A large 19th century flintlock pistol - Page 3

Pukka Bundook · 10th February 2021, 06:46 AM

Naaa, they went south for warmer weather..

fernando · 10th February 2021, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

...I look forward to hearing of the information from the proof House...

Claude Gaier, Director of the Liege Arms Museum, is deceased since the last January 3th.
Here the BIOGRAPHY of a great arms specialist.

PS
I have now sen t e-mail to the present museum curator.

.

corrado26 · 10th February 2021, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Are there bears in your neighbourhood, Udo ?

.

No, just a joke!

rickystl · 10th February 2021, 04:57 PM

Interesting discussion on this pistol. Here is one that I own. The stock finish is almost completely worn off. Looks like someone was going to refinish it but never completed. But there is no evidence of later sanding. Also, it appears the lock and barrel were chemically cleaned sometime in the past.

I've always known this pistol by it's generic name of Belgium Navel Pistol, in use from about 1810 to 1835. I recall reading somewhere that this pistol was made by the thousands and sold everywhere. That Bannerman's early catalog had surplus still for sale probably attests to the quantity made.

Interesting the lack of a ramrod provision. My guess is that a separate loading rod suspended from a leather cord around the neck, was the thinking behind the pistol's design. But I may be wrong in that I've never seen what you might call a "European" type standardized loading rod for these pistols. Much like most of the pistols carried by troops in the Ottoman Empire. Combined with the use of pre-formed paper cartridges, re-loading is very quick. I can actually confirm this from a trial I did firing my pistol using this method. The separate rod around the neck is even more convenient than the later captured type ramrod.
On the other hand, as mentioned above, all of these pistols aboard a ship may have been loaded at the same time and then fired once during a ship-to-ship battle, and then used as a club or parrying piece.
The pistol is very robustly made. The front barrel wedge (versus a pin) is especially convenient. Just about every example I've seen is still, or can be easily returned to shooting condition today.

Rick

rickystl · 10th February 2021, 04:59 PM

Woops. Forgot the photos.....

fernando · 10th February 2021, 05:33 PM

Is that some mark, Rick ?

.

rickystl · 10th February 2021, 05:42 PM

Hi Fernando

Yes, I seem to recall it is. But can't remember. Been a while since I've handled/fired it. I'll check it out when I get home tonight.

Rick

Norman McCormick · 10th February 2021, 06:39 PM

Hi Rick,
Any chance of dismounting the barrel on your pistol and photographing any marks in closeup plus of course the marks Fernando has already mentioned.
My Regards,
Norman.

corrado26 · 10th February 2021, 07:22 PM

and here is one with some marks

corrado26 · 10th February 2021, 07:24 PM

another one with a tugra on its barrel

corrado26 · 10th February 2021, 07:27 PM

and the next one with the mark of the Isfahan arsenal on its lockplate

corrado26 · 10th February 2021, 07:30 PM

and last a same pistol with an unknown signature at its lockplate - could eventually be a year?

fernando · 10th February 2021, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

...I've always known this pistol by it's generic name of Belgium Navel Pistol, in use from about 1810 to 1835. I recall reading somewhere that this pistol was made by the thousands and sold everywhere. That Bannerman's early catalog had surplus still for sale probably attests to the quantity made...

Still you find dozens of them for sale out there, with their Liege marks ... one a gift for Captain Mark; the barrel engraved HMS ACHERON

.

.

fernando · 10th February 2021, 07:45 PM

So Udo was faster ... but i've got the ACHERON

.

M ELEY · 10th February 2021, 10:09 PM

Ahh, the Achercon! If only it were not spurious!

I finally took the barrel off of mine, but the only marking on it was 'HK'...

fernando · 11th February 2021, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... I have now sen t e-mail to the present museum curator...

... And here is the (roughly translated) answer:

You are right, such correct information is not always easy to find, given the scope and complexity of the subject. It has been five months since i took office and i still 'often swim'. Having said that, i highly recommend a very reliable and well done site where you should find everything you need. They have also just published an encyclopedia in six volumes on the Liège armory that i have already ordered. This site is HERE.
Hoping that this site will meet your expectations, please receive, Mr. Viana, the expression of my warmest regards.

Löic Servais
Conservator

Rick · 11th February 2021, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Ahh, the Achercon! If only it were not spurious!

