ETHIOPIAN, ANYONE? - Page 3

Tim Simmons · 11th October 2006, 06:33 PM

Sorry

roanoa · 15th October 2006, 07:23 PM

Hi guys. Trying to keep this thread going. There's so much stuff. So, here are three Ethiopian daggers with "fancy" scabbards. They are actually no scabbards at all... Two daggers have their original leather scabbards; one (Hi, Derek) does not. All three daggers have been inserted into the metal sheaths that originally decorated the terminal portion of SWORD scabbards. I have found another dagger like these three. So I have actually documented this practise in four cases. It is unclear, at least to me, how sword furniture was used like this. Two theories: 1) the daggers were produced in this configurations by scabbard makers who had a surplus of these sheaths; 2) they were made using broken swords picked up as throphies on a battlefield. Any other guesses?

Tim Simmons · 15th October 2006, 09:05 PM

Abyssinia a fascinating area. The array of poorly documented weapons. From your previous thread we saw those lovely examples from the south with a sickle knife influence, then in this thread the European influence. Where does the eastern influence begin from Somalia and the Arabian peninsular? possibly with these knives. Is the shotel solely Abyssinian? I know we have seen an ebay purchase post here by Ariel, one of those curved sabers having the tangent at the scabbard tip with an eared grip. Are there Kaskara with Abyssinian marks? not including the straight European blades. lots of questions.

roanoa · 15th October 2006, 10:36 PM

Hi, Tim. Yes, the diversity of weapons found in Abyssinia is amazing. Local blades, European blades, Ind-persian and Arabian blades. LOTS of Kaskara in Abyssinia, either used as such (Ethiopia shares a very long border with Sudan and there is lots of ethnical overlapping) or re-hilted to traditional Ethiopian SEIFs. The opposite is also true. I posted a Kaskara that I believe to be Eritrean and asked for help with the translation, which is in Arabic, but no luck so far (under KASKARA NEEDS TRANLATOR). I will keep on posting "stuff" for your enjoyment. Ron

Bill M · 16th October 2006, 09:10 AM

Ron,

Here is my shotel. Have a neat scabbard also, not in pictures.

I have read that the long curved blade was for getting around an opponent's shield. Guess that would have been a surprise!

I think that the handle is rhino horn -- no wait, it is cow horn....er..Rhino? cow! gotta be rhino. have a couple of Uzo drinks and it could have come from an authentic 1952 Studebaker Commander

Comments, please, i would like to know more about these interesting swords and the people who made and used them.

roanoa · 16th October 2006, 08:42 PM

Hi Bill. EXCELLENT example of shotel. Nice curve. Hilt: COW. Everybody says that the shotel is curved so that one could go around the enemy's shield. Personally, I believe it's one of those myths that have been perpetuated and become gospel. First: not all shotels are curved enough to do that job. Second: I have several shotels and I have tried to do that only to find out that you really lack the power to strike. So, I believe it's a nice theory and I can see how people would go for it. I, for one, do not.

Bill M · 16th October 2006, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

Hi Bill. EXCELLENT example of shotel. Nice curve. Hilt: COW. Everybody says that the shotel is curved so that one could go around the enemy's shield. Personally, I believe it's one of those myths that have been perpetuated and become gospel. First: not all shotels are curved enough to do that job. Second: I have several shotels and I have tried to do that only to find out that you really lack the power to strike. So, I believe it's a nice theory and I can see how people would go for it. I, for one, do not.

Ron,

Thanks. I have always wondered about that "going around the shield" concept. The shotel seems to be an unwieldy sword with very strange balance. Niether a thrusting nor a slashing weapon. Any ideas about how it was used?

