Recently made Omani Kattara / Saif

[David]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The sword is also used for the Raz'ha which contains a sort of combat practice. Am sure losing grip while doing Raz'ha is equally embarrasing (but less lethal then losing grip in battle..) so the hilt is not really an issue, that also considering that there are other examples of swords with no guard or pommel.

Here is the Raz'ha: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpfIp_TR_PQ for more context.

Interesting video, but i see nothing here that comes close to the ferocity of real combat. It would indeed be embarrassing if one were to lose grip on the hilt during this dance sequence, even though it is martially based.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

....but you are NOT creating the real thing....just a REPLICA I do hope that when complete, that it is clearly labeled or the hilt stamped as such, so as not to deceive possible buyers/owners in years to come.
There are enough so called "genuine" pieces around already which the uneducated pay large amounts of money for.....

Salaams kahnjar1~ So that you can understand the Iconization process throughout history you may like to read the balanced and well presented thread at Kattara for comments. In any restoration project whatever is done should be easily reversible. Infact when I rehilt a blade I always keep the original and often frame that as a small presentation for the new owner... and certificate with as accurate a history as I can. Iconization of the old omani battle sword goes on today as a natural extension of the 19th C process and that will be a family sword carried at state occasions pageants and the like in honour of our history...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

As for the other question at hand, i admittedly know very little about these swords, but to my untrained eye i cannot see how the hilts on these so-called "dance swords" would be at all practical in a battle situation. Not only is there no cross piece to protect the hand, but also no pommel of any substance to keep the blade from slipping out of the hand in the heat of battle.

Salaams David ~ In some ways you are right except of course that the sword never went into battle as it is only a dancing sword... The grip is normally fairly firm and often covered in leather however making it a reasonable grip ... but that does not make it a fighting sword... Never was. I am about to address something interesting on Kattara for comments regarding this general phenomena on the long flexible sword and the old omani battle sword.. regarding the tip.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Same set up can be seen on a variety of other swords, biggest example would be Manding sabres. That's not to say I claim to know the function of the Omani sayf, but the configuration isn't necessarily something that makes it entirely impractical as a weapon.

As for the other issue of rehilting... I have always maintained we should preserve what comes into our possession. When you are putting something entirely new onto a piece, rather than preserving what exists, or carefully restoring missing pieces to an already existing hilt, it ceases to be restoration.

Salaams Iain ~ I agree however Iconization is an ongoing process since this is living history through the Funoon...The tradition. It is entirely acceptable in this country to add a royal hilt to an old battle sword . In our case we either silver adorn the old hilt or in the case of a rehilt retain the remnants intact of the old hilt and present that framed alongside the iconized item with a certificate and photos. Taking off the old hilt takes 5 minutes as it is only secured with two rivvets and no damage occurs... Im afraid this line of discussion was kicked off with apparent mischief as the only motivator and I tire of such rediculous diversions by others.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~ I agree however Iconization is an ongoing process since this is living history through the Funoon...The tradition. It is entirely acceptable in this country to add a royal hilt to an old battle sword . In our case we either silver adorn the old hilt or in the case of a rehilt retain the remnants intact of the old hilt and present that framed alongside the iconized item with a certificate and photos. Taking off the old hilt takes 5 minutes as it is only secured with two rivvets and no damage occurs... Im afraid this line of discussion was kicked off with apparent mischief as the only motivator and I tire of such rediculous diversions by others.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim, I'm glad to hear the rehilting is non invasive and in keeping with the traditions of the culture that produced it. I'm on the extreme end of "don't touch anything" with antiques so I have a bit of an allergic reaction to rehilting.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

oops double entry ... see below

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim, I'm glad to hear the rehilting is non invasive and in keeping with the traditions of the culture that produced it. I'm on the extreme end of "don't touch anything" with antiques so I have a bit of an allergic reaction to rehilting.

Salaams Iain ~ I completely understand and thank you for your posts which are always constructive and well placed. This is only one of a few hilts I have done including a nice Indian dagger ... However I do a lot of Khanjar hilts that have fallen apart (and anyway they are interchangeable)and we make new Khanjars for the high end UAE market that demands brand new superb quality items. I have a few swords that I wouldnt touch ... they just grow old gracefully and without hilts... so we have a similar outlook.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Im afraid this line of discussion was kicked off with apparent mischief as the only motivator and I tire of such rediculous diversions by others.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Considering that I was the one that started this discussion, no, mischief was the last thing on my mind and if I would want harm I would have stated my points otherwise. Sorry if it came out that way ;-)

I just like items as they are IF they are complete, I see no point in changing the hilt of a perfectly authentic old battle sword but thanks for clarifying that it wont be invasive. Its interesting that Omani's would iconise those old blades yet do not use them as the heraldic symbol for the Sultanate.

The Omani straight saif and the Kattarah were always the symbols used on Omani tv and I remember how much they play the Raz'ha. Any reason why the old battle saif was kept out of the heraldic symbol?