I finally took the barrel off of mine, but the only marking on it was 'HK'...

Kinda spurious I guess...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Acheron

fernando · 11th February 2021, 08:59 PM

A bit of fantasy hurts no one. Here is the paddle sloop Archeron version, launched in 1838. Who knows the captain already had his Liege pistol and had its barrel engraved when he was assigned to this elegant vessel

.

.

M ELEY · 12th February 2021, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Kinda spurious I guess...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Acheron

Of course, Rick! You bring up a good point; more than one Acheron! Which means the marking could be legit. I was thinking of THE Acheron of Nelson's era-

fernando · 12th February 2021, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Of course, Rick! You bring up a good point; more than one Acheron! Which means the marking could be legit. I was thinking of THE Acheron of Nelson's era-

Nelson was in command of the HMS VICTORY by then (1805) when he was killed.
Reason why i took a shot at the paddler (post #78 ).

Rick · 12th February 2021, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Of course, Rick! You bring up a good point; more than one Acheron! Which means the marking could be legit. I was thinking of THE Acheron of Nelson's era-

Hi Mark,
One never knows; eh?

The first Acheron appears to have been a lowly Bomb Ketch according to the list I consulted.
IIRC she was in the Royal Navy service from 1803 to 1805 when she was captured in the Med by the French.
A short career and one that predates the pistol's production date.

Still it would be a nice acquisition for a fan of the Movie.

rickystl · 13th February 2021, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Is that some mark, Rick ?

.

Hi again Fernando.

No, that's the threaded hole for the mainspring screw.
It's been a while. So I took the barrel and lock off per Norman's request. I'll post what I found with photos below.

Rick

rickystl · 13th February 2021, 09:30 PM

OK. First the lock:

There are no markings on the outside of the lock. Here is what I found on the inside: In the center of the lock plate are the letters: FD FD gd L
The front inside of the lock plate has four intentional hash marks. And a series of small, round punch marks on the inside of the hammer and pan, as well as the pan cover of the frizzen. Maybe just assembly matching.
The first F could be something different as it's partially covered by the mainspring. (I guess I could take the mainspring off)

Rick

rickystl · 13th February 2021, 09:41 PM

And now the barrel:

On the bottom of the breech plug tang is the number 42.
On the left, rear side of the barrel, at the breech are two stamped letters I can't make out. But the ELC over the star inside the oval is there.
On the bottom of the barrel, about 2 inches from the breech is a similar mark posted by Corado above. Below that mark it looks like there are two stamped, separated letters I can't make out.

Rick

Norman McCormick · 14th February 2021, 01:10 PM

Hi Rick,
Many thanks for dismounting your pistol, unfortunately I am still in the dark re the various and differing stamps on this type of pistol. I am corresponding with someone in Belgium to try and get some more definitive information on the marks and of course will post the results if and when. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 14th February 2021, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

... And a series of small, round punch marks on the inside of the hammer and pan, as well as the pan cover of the frizzen. Maybe just assembly matching...

I would say ... definitely !

fernando · 14th February 2021, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Rick,
Many thanks for dismounting your pistol, unfortunately I am still in the dark re the various and differing stamps on this type of pistol. I am corresponding with someone in Belgium to try and get some more definitive information on the marks and of course will post the results if and when. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

So Norman, the link in my post #26 is not useful. I confess i did not navigate into it.
Best
Fernando

Norman McCormick · 14th February 2021, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

So Norman, the link in my post #26 is not useful. I confess i did not navigate into it.
Best
Fernando

Hi Fernando,
Your link takes me to the same place as the link in my post no 35. I've been through the site and although it has good info it is not complete so I am still searching. Thanks anyway.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 14th February 2021, 03:46 PM

So bad; no wonder the actual curator is new on the job and didn't properly deal with my specific question; marks and their support text

.

Pukka Bundook · 14th February 2021, 04:23 PM

Rick,

The mark in your last photo of the barrel is the Belgian Provincial proof mark.
After 1968, this mark is for Optional Provincial proof. Of course your pistol pre-dates this! (EL in script.)
This mark can be seen clearly in my post # 53 on previous page.