COW is fine with me. It is solid and has a nice color and seems well put together.

roanoa · 17th October 2006, 01:18 AM

Hi. The shotel is truly ans Abyssinian sword. It is designed to strike with the tip and it has enough force to "stab" through a shield. I believe it is native of the Tigray region. There even was a village in Eritrea called "shotel'". I found the photo of a painting about the battle of Adwa (1896). It is a huge painting that is VERY accurate in details of weapons used by the Abyssinians and the Italians. I cropped this portion. It shows how the shotel was used!!

roanoa · 22nd October 2006, 04:52 AM

Hi guys. Here something for you, Abyssinian swords lovers!! This is a selection of traditional design hilts using different materials. They are all in scale. A) Wood; B) Bakelite; C) Plastic; D) German silver; E) 3 piece Buffalo horn; F) 1 piece Rhino horn; G) 2 piece Rhino horn with joining silver band.
Brass and Ivory were also used. Reports of SOLID Gold leave me skeptical because of the weight; gold plated metal or hollow cast gold seem more likely. Please, note that when Buffalo horn was used, BY NECESSITY, construction was ALWAYS of two or three pieces; I have one with FOUR pieces, but that's very unusual. Also, when Buffalo horn was used, the top cross piece was quite thin. When Rhino horn was used, the top piece usually extended to, and beyond, half of the total length of the grip. Comments?

Flavio · 22nd October 2006, 10:46 AM

Hi Roano, please write a reference book on Ethiopian weapons!!!!!

Flavio

Jeff D · 22nd October 2006, 05:21 PM

Hi Ron,

Just a note to say i really appreciate what you are doing here. Just wish I could contribute.

All the Best
Jeff

P.S. Can I preorder your book

roanoa · 27th October 2006, 07:06 AM

This time I want to share with you four of my best pieces. Best because they are complete with thier decorated scabbards. Scabbards are usually found in terrible shape, when they are not missing altogether. Ethiopian scabbards for shotels, gurades and seifs were made of tough raw hide covered with very thin leather, usually red in color, or velvet. The leather was poorly tanned and did not last very long. It became brittle and simply fell apart. Velvet had a better chance of survival.... Some scabbards were decorated with furniture in brass or silver. As pointed before in this thread, some of these furnitures were used as knives scabbards. The seif in the picture has a leather covered scabbard. The 3 gurades have velvet covered scabbards. If you have an Ethiopian sword with decorated scabbard, PLEASE post it.

Bill M · 27th October 2006, 11:50 AM

WOW!

have nothing like this!

I would like to contribute and keep this thread bumped up, but am running out of Ethiopian weapons. The culture fascinates me.

Is there enough interest in creating a sub-forum on Ethiopian and other North African weapons and artifacts?

I nominate Ron to moderate it! Maybe Tim and Freddy also?

derek · 2nd November 2006, 02:13 AM

Someone, a LONG time ago, posted a comment about an old piece of film that showed two Abyssinian warriors sparring with shotels. It was described as a lot of jumping and attempting to pierce the opponent --- over the shield.

Jim McD, was it you that posted that comment? Did you actually see that film?

-d

roanoa · 2nd November 2006, 07:01 PM

I sure would like to see that clip. In any case, my point is that, since shotels vary so much in curvature, I doubt that most of them could do any damage when used that way.

Bill M · 2nd November 2006, 11:07 PM

Maybe they were used as giant ice picks or sugar hammers?

derek · 3rd November 2006, 05:26 AM

I use mine as a back scratcher. Works great.

roanoa · 8th November 2006, 02:38 AM

Here's something different. The sword is Ethiopian, as per Menelik's portrait, Lion of Judah, Amharic writing, the works, (thanks, Gennady), SO what the heck is this supposed to be???? The blade is very nice and clean, hetched and plated. I believe it is British. Don't ask me why; just a feeling. On one side, it has this scene, instead of the usual quotation from the Bible in Ge'ez. What do you see??? I see two scenarios: 1) some Amhara horsemen involved in a punishing party against an unruly tribe. 2) Arabic slavetraders raiding a village. I LOVE this puzzle. I did not know this was there when I bought the sword.... Have any of you guys seen anything like this?

derek · 9th November 2006, 10:09 PM

Roano,

That is fantastic. Like the shotels made in Europe, this was certainly conceptualized locally and executed in Europe. I would guess something like this would be to commemorate an event. It's too deliberate and would have been even more expensive to produce than the usual imported blades. Those don't look like Italians, so what battle would it be?