On the topic I made about the Arabian sword dances, the video that shows King Abdullah dancing; it seems that he is wearing a golden Omani khanjar with the royal hilt!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

I have an analogous question: what about the kattaras that do not bend 90 degrees and are not vibrating? The majority I have seen are just like that, mine included, and it is not new, with pretty sturdy and crude blade and a "genoese" gurda marking. Does it make sense that there would be 2 different "models", one for dancing and another for fighting?

I see not so much problem with "straying into logic", but rather straying out of it. Even European court swords were meant not only for show, but were manufactured under decent fighting standards. Male sword dancing is a sacral experience in all cultures, and creating an intentionally non-battle-ready swords for such an activity would be utterly illogical. Especially in a close, "dark age", society like 19-cen. Oman.
BTW, my quilloned Kattara has no markings. Plain, sturdy, locally-made, unsophisticated killer. Love it!

Salaams ariel ~ Last point first ... You are right about the old omani battle sword ... its a Quilloned killer ! ... They call all straight swords here Sayf... Thus the important detail of passing that name and the shield on in what looks like the mid 19thC. Interesting that you call it "locally made" however as that isnt quite proven yet and its nickname is Sayf Yamaani it could be a Hadramaut job though I suspect Nizwa . The Omani Dancing flexible long sword defies logic... I agree. I am about to wax lyrical upon the subject on Kattara for comments... please join the discussion there if you can.

First paragraph which I missed initially... Again I think you refer to Sayfs; straight blades and in this case apparently mounted on Omani long hilts. In the Omani jargon; If they dont bend through 90 degrees from the tip they aren't Omani dancing swords. They may have been rehilted in Muscat after 1970 and sold to a visitor... or are Red Sea blades of some sort. There are stiff Saudia, Yemeni and Ethiopian blades(European in the case of the latter) that fit the description and as an interesting thought some resemble Schiavona blades. I see a lot in Muscat souk and often they have fake running woolf marks etc.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1~ So that you can understand the Iconization process throughout history you may like to read the balanced and well presented thread at Kattara for comments. In any restoration project whatever is done should be easily reversible. Infact when I rehilt a blade I always keep the original and often frame that as a small presentation for the new owner... and certificate with as accurate a history as I can. Iconization of the old omani battle sword goes on today as a natural extension of the 19th C process and that will be a family sword carried at state occasions pageants and the like in honour of our history...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Call it what you like, but my point was that in future years, if this REPLICA surfaces for resale, the future buyer could well be duped if the seller suggests that this is a RARE ORIGINAL ROYAL HILTED SWORD or suchlike and ends up paying huge amounts of money for something which is nothing more than a FAKE. I think by now we all know how good your workshop is at turning out modern made items, so all I am trying to do is safeguard the collectors of the future.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David ~ In some ways you are right except of course that the sword never went into battle as it is only a dancing sword...

No Ibrahiim, i am completely right. The point of my post is just that, to support that assertion...

[David]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Call it what you like, but my point was that in future years, if this REPLICA surfaces for resale, the future buyer could well be duped if the seller suggests that this is a RARE ORIGINAL ROYAL HILTED SWORD or suchlike and ends up paying huge amounts of money for something which is nothing more than a FAKE. I think by now we all know how good your workshop is at turning out modern made items, so all I am trying to do is safeguard the collectors of the future.

This was also my point with my other post. There is certainly a danger that the originality of this blade might well be misrepresented to some future buyer.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

This was also my point with my other post. There is certainly a danger that the originality of this blade might well be misrepresented to some future buyer.

Salaams David~ Iconization of swords has been going on here for generations. It doesnt subtract from the value at all. In fact it enhances it.

Imagine you are in Zanzibar 150 years ago and someone hands you a blade... a European blade ... and you want it mounted on a Zanzibari hilt... as a Zanzibari Nimcha...Not a problem. The same today with Old Omani Battle Swords if I want to Iconize the sword so it looks the business at eids, weddings or VIP meetings; The blade goes to workshops and the hilt is either silver wrapped and adorned or removed and a Royal Hilt is placed retaining the original as stated etc... Just iconizing a blade in the handed down living historical process that is Omani Tradition. As I said I'm not selling it.. so its an Heirloom. Thankyou for your post ..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Call it what you like, but my point was that in future years, if this REPLICA surfaces for resale, the future buyer could well be duped if the seller suggests that this is a RARE ORIGINAL ROYAL HILTED SWORD or suchlike and ends up paying huge amounts of money for something which is nothing more than a FAKE. I think by now we all know how good your workshop is at turning out modern made items, so all I am trying to do is safeguard the collectors of the future.

Salaams kahnjar1,
No such thing as a rare original royal hilt unless you are refering to the one in the museum ~ Like the Royal Hilted Khanjars there is nothing particularly rare about a Royal Hilt... anyone can wear one.. Its traditional, accepted and ongoing.

