Vasily Vereshchagin "Indian poem"

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Flindt describes there general structure of all Bukharan handles. No argument about kards and bichaks.
I am asking specifically about "shashkas" . All his examples and all I have seen or handled have 5 ( rarely 4, if the grip is narrower than usual).
Can you show an example of a "shashka" with 3 rivets?
I am intrigued.

I'm sorry. Where in the quotation from Torben Flindt which I posted,, you see mention of Kard and Pichok? I specifically placed the piece of text that no one had any doubt as to the correctness of citations Torben Flindt in this fragment writes exclusively about Bukhara shashkas. Or I confuse? In the English word "sword" can mean "knife" ??? My English is bad. And I do not know it.....

[Jens Nordlunde]

In post 59 only part of what Torben wrote about the hilts is shown. Here is it all.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In post 59 only part of what Torben wrote about the hilts is shown. Here is it all.

Thank you, Jens.
Do I understand correctly that the phrase Torben Flindt "3-5 of rivets on the hilts" refers not only to knifes (Kard and Bichok), but also to Bukhara shashkas?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Torben writes about the swords when he mentions the 3-5 rivets. When it comes to the Bukharan daggers he writes: 'The same materials and manner of fitting them are found on Bukharan daggers of the bytshak and karud types.' So here he doesn't give the number of rivets, but my guess is, that had the number of rivets been different on the daggers he would have mentioned it.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Torben writes about the swords when he mentions the 3-5 rivets.

Thank you so much. I am glad that I have correctly understood the article Torben Flindt.

[ariel]

Jens,
This passage in Flindt's article is very confusing, and I read it differently.

According to Flindt, it is the large size of the rivets that is the " Bukharan characteristics"

If so, the upper handle with 3 large rivets ( Afghani pseudo-shashka) must be Bukharan, whereas the two lower ones ( both Bukharan shashkas) with 5 small rivets are not Bukharan at all :-)

My point remains the same: can somebody show an example of a Bukharan "shashka" with 3 rivets? I have yet to see one.

[mahratt]

This passage in Flindt's article is not confusing. It just need to read carefully. Torben Flindt says that Bukhara swords (shashkas) on the handle rivets 3-5. This means that the Bukharan shahshkas on the handle can be from 3 to 5 rivets. Yes, in most cases on the hilt of Bukhara 5 rivets (thanks for your example). Sometimes there are 4 rivets (I showed it). And there Bukhara shashkas with 3 rivets on the handle.This writes Torben Flindt and Vereshchagin, who painted them in the 19th century..

I trust Torben Flindt, who studied Bukhara checkers and Vereshchagin, who painted them in the 19th century.

But surely you can have your opinion.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes you are right Ariel, Torben mentioned the big rivets, and if he did so, that is what he meant.
I knew Torben very well years ago, and he was very presice when he was writing, so when he wrote 'big rivets' he ment that.
When Torben started to collect Bukhara weapons, he went out there to study the weapons and the art, so I suppose that he would have known about the big rivets, or he would not have mentioned them.
For some reason or other we newer discussed the Bukhara weapons, but only the Indian ones.

[mahratt]

And many Bukharian checkers with 5 rivets on the handle really large rivets, as he wrote Torben Flindt.

[mahratt]

But, as we have seen, we met and small rivets.

But it does not say that Torben Flindt made a mistake in his article.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mahratt

. And there Bukhara shashkas with 3 rivets on the handle.This writes Torben Flindt and Vereshchagin, who painted them in the 19th century

Sorry, but this is a circular argument: " Vereshchagin's depiction of a Bukharan shashka with 3 rivets is historically correct because Vereshchagin painted a Bukharan shashka with 3 rivets"


And thank you for bringing yet more examples of Bukharan shashkas, all with 5 rivets.

Any examples of a 3-riveted one in your collection of images?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Sorry, but this is a circular argument: " Vereshchagin's depiction of a Bukharan shashka with 3 rivets is historically correct because Vereshchagin painted a Bukharan shashka with 3 rivets"

And thank you for bringing yet more examples of Bukharan shashkas, all with 5 rivets.

I am glad to help you. I put the picture with 5 rivets, because:
1) are the most widespread Bukhara shashkas
2) on these drafts rivets - large, such as described by Torben Flindt.

There is no lasting circle. There is an example in the picture Vereshchagin, confirming the words Torben Flindt.
Torben Flindt says that on the handles of Bukhara shashkas from 3 to 5 rivets. Do you think that Torben Flindt made a mistake? I am very interested to hear your opinion on this issue.

Of course, I know that you are very good expert and collector. But in this matter trust more Torben Flindt. I'm sorry for this insolence.

Originally Posted by ariel

Any examples of a 3-riveted one in your collection of images?

Unfortunately, in my collection of Bukhara Shashkas with 3 rivets not. Like you, for 2 of my Bukhara shashkas 5 rivets on the handle (probably the most common option).
But thank you very much Artzi Yarom for his "bank" (reserve) the image^

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3912

Now I hope you are happy? Or will you continue to not believe Torben Flindt?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Jens,
This passage in Flindt's article is very confusing, and I read it differently.