-d

Luc LEFEBVRE · 9th November 2006, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

The the weapons and the religious artifacts are really neat. I have some swords with good german blades. One with a hilt that may be translucent rhino horn. Menelik period.

They even claim to have the Ark of the Covenant somewhere.

I really like the prayer scrolls / talismans.

Here is an Etiopean curiosity. About 4 inches long. Some kind of silver, probably low grade.

Any guesses? If you already know for sure, please hold off posting the answer. I think it would be fun to hear some guesses.

I have a similar, funny jewelry.
Luc

roanoa · 8th January 2007, 01:17 AM

Well, guys, it's been a while. Happy 2007 to all. In an attempt to revitalize this thread I am posting a couple of pictures and thoughts about rhino horn hilts used in Ethiopian swords. Having closely observed several dozens, here's my conclusion. The "core" of Rhino horn is dark gray, almost charcoal black. The "dark" part will of course vary in diameter depending on the size of the horn. From the "core" the horn will get lighter in colour and turn into an amber-yellow shade. My first picture clearly illustrates what I mean. So where do the reddish/brown hilts come from? The gorgeous hilt in the second and third pictures gives the answer. The hilt had been dyed... As one can see from the breakage, the inside of the horn is still amber yellow and the surface shows an minimal amount of penetration of the dye. I hope this gives an answer to those who believe that rhino horn comes in different colours.... Cheers.

Bill M · 8th January 2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

Well, guys, it's been a while. Happy 2007 to all. In an attempt to revitalize this thread I am posting a couple of pictures and thoughts about rhino horn hilts used in Ethiopian swords. Having closely observed several dozens, here's my conclusion. The "core" of Rhino horn is dark gray, almost charcoal black. The "dark" part will of course vary in diameter depending on the size of the horn. From the "core" the horn will get lighter in colour and turn into an amber-yellow shade. My first picture clearly illustrates what I mean. So where do the reddish/brown hilts come from? The gorgeous hilt in the second and third pictures gives the answer. The hilt had been dyed... As one can see from the breakage, the inside of the horn is still amber yellow and the surface shows an minimal amount of penetration of the dye. I hope this gives an answer to those who believe that rhino horn comes in different colours.... Cheers.

Hi Ron,

So you are saying that rhino horn is dyed dark, but is normally amber yellow?

I have an article quoted from "Science Daily" (November 2006) that addresses the dark places at the center.

The horns of most animals have a bony core covered by a thin sheath of keratin, the same substance as hair and nails. Rhino horns are unique, however, because they are composed entirely of keratin. Scientists had been puzzled by the difference, but the Ohio University study now has revealed an interesting clue: dark patches running through the center of the horns.

The team examined the heads of rhinos that died of natural causes and were donated by The Wilds in Cumberland, Ohio, and the Phoenix Zoo. Researchers conducted CT scans on the horns at O’Bleness Memorial Hospital in Athens and found dense mineral deposits made of calcium and melanin in the middle.

The calcium deposits make the horn core harder and stronger, and the melanin protects the core from breakdown by the sun’s UV rays, the scientists report. The softer outer portion of the horn weakens with sun exposure and is worn into its distinctive shape through horn clashing and by being rubbed on the ground and vegetation. The structure of the rhino horns is similar to a pencil’s tough lead core and weaker wood periphery, which allows the horns to be honed to a sharp point.

The study also ends speculation that the horn was simply a clump of modified hair.

