Maranao Sundang

[Battara]

I will make a note - even if the blades were originally etched (and I think they were like most of those in Indonesia) many may not have been kept that way all the time, especially battle field pieces, but occasionally.

Then as time passes, the etching/staining may not stay for long due to oxidation or soft abrasion in the scabbards. I have noticed this on Indonesian pieces. My Balinese keris blade, for example, was once black and silver, but 200 years later is grey-blue and silver. In some of the museums, I have seen junggayan kris that showed the pattern welding - and the museums do not have the understanding or time to etch/stain!

However, I do know that subsequent owners who brought them over to the US did as a custom of the day did polish/clean blades - PI/Moro/US Civil War/etc - and made them shiny......

[kino]

Originally Posted by Rick

I've got a pair of black Katins ........

Me too. HUI!

[P.Abrera]

Originally Posted by Battara

I will make a note - even if the blades were originally etched (and I think they were like most of those in Indonesia) many may not have been kept that way all the time, especially battle field pieces, but occasionally.

Then as time passes, the etching/staining may not stay for long due to oxidation or soft abrasion in the scabbards. I have noticed this on Indonesian pieces. My Balinese keris blade, for example, was once black and silver, but 200 years later is grey-blue and silver. In some of the museums, I have seen junggayan kris that showed the pattern welding - and the museums do not have the understanding or time to etch/stain!

However, I do know that subsequent owners who brought them over to the US did as a custom of the day did polish/clean blades - PI/Moro/US Civil War/etc - and made them shiny......

Just to get my 2 cents in, I would assume that since the moro aesthetic included choosing well grained woods for the beautiful figure of the grain as well as taking pains to polish horn and ivory for thier luster, thier aesthetic may very well have included etching treatments to reveal and enhance the grain and complex blade structures of thier swords.

But just to balance that out, stories are told of the practice of polishing and whitening blades before going juramentado as well.

These are just old stories but may well have some basis like the term "pinuti" in visayan swords meaning to whiten.

Just throwing some ideas around

[David]

Well, this is just Wiki info and the actual statement is not credited, but this article also mentions polishing the weapon before juramentado.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BusterD/sandbox

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello David,







I don't think these qualify as evidence. Maybe these blades were not touched once they reached the US collection/museum. However, there was plenty of time to "clean up" the blades on the voyage back home. An officer had enough bored soldiers at hand to set up a cleaning party...






Regards,
Kai

i don't see why they shouldn't. it was given to the officer by different datus knowing he was an avid collector. and these were boxed up before leaving p.i. btw, major conflict in mindanao didn't start until 1902 so you could say these were acquired during "peace time"...

check out datu banquie's (sp) kris. i realize it's not close up, but it seems to be the dude's like, "check this shiny kris i got..."

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by kino

LOLZ!

Did anyone see Sunny Garcia chase Neco out of the water during the '07 Pipe Masters. Talk about ticking off the locals.

ho brah! you should check the alexander kala/texan surfer beef at pipes about 5 years ago. i think youtube still got it. it's a classic!

[David]

Great photo Ron. I hope we can find more like this that show the blades in an old cultural context.

[kino]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

ho brah! you should check the alexander kala/texan surfer beef at pipes about 5 years ago. i think youtube still got it. it's a classic!

I did see a few years ago. Kala's the enforcer. No dropping in on someone, no shoulder hopping, Pipes too dangerous. Gotta respect.

[Rick]

The middle sundang with the sharp luks that Ron showed in his pic; even polished you could easily see the structure within that blade .

'He so haole .......'

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i don't see why they shouldn't. it was given to the officer by different datus knowing he was an avid collector. and these were boxed up before leaving p.i. btw, major conflict in mindanao didn't start until 1902 so you could say these were acquired during "peace time"...

check out datu banquie's (sp) kris. i realize it's not close up, but it seems to be the dude's like, "check this shiny kris i got..."

Actually I think the picture was over exposed, so I lowered the exposure and below is the result. Notice that the baka baka are shiny and lighter in color than the blade....

[ThePepperSkull]

Apologies in advance if it's bad form to resurrect an old thread on these forums, but I remember seeing a picture not too long ago of a Datu (from Sulu, I believe) holding his Kris in the air with the sun shining in his face.

The whole blade did not glint in the sun, in fact it looked quite grey/black in the picture. The two baca-baca at the base of the blade, however, were quite reflective.

I can't for the life of me find that picture now, but when I do, I'll be sure to edit this post with it.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Apologies in advance if it's bad form to resurrect an old thread on these forums, but I remember seeing a picture not too long ago of a Datu (from Sulu, I believe) holding his Kris in the air with the sun shining in his face.

The whole blade did not glint in the sun, in fact it looked quite grey/black in the picture. The two baca-baca at the base of the blade, however, were quite reflective.

I can't for the life of me find that picture now, but when I do, I'll be sure to edit this post with it.

must be this one!

[Aleksey G.]

same pic with with a touch of some photo magic

[ThePepperSkull]

It's that exact one! Thanks, guys.