10th February 2021, 04:59 PM	#65
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Woops. Forgot the photos..... Attached Images

10th February 2021, 05:33 PM	#66
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Is that some mark, Rick ? . Attached Images

10th February 2021, 07:22 PM	#69
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	and here is one with some marks Attached Images

10th February 2021, 07:24 PM	#70
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	another one with a tugra on its barrel Attached Images

10th February 2021, 07:27 PM	#71
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	and the next one with the mark of the Isfahan arsenal on its lockplate Attached Images

10th February 2021, 06:46 AM	#61
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Naaa, they went south for warmer weather..

10th February 2021, 04:57 PM	#64
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Interesting discussion on this pistol. Here is one that I own. The stock finish is almost completely worn off. Looks like someone was going to refinish it but never completed. But there is no evidence of later sanding. Also, it appears the lock and barrel were chemically cleaned sometime in the past. I've always known this pistol by it's generic name of Belgium Navel Pistol, in use from about 1810 to 1835. I recall reading somewhere that this pistol was made by the thousands and sold everywhere. That Bannerman's early catalog had surplus still for sale probably attests to the quantity made. Interesting the lack of a ramrod provision. My guess is that a separate loading rod suspended from a leather cord around the neck, was the thinking behind the pistol's design. But I may be wrong in that I've never seen what you might call a "European" type standardized loading rod for these pistols. Much like most of the pistols carried by troops in the Ottoman Empire. Combined with the use of pre-formed paper cartridges, re-loading is very quick. I can actually confirm this from a trial I did firing my pistol using this method. The separate rod around the neck is even more convenient than the later captured type ramrod. On the other hand, as mentioned above, all of these pistols aboard a ship may have been loaded at the same time and then fired once during a ship-to-ship battle, and then used as a club or parrying piece. The pistol is very robustly made. The front barrel wedge (versus a pin) is especially convenient. Just about every example I've seen is still, or can be easily returned to shooting condition today. Rick

10th February 2021, 05:42 PM	#67
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Fernando Yes, I seem to recall it is. But can't remember. Been a while since I've handled/fired it. I'll check it out when I get home tonight. Rick

10th February 2021, 06:39 PM	#68
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Rick, Any chance of dismounting the barrel on your pistol and photographing any marks in closeup plus of course the marks Fernando has already mentioned. My Regards, Norman.

10th February 2021, 07:30 PM	#72
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	and last a same pistol with an unknown signature at its lockplate - could eventually be a year? Attached Images

10th February 2021, 07:45 PM	#74
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So Udo was faster ... but i've got the ACHERON .

10th February 2021, 10:09 PM	#75
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Ahh, the Achercon! If only it were not spurious! I finally took the barrel off of mine, but the only marking on it was 'HK'...

11th February 2021, 08:59 PM	#78
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A bit of fantasy hurts no one. Here is the paddle sloop Archeron version, launched in 1838. Who knows the captain already had his Liege pistol and had its barrel engraved when he was assigned to this elegant vessel . . Attached Images

13th February 2021, 09:30 PM	#83
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	OK. First the lock: There are no markings on the outside of the lock. Here is what I found on the inside: In the center of the lock plate are the letters: FD FD gd L The front inside of the lock plate has four intentional hash marks. And a series of small, round punch marks on the inside of the hammer and pan, as well as the pan cover of the frizzen. Maybe just assembly matching. The first F could be something different as it's partially covered by the mainspring. (I guess I could take the mainspring off) Rick Attached Images

13th February 2021, 09:41 PM	#84
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	And now the barrel: On the bottom of the breech plug tang is the number 42. On the left, rear side of the barrel, at the breech are two stamped letters I can't make out. But the ELC over the star inside the oval is there. On the bottom of the barrel, about 2 inches from the breech is a similar mark posted by Corado above. Below that mark it looks like there are two stamped, separated letters I can't make out. Rick Attached Images

14th February 2021, 01:10 PM	#85
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Rick, Many thanks for dismounting your pistol, unfortunately I am still in the dark re the various and differing stamps on this type of pistol. I am corresponding with someone in Belgium to try and get some more definitive information on the marks and of course will post the results if and when. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman.

14th February 2021, 03:46 PM	#89
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So bad; no wonder the actual curator is new on the job and didn't properly deal with my specific question; marks and their support text .

14th February 2021, 04:23 PM	#90
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, The mark in your last photo of the barrel is the Belgian Provincial proof mark. After 1968, this mark is for Optional Provincial proof. Of course your pistol pre-dates this! (EL in script.) This mark can be seen clearly in my post # 53 on previous page.