“The horns most closely resemble the structure of horses’ hoofs, turtle beaks and cockatoo bills. This might be related to the strength of these materials, although more research is needed in this area,” said Tobin Hieronymus, a doctoral student in biological sciences and lead author on the study.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1106144951.htm

spiral · 8th January 2007, 06:57 PM

Rhino horn occurs naturaly in many colours, But sure its also easy to dye.

Spiral

roanoa · 9th January 2007, 03:20 AM

Hi, Bill. What I am saying is that "core" (I call it core for lack of a better term) is dark gray. It is also more compact and much harder that the rest of the horn that tend to turn amber/yellow and is certainly softer. It appears to be dusty gray in nature but polishes out to the above mentioned colour.
Hi, Spiral. You are telling me something new. I have CLOSELY examined well in excess of 60 sword. Some are more "yellow" that others. However, in all cases of reddish/brown handles, I can assure you that the horn had been dyed. Are there some naturally red/brown horns? I really don't know. I haven't seen any so far. So, please, tell me which other natural colours are there. I can also say that the horn, being made up of organic matter, is subject to deterioration and decay with noticible changes in its apperance. By the way, you guys won't probably like this (.....) but I have started treating my Ethiopian swords' handles with lanolin......

spiral · 9th January 2007, 09:32 PM

Sure Roanna it was a helpfull post of yours a year or so back that got me into researching Rhino horn in depth. But you didnt answear my request for further info in it so i took my own steps to find out more. {as I do with many subjects.}.

I have great respect for your hands on expierience. You have examined 5x as much rhino horn as I.

Some rhino horn can be green I have a Georgian riding crop that the head of it is translucent amber ,then greeny brown with the centre core from close to the rhinos skin alternating creamy & black. with the shaft very green & tiny cream flecks.

There are 5 types of rhino in the world, 3 of them dont live in africa I think? I dont know if that can account for some variations?

I find the Pachyderm group who publish biyearly has some material in thier past works I am sure you would find fascinating.

You can download them here.

http://www.iucn.org/themes/ssc/sgs/afesg/pachy/

I recomend volumes 30 & 34 in particular, which have many articles about rhino horn, jambiyas & the rhino horn trade.

One of my favorite referance works is "the art of rhinocerous horn carving in china" by Jan chapman who was allowed to examine siezed rhino horns in thier naturel state plus many of the words museams collection of rhino horn art.

She does agrre with you that red brown means fake or dyed rhino horn as I recall.

But the book which has some fantastic pictures in tit shows that the dark core can be present, as a core, in randoms areas or inded the whole horn can be grey black. Its not always a central core.

The book also illustrates the many colour tones present.

Apparently The yemani & Saudi arabs rate Rhino horn handles by colour, grain & of course translucency.

The yellow translucent bieng the most expensive & highly prized & indeed my Jambiya with such a handle glows like a bulb in bright sunlight, so i can see its attraction.

Apparently in yemen sesame oil is used to restore old handles, but lanolin sounds good to me.

ive used baby oil but will experiment with sessame & lanolin in futre.

Spiral

roanoa · 9th January 2007, 09:59 PM

Spiral. This is really great. You confirm some of my observations and give new info at the same time. I have never seen a green (or is it "greenish"?) horn. Would like to examine one, though. You are right when you say that the "dark core" does not have a precise position. I have noticed that too. Keep in touch. Black, White, Indian and Javanese. Who's the fifth? I guess I could google it...

spiral · 9th January 2007, 10:09 PM

thanks Roanoa, glad it was of help to you.