I remember seeing it numerous times while reading about moro Kris, but when the image needs popping up, I couldn't seem to find it!

[Bill M]

Looks like his feet are etched

[David]

Well i would say that the blade definitely appears to be etched dark in this photo so there must be some tradition to it.

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Looks like his feet are etched

I wonder what Pamor we'd call that.... Pamor Bluchis (Blue cheese) ?

Originally Posted by David

Well i would say that the blade definitely appears to be etched dark in this photo so there must be some tradition to it.

Definitely. I'd say that this would be indicative of the aforementioned sun heat and Citrus juice etching method mentioned in this thread.

[Bill M]

I heard that the Moro liked darker blades when they waited in ambush. Perhaps lighter blades when at home or when they wanted to make a "flashy entrance."

I recently met a Moro Princess of the Buayan Dynasty. Maybe she would know. I'll ask. She is more involved in politics, but since Datu Utto was in her lineage, she might have an opinion.

[Gustav]

Dear All,

regarding the stain on moro krisses: in a catalogue of an Pilippines exhibition in Munich from 1985 I found this kris.

There is no date of acquisition in the catalogue, yet it should be between 1880 and 1926.

It is also interesting with regards to this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=kris+krosses

[Battara]

Gustav, what a great piece! Superb in condition and creation. Also great example of blades being first stained.

I might place this piece a little earlier only because of the workmanship quality. maybe 1860s - 1880s? The blade is Maguindanao. The work maybe too.

Thanks for sharing. Could you also post the description please (even if it is in German)?

[Gustav]

Jose, the description is very rudimentary:

A sword with straight Kris-blade. Blackened steel with "Silbertauschierung" (silver inlays). Chased silver handle in shape of a rudimentary bird form, which carries the kris on its back (typ 1.5); length: 55 cm; Sulu Archipelago, 19. cent.

Staatliches Museum für Völkerkunde München.

Inv. number : 25-60-14

The writer, Rose Schubert, has an interesting, yet strange vision of the hilt: she interprets these hilts as a bird, which carries the kris on its back; this form becomes evident once the tip of the blade points upward. It makes perhaps some sense with Junggayan, yet not with simpler forms.

I ask me, if description "silver inlay" is absolutely precise also. If you look closely, the silver vire seems twisted. I suppose, it could be intertwined silver and gold wire, as seen on some examples.

Jose, if you are interested in the date of acquisition of this kris, I could try to ask the museum.

[Battara]

If you would Gustav, that would be great. The blade looks Maguindanao, but yes the okir has a Sulu flair to it, even though some aspects seem Maguindanao as well.

Any extra information would be so helpful to us......

[Spunjer]

beautiful kris, gustav. similar in style with this kris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=robotic
notice the one kino posted on that same thread.

Originally Posted by Gustav

The writer, Rose Schubert, has an interesting, yet strange vision of the hilt: she interprets these hilts as a bird, which carries the kris on its back; this form becomes evident once the tip of the blade points upward. It makes perhaps some sense with Junggayan, yet not with simpler forms.

i agree with the writer on this, in that the hilt is that of a bird; sarimanok, to be more specific, and not the cockatoo that cato proposed. junggayans tend to be the more stylized and kinda pushing it to the edge version of the sarimanok...

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i agree with the writer on this, in that the hilt is that of a bird; sarimanok, to be more specific, and not the cockatoo that cato proposed. junggayans tend to be the more stylized and kinda pushing it to the edge version of the sarimanok...

Ron, would you see the bird also this way then? As I said, with Juggayan it makes some sense, yet with simpler forms...

Jose, I would not pay to much attention to the description. There is a picture of campilan she also describes "Sulu Archipelago", as well as the kris below.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Gustav

I ask me, if description "silver inlay" is absolutely precise also. If you look closely, the silver vire seems twisted. I suppose, it could be intertwined silver and gold wire, as seen on some examples.

I forgot to respond to this - yes there are wire twist inlays done on some kris. Not an easy thing to do.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Ron, would you see the bird also this way then? As I said, with Juggayan it makes some sense, yet with simpler forms...

hello Gustav,
yes. on the pommel of the kris in the picture you've provided, you could see the profile of the sarimanok, the mythical chicken venerated throughout Moroland. meanwhile, the more common types (I've attached a picture below, in the same position) is just that, a less elaborate form of the junggayan pommel, but nevertheless, it's the same motif. notice the triangular appendage (with a curly cue tip) on the side of the junggayan pommel. it's pretty obvious representation of the wings. you will notice the same appendages on the less elaborate pommels. the flat, angled part on the left (of the picture) of the common pommel is just an abbreviated version of the tail, while on the right is an abbreviated version of the head. such is Ukkil..
the Sarimanok is a common motif in the arts and crafts of the Moro culture, but nowhere do you see the cockatoo.

[Gustav]

Ron, thank you very much for the explanation.

[Battara]

Gustav, you have pm.