According to Flindt, it is the large size of the rivets that is the " Bukharan characteristics"

If so, the upper handle with 3 large rivets ( Afghani pseudo-shashka) must be Bukharan, whereas the two lower ones ( both Bukharan shashkas) with 5 small rivets are not Bukharan at all :-)

My point remains the same: can somebody show an example of a Bukharan "shashka" with 3 rivets? I have yet to see one.

I do not see anything "confusing" about this particular passage.

When wood or horn were used, the gripshells were held together by THREE TO FIVE large iron rivets whose size may be regarded as a Bukharan characteristic.

The question is not whether anyone has a picture of a Bukharan three rivet shashka/sword, the question is....can a Bukharan shashka have small iron rivets. Was Flindt naming the only chatacteristics or just some of several possible Bukharan styles of riveting. Can the Bukharan shashka/sword be identified by shape/style alone or are large rivets the only indicator that a shashka/sword is Bukharan.

A Very fine example of a sword from Uzbekistan of typical Bukharan style. The slightly curved 29 inches long blade is forged of very fine wootz steel of the ladder pattern. The grips of rhino horn, cut axially (Very specific to Bukharan made blade hilts) and of almost black age patina, are in the general shape of that of a Pesh-Kabz dagger, also common in the central Asian countries. The hilt bolster is silver with niello decoration and the scabbard fittings are silver covered with a dense mosaic of small Turquoise stones, also in a typical decorative style of Bukhara.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Now I hope you are happy? Or will you continue to not believe Torben Flindt?

This is just like the one you yourself rejected on the Russian forum because the handle is a replacement.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

This is just like the one you yourself rejected on the Russian forum because the handle is a replacement.

1) 1) You have put a photo of the Afghan shashka. What for?

2) Artzi Yarom writes nothing about replacing the handle of the shashka. You suspect that it introduces all the confusion?

"This rare shashqa style saber is coming from Central Asia or Afghanistan. Blade 29 1/2 inches, slightly up rising, hollow ground cross section inlaid with gold decoration on both faces and on the spine. Wood grips and brass bolster. Total length 35 inches. Later wood scabbard with leather cover and chased brass grip. Very Good condition. Minor wood chips on the handle and later solder repairs on the bolsters. The attribution to Central Asia and /or Afghanistan is derived from the shape of the handle, very similar to Karud / Pesh Kabz daggers from the same area. A very rare saber".

3) If you did not accept my example, here's another example:

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

This is just like the one you yourself rejected on the Russian forum because the handle is a replacement.

By the way, it seems to me that it is better to put not only one photo where you can see the details only under a microscope. If you just put here more photo, it would be clear that in Bukhara, this shashka is not relevant.

[ariel]

Re: shashka with agate handle.
Flindt specifically states the rivets on wooden and horn handles. Agate doesn't seem to relate here.

[Gavin Nugent]

Trying to work past the school yard antics here are some facts about the rivets and hilt materials.

My sabre hilt from my gallery has already been presented above, 5 large rivets.

My turquoise pichoq set with sheaths and baldric, 2 small rivets.

The named and dated pair of pichoq shown in my gallery that interlock are two small rivets.

The large Rhino hilt Karud has 3 small rivets.

Another pichoq has five small rivets which is a lot for such a small knife.

One Mahratt now has, I think 4 or 5 small rivets from memory.

I've personally seen turquoise and silver, timber, ivory, both walrus and Elephant, jade or agate, and various horn types too.

It all comes down to the makers I am sure...for timber sabre grip slabs I only recall large rivet types, for other materials smaller iron pins...such large
rivets would look very out of place on a full silver and turquoise hilt...of those I have had, it seems timber had more rivets...it might have something to do with securing the burl like timber...to be sure to be sure, or perhaps an unknown thought process behind that aspect?

Ariel, the three rivet shashka type hilt you have presented with the engraved bolster is in my opinion Afghanistan, Herat to Kabul, influenced from the Central Asian regions further north.

Gavin

[ariel]

Gavin,
Of course the 3-riveted handle belongs to the Afghani pseudoshashka.
I showed it only for the size of the rivets, to compare with 5 small rivets on the Bukharan examples. I thought I made it clear. If not, I am sorry. Hope it is clear now.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Re: shashka with agate handle.
Flindt specifically states the rivets on wooden and horn handles. Agate doesn't seem to relate here.

Now back to Bukhara shashka. Maybe you do not know that there Bukhara shashkas with a handle made of precious stone. Such shashka have, for example, in the collection of Henry Moser.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Trying to work past the school yard antics here are some facts about the rivets and hilt materials.

My sabre hilt from my gallery has already been presented above, 5 large rivets.

My turquoise pichoq set with sheaths and baldric, 2 small rivets.

The named and dated pair of pichoq shown in my gallery that interlock are two small rivets.

The large Rhino hilt Karud has 3 small rivets.

Another pichoq has five small rivets which is a lot for such a small knife.

One Mahratt now has, I think 4 or 5 small rivets from memory.

I've personally seen turquoise and silver, timber, ivory, both walrus and Elephant, jade or agate, and various horn types too.