Rhino horn is fascinating. To me & others who have seen the crop the reaction is always that its green or in some light, grey green with light flecks in the grain.

the 5th rhino type is the Sumatran, it has 2 horns but those left today the horn is only vistigal. I guess allthoughts with larger horns have been hunted out over the years so have been removed from the breeding stock.

take care ,
spiral

11th October 2006, 06:33 PM	#61
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Throwing knife for French and Belgian fans. Sorry Last edited by Tim Simmons; 11th October 2006 at 06:41 PM. Reason: wrong thread

15th October 2006, 07:23 PM	#62
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Hi guys. Trying to keep this thread going. There's so much stuff. So, here are three Ethiopian daggers with "fancy" scabbards. They are actually no scabbards at all... Two daggers have their original leather scabbards; one (Hi, Derek) does not. All three daggers have been inserted into the metal sheaths that originally decorated the terminal portion of SWORD scabbards. I have found another dagger like these three. So I have actually documented this practise in four cases. It is unclear, at least to me, how sword furniture was used like this. Two theories: 1) the daggers were produced in this configurations by scabbard makers who had a surplus of these sheaths; 2) they were made using broken swords picked up as throphies on a battlefield. Any other guesses? Attached Images

16th October 2006, 09:10 AM	#65
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Ron, Here is my shotel. Have a neat scabbard also, not in pictures. I have read that the long curved blade was for getting around an opponent's shield. Guess that would have been a surprise! I think that the handle is rhino horn -- no wait, it is cow horn....er..Rhino? cow! gotta be rhino. have a couple of Uzo drinks and it could have come from an *authentic* 1952 Studebaker Commander Comments, please, i would like to know more about these interesting swords and the people who made and used them. Attached Images

17th October 2006, 01:18 AM	#68
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Hi. The shotel is truly ans Abyssinian sword. It is designed to strike with the tip and it has enough force to "stab" through a shield. I believe it is native of the Tigray region. There even was a village in Eritrea called "shotel'". I found the photo of a painting about the battle of Adwa (1896). It is a huge painting that is VERY accurate in details of weapons used by the Abyssinians and the Italians. I cropped this portion. It shows how the shotel was used!! Attached Images

22nd October 2006, 04:52 AM	#69
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Hi guys. Here something for you, Abyssinian swords lovers!! This is a selection of traditional design hilts using different materials. They are all in scale. A) Wood; B) Bakelite; C) Plastic; D) German silver; E) 3 piece Buffalo horn; F) 1 piece Rhino horn; G) 2 piece Rhino horn with joining silver band. Brass and Ivory were also used. Reports of SOLID Gold leave me skeptical because of the weight; gold plated metal or hollow cast gold seem more likely. Please, note that when Buffalo horn was used, BY NECESSITY, construction was ALWAYS of two or three pieces; I have one with FOUR pieces, but that's very unusual. Also, when Buffalo horn was used, the top cross piece was quite thin. When Rhino horn was used, the top piece usually extended to, and beyond, half of the total length of the grip. Comments? Attached Images

15th October 2006, 09:05 PM	#63
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Abyssinia a fascinating area. The array of poorly documented weapons. From your previous thread we saw those lovely examples from the south with a sickle knife influence, then in this thread the European influence. Where does the eastern influence begin from Somalia and the Arabian peninsular? possibly with these knives. Is the shotel solely Abyssinian? I know we have seen an ebay purchase post here by Ariel, one of those curved sabers having the tangent at the scabbard tip with an eared grip. Are there Kaskara with Abyssinian marks? not including the straight European blades. lots of questions.

15th October 2006, 10:36 PM	#64
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Hi, Tim. Yes, the diversity of weapons found in Abyssinia is amazing. Local blades, European blades, Ind-persian and Arabian blades. LOTS of Kaskara in Abyssinia, either used as such (Ethiopia shares a very long border with Sudan and there is lots of ethnical overlapping) or re-hilted to traditional Ethiopian SEIFs. The opposite is also true. I posted a Kaskara that I believe to be Eritrean and asked for help with the translation, which is in Arabic, but no luck so far (under KASKARA NEEDS TRANLATOR). I will keep on posting "stuff" for your enjoyment. Ron

16th October 2006, 08:42 PM	#66
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Hi Bill. EXCELLENT example of shotel. Nice curve. Hilt: COW. Everybody says that the shotel is curved so that one could go around the enemy's shield. Personally, I believe it's one of those myths that have been perpetuated and become gospel. First: not all shotels are curved enough to do that job. Second: I have several shotels and I have tried to do that only to find out that you really lack the power to strike. So, I believe it's a nice theory and I can see how people would go for it. I, for one, do not.