I expect people will still be Iconizing Khanjars and hilts of swords for hundreds of years here.. That is the Omani way... "The tradition" is alive and well. If you can grasp that perhaps you will be closer to understanding Oman.

If a new piece is added as a replacement on one of my items for example a Khanjar or Sword which has no hilt or the scabbard dissappeared 50 years ago or the silver is incomplete; We restore to as close to perfection as we can. As you know Khanjars are for ever being altered and changed for better blades etc in an upgrading process that goes back centuries.. The same with swords whose hilts often fall apart or the silver becomes battered damaged or lost... see Kattara for comments . I have just posted a fantastic dancing sword whose scabbard is in need of redoing... New silver toe and furniture needed.

In the case of an heirloom piece or a gift or an item for a client the work is recorded, photographed and certificated as it is restored so that there is always a historical account of what we did... and of course it must always be sympathetically carried out and reversible. Thats what we do.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1,
No such thing as a rare original royal hilt unless you are refering to the one in the museum ~ Like the Royal Hilted Khanjars there is nothing particularly rare about a Royal Hilt... anyone can wear one.. Its traditional, accepted and ongoing.

I expect people will still be Iconizing Khanjars and hilts of swords for hundreds of years here.. That is the Omani way... "The tradition" is alive and well. If you can grasp that perhaps you will be closer to understanding Oman.

If a new piece is added as a replacement on one of my items for example a Khanjar or Sword which has no hilt or the scabbard dissappeared 50 years ago or the silver is incomplete; We restore to as close to perfection as we can. As you know Khanjars are for ever being altered and changed for better blades etc in an upgrading process that goes back centuries.. The same with swords whose hilts often fall apart or the silver becomes battered damaged or lost... see Kattara for comments . I have just posted a fantastic dancing sword whose scabbard is in need of redoing... New silver toe and furniture needed.

In the case of an heirloom piece or a gift or an item for a client the work is recorded, photographed and certificated as it is restored so that there is always a historical account of what we did... and of course it must always be sympathetically carried out and reversible. Thats what we do.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

If you read my post properly you will see that I am not suggesting there is such a thing as a RARE ORIGINAL ROYAL HILTED SWORD, but simply using that term as an example of how someone may describe your REPLICA in the future to try and sell it.
My point all along has been that a "major rebuilt" or creation of a potentially RARE and EXPENSIVE item,(and I am not talking restoration here), should be marked in some way to state that it is NOT ORIGINAL.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

If you read my post properly you will see that I am not suggesting there is such a thing as a RARE ORIGINAL ROYAL HILTED SWORD, but simply using that term as an example of how someone may describe your REPLICA in the future to try and sell it.
My point all along has been that a "major rebuilt" or creation of a potentially RARE and EXPENSIVE item,(and I am not talking restoration here), should be marked in some way to state that it is NOT ORIGINAL.

Salaams kahnjar1~ I dont have any replicas..I have read your post... It is incorrect to suggest replica. We only restore professionally. Most decent swords here in Oman eventually get a rebuilt scabbard and most decent Khanjars have some changes in their lives. (Most of its parts are interchangeable.)

You may have failed to understand the nature of artefacts that are in full use here every day like Khanjars and used scores of times per annum in the case of Pageantry Swords... and Iconized Weapons. They or parts of them wear out or get damaged...Perhaps if you read a few books on the subject it will enhance your knowledge.

I am talking about restoration and Iconization which is the traditional, accepted, historical, respected, endorsement of a weapon by upgrading it to VIP Status... This is a living, breathing, historical function not a dead art... We do Iconization of swords in Oman today... and will do for many years. The job is carefully done so as not to change the original format and so that it may, if required, be returned to status later with certification and photos. You appear to misunderstand the basic facts. (Again); Not Replica.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1~ I dont have any replicas..I have read your post... It is incorrect to suggest replica. We only restore professionally. Most decent swords here in Oman eventually get a rebuilt scabbard and most decent Khanjars have some changes in their lives. (Most of its parts are interchangeable.)

You may have failed to understand the nature of artefacts that are in full use here every day like Khanjars and used scores of times per annum in the case of Pageantry Swords... and Iconized Weapons. They or parts of them wear out or get damaged...Perhaps if you read a few books on the subject it will enhance your knowledge.

I am talking about restoration and Iconization which is the traditional, accepted, historical, respected, endorsement of a weapon by upgrading it to VIP Status... This is a living, breathing, historical function not a dead art... We do Iconization of swords in Oman today... and will do for many years. The job is carefully done so as not to change the original format and so that it may, if required, be returned to status later with certification and photos. You appear to misunderstand the basic facts. (Again); Not Replica.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

..I give up. You seem not to want to understand what I am trying to say....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

..I give up. You seem not to want to understand what I am trying to say....

I give up because you cannot understand.