifying a person from becoming a true researcher.

[kronckew]

ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.

the prescription for ignorance is learning; education by teachers with open minds and the ability to accept ideas from others, testing them, and by your own research, self-education and experience. learning is also making mistakes and eventually not making the same ones. you are not ignorant if you have learned as much as you can and keep trying to exceed your limitations, no matter what your IQ. formal education can actually be a hindrance.

the prescription for stupidity is euthanasia; chlorinating the gene pool for the sake of the rest of us and the future. sadly too many of us, mostly politicians, seem incapable of even accepting that much change. they seem to revel in and enjoy their status quo. the occasional one gets a bit of enlightenment and resigns before the stuff hits the fan.

p.s. - there is a cure for all this off topic maudlin pedantry: it's called 'Beer', sadly not available to all. occasionally a good quinta port works well too, as fernando may be able to confirm.

[Jim McDougall]

Ariel, your most kind words are so welcomed, and only surpassed by the eloquence in the way you have expressed them. I hope others will be inspired to follow them as well, as they are so true.
I sincerely thank you.

What is most important is that all of us here have different styles, levels of learning, fields of study and pretty much an infinite spectrum of personalities. All we need is to put them all together and continue to learn together, and the possibilities to advance all our knowledge is endless.

Kronckew, very well said........lets all have a beer!!!
and get back to palouars (or whatever they are) etc. !!!!

You guys are all the best!

[ariel]

Well, boys, if you have a chance to get a bottle of "Two-hearted ale" from Bell's Brewery in Kalamazoo, you will get addicted to the best IPA you will ever taste....

Sorry, just had to spread the good word. All non-Michiganders need to get educated about the best things in life.

Back to the sharpies!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

All in the name of education...

[kronckew]

education, of course. i'm still occasionally researching for a paper on comparative beer tasteology rankings. there are some local craft micro-breweries here. i prefer the stouts and porters now, more flavour.

one of the best beers i recall was a locally brewed heiniken i had at amman airport waiting to change planes. 1st real beer after my first year in saudi. also stopped in munich, had some admittedly better beers there, but...that 1st one was special.

what has this to do with sharp pointies? nothing...everything.

win one glorious golden 'attaboy' if you can guess who said those last two words, where and when.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kronckew

education, of course. i'm still occasionally researching for a paper on comparative beer tasteology rankings. there are some local craft micro-breweries here. i prefer the stouts and porters now, more flavour.

one of the best beers i recall was a locally brewed heiniken i had at amman airport waiting to change planes. 1st real beer after my first year in saudi. also stopped in munich, had some admittedly better beers there, but...that 1st one was special.

what has this to do with sharp pointies? nothing...everything.

win one glorious golden 'attaboy' if you can guess who said those last two words, where and when.

Plato.

[kronckew]

nope, a man playing a well known kurdish military leader in a recent epic.

a further hint: he had just been asked 'what is jerusalem worth?'.

[Rick]

K.O.H.
Saladin, standing before the walls of Jerusalem.
I loved how he clenched his fist when he said 'everything'.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Rick

K.O.H.
Saladin, standing before the walls of Jerusalem.
I loved how he clenched his fist when he said 'everything'.

give the man a seegar! you are awarded one golden attaboy, which when presented at any pub, bar, or tavern may be exchanged for the right to purchase a pint of your favourite tipple at the establishment's normal price. subject to terms and conditions. acceptability may vary. subject to local, state, and national taxes as governed by the applicable laws. no smoking allowed in public places. you must be over the age of 18.

ghassan massoud in a fine depiction of saladin in KOH as he walks away from belial after the surrender.

a favourite movie with realistic costumes and equipment - for hollywoodland at least. they even used riveted mail in the closeups. (cue arguement as to whether or not it was round or wedge rivets ) shame someone shot him in the head from underneath with a white arrow in his moment of glory. seems to survive tho.

[Jim McDougall]

OK ya lot of suds sodden characters!!!
and right Rick, in Knights of Heaven.....excellent !

So back to the pointed things......

Here is a great tulwar which Gav had,believed of northern regions in India, this determined by a number of paluoar characteristics such as striations in the pommel etc .Note the slotted knuckleguard, not only found on a good number of paluoars but on the Afghan military hilt in discussion.

With that recurved gooseneck, swan neck (often I have seen the term 'water bird') feature at the terminal at pommel, it seems Pant attributed tulwars with this feature to Banswara in Rajasthan. However that may of course be equally diffused to many other instances as specific regional classifications are usually speculative at best without exact provenance.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

OK ya lot of suds sodden characters!!!
and right Rick, in Knights of Heaven.....excellent !

So back to the pointed things......

Here is a great tulwar which Gav had,believed of northern regions in India, this determined by a number of paluoar characteristics such as striations in the pommel etc .Note the slotted knuckleguard, not only found on a good number of paluoars but on the Afghan military hilt in discussion.