22nd October 2006, 10:46 AM	#70
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Roano, please write a reference book on Ethiopian weapons!!!!! Flavio

22nd October 2006, 05:21 PM	#71
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Ron, Just a note to say i really appreciate what you are doing here. Just wish I could contribute. All the Best Jeff P.S. Can I preorder your book

27th October 2006, 07:06 AM	#72
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	This time I want to share with you four of my best pieces. Best because they are complete with thier decorated scabbards. Scabbards are usually found in terrible shape, when they are not missing altogether. Ethiopian scabbards for shotels, gurades and seifs were made of tough raw hide covered with very thin leather, usually red in color, or velvet. The leather was poorly tanned and did not last very long. It became brittle and simply fell apart. Velvet had a better chance of survival.... Some scabbards were decorated with furniture in brass or silver. As pointed before in this thread, some of these furnitures were used as knives scabbards. The seif in the picture has a leather covered scabbard. The 3 gurades have velvet covered scabbards. If you have an Ethiopian sword with decorated scabbard, PLEASE post it. Attached Images

27th October 2006, 11:50 AM	#73
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	WOW! have nothing like this! I would like to contribute and keep this thread bumped up, but am running out of Ethiopian weapons. The culture fascinates me. Is there enough interest in creating a sub-forum on Ethiopian and other North African weapons and artifacts? I nominate Ron to moderate it! Maybe Tim and Freddy also?

2nd November 2006, 02:13 AM	#74
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	How shotels were used Someone, a LONG time ago, posted a comment about an old piece of film that showed two Abyssinian warriors sparring with shotels. It was described as a lot of jumping and attempting to pierce the opponent --- over the shield. Jim McD, was it you that posted that comment? Did you actually see that film? -d

2nd November 2006, 07:01 PM	#75
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	I sure would like to see that clip. In any case, my point is that, since shotels vary so much in curvature, I doubt that most of them could do any damage when used that way.

2nd November 2006, 11:07 PM	#76
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Maybe they were used as giant ice picks or sugar hammers?

3rd November 2006, 05:26 AM	#77
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	I use mine as a back scratcher. Works great.

8th November 2006, 02:38 AM	#78
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Here's something different. The sword is Ethiopian, as per Menelik's portrait, Lion of Judah, Amharic writing, the works, (thanks, Gennady), SO what the heck is this supposed to be???? The blade is very nice and clean, hetched and plated. I believe it is British. Don't ask me why; just a feeling. On one side, it has this scene, instead of the usual quotation from the Bible in Ge'ez. What do you see??? I see two scenarios: 1) some Amhara horsemen involved in a punishing party against an unruly tribe. 2) Arabic slavetraders raiding a village. I LOVE this puzzle. I did not know this was there when I bought the sword.... Have any of you guys seen anything like this? Attached Images

9th November 2006, 10:09 PM	#79
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Roano, That is fantastic. Like the shotels made in Europe, this was certainly conceptualized locally and executed in Europe. I would guess something like this would be to commemorate an event. It's too deliberate and would have been even more expensive to produce than the usual imported blades. Those don't look like Italians, so what battle would it be? -d

8th January 2007, 01:17 AM	#81
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	rhino horn colour Well, guys, it's been a while. Happy 2007 to all. In an attempt to revitalize this thread I am posting a couple of pictures and thoughts about rhino horn hilts used in Ethiopian swords. Having closely observed several dozens, here's my conclusion. The "core" of Rhino horn is dark gray, almost charcoal black. The "dark" part will of course vary in diameter depending on the size of the horn. From the "core" the horn will get lighter in colour and turn into an amber-yellow shade. My first picture clearly illustrates what I mean. So where do the reddish/brown hilts come from? The gorgeous hilt in the second and third pictures gives the answer. The hilt had been dyed... As one can see from the breakage, the inside of the horn is still amber yellow and the surface shows an minimal amount of penetration of the dye. I hope this gives an answer to those who believe that rhino horn comes in different colours.... Cheers. Attached Images