It all comes down to the makers I am sure...for timber sabre grip slabs I only recall large rivet types, for other materials smaller iron pins...such large
rivets would look very out of place on a full silver and turquoise hilt...of those I have had, it seems timber had more rivets...it might have something to do with securing the burl like timber...to be sure to be sure, or perhaps an unknown thought process behind that aspect?

Ariel, the three rivet shashka type hilt you have presented with the engraved bolster is in my opinion Afghanistan, Herat to Kabul, influenced from the Central Asian regions further north.

Gavin

Gavin, my friend, you are saying the right thing. You and I have seen many different examples, because you and I specifically interested in Central Asia.

[Battara]

Gentlemen, I have redacted some of what I have seen due to the fact that THEY DO NOT BELONG HERE!

Both you, Ariel and Mahratt, been warned privately (as well as other measures). This is a good thread and I have learned from the information you folks have provided. Please keep on topic. Personal attacks and slander on ANYONE will not be tolerated here. I do not want to close this thread...........

[mahratt]

I want to show Bukhara shashkas from Hermitage and the Museum of artillery in St. Petersburg . Incidentally, the term "Bukhara shashka" unites the shashkas of Bukhara, Khiva and Kokand.

[carlitobrigante]

oh my! that 2nd sword from your post immediately above mine is one of the most gorgeous looking swords i have ever seen.

What is the scabbard made of, and in which museum does this beauty reside?

Thank you for keeping this thread civil so it can continue. Although not my area of collecting it has been fascinating seeing the paintings and some of the examples posted.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

oh my! that 2nd sword from your post immediately above mine is one of the most gorgeous looking swords i have ever seen.

What is the scabbard made of, and in which museum does this beauty reside?

Thank you for keeping this thread civil so it can continue. Although not my area of collecting it has been fascinating seeing the paintings and some of the examples posted.

Many thanks. I am glad that you like!
I also really like the first and second shashkas These shashkas were presented to the Tsar of Russia. These shashkas presented Khan of Kokand.

Now they are kept in the Hermitage in Russia

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

oh my!

What is the scabbard made of

Oh my indeed!

Having a pair of hilts in the same manner, this is what I suspect at face value.

I suspect a timber inner core with a possible "Moroccan" leather inner throat area for the blade.
The outer is dressed with a silver, almost entirely like a honey comb or reptile scale pattern, but specifically a random pattern with each hole is the final appearance. Again, I suspect as I only see the final product in hand, but small turquoise and garnet stones are resin inset in to each tiny hole, once cured, ground, polished and shaped with a wheel.
These hilt types are mostly considered as political gifts to other rulers and men of standing as only the Amir had the means for such time, expense and beauty.

Gavin

[Jim McDougall]

Indeed it is great to see this discourse return to the now apparent diversion to this fascinating study of Bukharen and Afghan swords, which in itself is probably one of the most esoteric areas of the edged weapons on Central Asia.
It is almost unfortunate that this particular discussion has begun under the title of the original post which pertains to the distinguished Russian artist Vasily Vereshchagin, as these swords certainly deserve their own titled thread to bring in broader interest in their study.

Meanwhile, I am very grateful for all of the fantastic pictures of these swords and the most interesting attention to their features and details.
I would have to agree however, that this curious debate over the number of rivets or their size is to me fully specious. While there are seemingly some preponderances such as five rivets placed on the Bukharen sabres as appeared in Mr. Flindt's venerable article, he did note potential variances.

As far as I can imagine, the development and production of these types of saber (Bukharen) and the cleft pommel shashka like versions attributed to Afghanistan and Uzbekistan are so predisposed to cross diffusion that most finite attribution is unlikely, if not nearly impossible.

As I have mentioned many times, as Mr. Flindt once said to me, weapons have NO geographic boundaries.
This was noted in what became a rather inconclusive struggle to classify one of these 'shashkas' as either Uzbek or Afghan about 18 years ago.
While it I was once told that the Bukharen sabre had of course nothing to do with the shashka, it remains seemingly likely that the profound Russian presence in these regions in the times of the "Great Game" (c. 1813-1907) certainly may have influenced these Uzbek and Afghan sabres with the distinct cleft pommels.

The Khanate of Bukhara was of course situated in Uzbekistan in the 18th century, and Uzbekistan included a notable part of Northern Afghanistan until the mid 19th century. As most of these sword forms evolved in these particular times amidst all of this geopolitical turmoil, then it seems almost futile to assign a distinct classification and pattern of features responsibly to any of them unless using other mitigating factors in their decoration etc.

What remains undisputed regardless, is that these 'Central Asian' sabres are some of the most intriguing, beautiful and exciting swords in the spectrum of the sabre.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This was noted in what became a rather inconclusive struggle to classify one of these 'shashkas' as either Uzbek or Afghan about 18 years ago.

Jim, while there may not be much in the way of new information since then there are a lot more images available.

[Battara]

W W!

I never heard of Bukharen shashqas until this thread! And what beautiful examples!

Amazing (putting eyes back in their sockets)

[mahratt]

Bukhara shashkas from Russian museums.