With that recurved gooseneck, swan neck (often I have seen the term 'water bird') feature at the terminal at pommel, it seems Pant attributed tulwars with this feature to Banswara in Rajasthan. However that may of course be equally diffused to many other instances as specific regional classifications are usually speculative at best without exact provenance.

Salaams Jim, This is a great subject and in viewing the various swan neck types I noted a great variety on both dagger and sword hilts in both Indian and Afghan weapons not surprising from the geographical viewpoint and their close history. Some weapons have elaborate finials but some also seen below have none. Naturally a great number enter the realms of high class bling because of the Jehangir and his association with his own personal designs and those of his many Royal Mughul workshops...in what is almost a fashion statement in Jade and Neophrite etc. Note also the variation where the swan neck can evolve from teardrop or bud through swan neck to serpent like finial. Well noted is the swan neck as seen at #64. above.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

More astounding photos Ibrahiim !! Thank you.

It truly is fascinating looking more at the recurved guard 'necks' and their variation in style especially as occurring on tulwars in India as opposed to the paluoar (while of Afghanistan but in actuality N. India).

In most cases it seems the decorative treatment on tulwars is more inclined to floral theme, and these recurved features resemble a bud (probably lotus). There are of course exceptions, but it seems worth noting.

The Afghan paluoar seems to nearly invariably use a dragon or 'monster' in stylized degree on both the downturned quillon terminals and the recurved neck of the guard.

The use of the dragon symbolically is of course not confined to the Ottoman sphere, however it does seem to be significantly important.
This is well described in "The Silver Dragon and the Golden Fish: An Imperial Ottoman Symbol", David Alexander , Gladius XXIII, 2003, pp.211-268.

This suggests the preponderance of the 'dragon' used by Ottomans, and seemingly favored by Afghans in the decoration of these swords accordingly as a symbol of power. In many, if not most cases, these are of course dramatically stylized.

With the military 'Machin Khana' style hilts, it is intriguing to see the general form of these hilts with recurved neck on guard fashioned into simple machine type guards, slotted as in some more decorative tulwar and paluouar hilts. Along with this we see the extremely austere bayonet style hilt, following the 'strictly business' character of western military arms.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

More astounding photos Ibrahiim !! Thank you.

It truly is fascinating looking more at the recurved guard 'necks' and their variation in style especially as occurring on tulwars in India as opposed to the paluoar (while of Afghanistan but in actuality N. India).

In most cases it seems the decorative treatment on tulwars is more inclined to floral theme, and these recurved features resemble a bud (probably lotus). There are of course exceptions, but it seems worth noting.

The Afghan paluoar seems to nearly invariably use a dragon or 'monster' in stylized degree on both the downturned quillon terminals and the recurved neck of the guard.

The use of the dragon symbolically is of course not confined to the Ottoman sphere, however it does seem to be significantly important.
This is well described in "The Silver Dragon and the Golden Fish: An Imperial Ottoman Symbol", David Alexander , Gladius XXIII, 2003, pp.211-268.

This suggests the preponderance of the 'dragon' used by Ottomans, and seemingly favored by Afghans in the decoration of these swords accordingly as a symbol of power. In many, if not most cases, these are of course dramatically stylized.

With the military 'Machin Khana' style hilts, it is intriguing to see the general form of these hilts with recurved neck on guard fashioned into simple machine type guards, slotted as in some more decorative tulwar and paluouar hilts. Along with this we see the extremely austere bayonet style hilt, following the 'strictly business' character of western military arms.

Thank you for the post Jim; The industrial make of the Afghan weapon certainly ruled out any traditional fashion statement although it can be seen as a reflection in the goosehead style of finial as a tiny vestige of what went before..I completely support the bud...probably as you say a lotus bud ~ and it may be related to the name Tulvar or Pulvar as Pul and Tul mean flower... though it is an outside shot. I actually considered the dish pommel as a floral form and had considered that as indicative of the name...

One system I have held back in joining the flux is the Sri Lankan form where dragons abound but they are probably related...and seen below as examples.

[ariel]

OK, just as an afterthought: re. " Afghani regulation khybers".
By definition, " regulation weapon" is a highly standardized one, manufactured in bulk, according to a design approved by a central authority and ( very often) at the same factory.
In short, a large mass of identical twins.
Here are two allegedly " regulation khybers"

One has two grooves, another has one. One blade has a stamp on the ricasso and is numbered another does not. One has a shield-like languet, another does not.The D-guards are of a different contours.

The conclusion is inescapable: there is nothing " regulation" here. Just a similar idea expressed in different " languages" with different parts including imported blades, with or without governmental stamps at a defined position.

And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-)

[DaveS]

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by DaveS

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

Hello Dave,

You are right... providing that you don't use a hand-held drilling machine fit with a milling cutter, or providing that you use a milling machine with good, not worn, vertical positioning control.