8th January 2007, 06:57 PM	#83
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Rhino horn occurs naturaly in many colours, But sure its also easy to dye. Spiral

9th January 2007, 03:20 AM	#84
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Hi, Bill. What I am saying is that "core" (I call it core for lack of a better term) is dark gray. It is also more compact and much harder that the rest of the horn that tend to turn amber/yellow and is certainly softer. It appears to be dusty gray in nature but polishes out to the above mentioned colour. Hi, Spiral. You are telling me something new. I have CLOSELY examined well in excess of 60 sword. Some are more "yellow" that others. However, in all cases of reddish/brown handles, I can assure you that the horn had been dyed. Are there some naturally red/brown horns? I really don't know. I haven't seen any so far. So, please, tell me which other natural colours are there. I can also say that the horn, being made up of organic matter, is subject to deterioration and decay with noticible changes in its apperance. By the way, you guys won't probably like this (.....) but I have started treating my Ethiopian swords' handles with lanolin......

9th January 2007, 09:32 PM	#85
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Sure Roanna it was a helpfull post of yours a year or so back that got me into researching Rhino horn in depth. But you didnt answear my request for further info in it so i took my own steps to find out more. {as I do with many subjects.}. I have great respect for your hands on expierience. You have examined 5x as much rhino horn as I. Some rhino horn can be green I have a Georgian riding crop that the head of it is translucent amber ,then greeny brown with the centre core from close to the rhinos skin alternating creamy & black. with the shaft very green & tiny cream flecks. There are 5 types of rhino in the world, 3 of them dont live in africa I think? I dont know if that can account for some variations? I find the Pachyderm group who publish biyearly has some material in thier past works I am sure you would find fascinating. You can download them here. http://www.iucn.org/themes/ssc/sgs/afesg/pachy/ I recomend volumes 30 & 34 in particular, which have many articles about rhino horn, jambiyas & the rhino horn trade. One of my favorite referance works is "the art of rhinocerous horn carving in china" by Jan chapman who was allowed to examine siezed rhino horns in thier naturel state plus many of the words museams collection of rhino horn art. She does agrre with you that red brown means fake or dyed rhino horn as I recall. But the book which has some fantastic pictures in tit shows that the dark core can be present, as a core, in randoms areas or inded the whole horn can be grey black. Its not always a central core. The book also illustrates the many colour tones present. Apparently The yemani & Saudi arabs rate Rhino horn handles by colour, grain & of course translucency. The yellow translucent bieng the most expensive & highly prized & indeed my Jambiya with such a handle glows like a bulb in bright sunlight, so i can see its attraction. Apparently in yemen sesame oil is used to restore old handles, but lanolin sounds good to me. ive used baby oil but will experiment with sessame & lanolin in futre. Spiral

9th January 2007, 09:59 PM	#86
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Spiral. This is really great. You confirm some of my observations and give new info at the same time. I have never seen a green (or is it "greenish"?) horn. Would like to examine one, though. You are right when you say that the "dark core" does not have a precise position. I have noticed that too. Keep in touch. Black, White, Indian and Javanese. Who's the fifth? I guess I could google it...

9th January 2007, 10:09 PM	#87
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	thanks Roanoa, glad it was of help to you. Rhino horn is fascinating. To me & others who have seen the crop the reaction is always that its green or in some light, grey green with light flecks in the grain. the 5th rhino type is the Sumatran, it has 2 horns but those left today the horn is only vistigal. I guess allthoughts with larger horns have been hunted out over the years so have been removed from the breeding stock. take care , spiral