Identifying Pamor for a First Keris - Page 2

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 07:16 PM

I neglected to ask what sort of thread is ideal to reinstall the hilt? Any knotting techniques? It seems to me squareknots would do well?

The old thread was really disgusting, I had to toss it. The seller must have taken his pictures after acquisition and then tucked away the blade for a long time.

What sort of oils are you all using. The Indonesians members say not to use synthetics. I'm inclined to agree with them. But anything you have to say I will also listen to.

Rick · 13th May 2019, 07:21 PM

Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed.
Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 07:25 PM

I read on the forum not to sharpen the blade. That makes me happy. It's still sharp enough, anyway. I've knicked myself a few times during cleaning.

Is a very light polish a bad idea? I have Cape Cod cloths I use for my watches and jewelry. This is something I'm good at already. I'm very tactile. I can feel when I've polished off less than a mm. I'll be able to retain the pamor.

David · 13th May 2019, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

I can't find the glue and dye you recommended, Mr. A.G. I'll have to order them online and finish the woodwork later. What exactly is this 'bambu'?

There is a little wiggle in the base fit. What do I fill that with? I think for the warangka to match the shape of the blade I would have to do a lot of sanding. I don't do woodwork so don't have machines. It would have to be by hand.

Alan is in Australia, so it's probably sleep time for him at the moment. I am sure he will be back to answer you questions, though i believe i can answer some of them.
Araldite is a two-step epoxy. I am not sure if to is commercially available in the USA, though you can probably find to on the internet. Alan may correct me, but i am fairly sure that there are other two-step you could substitute if you wish.
I suspect that by "bambu" Alan was referring to bamboo. I believe that slivers of bamboo that Alan suggested inserted into the loose spaces will take care of the wiggle room you have. Please correct me if i am wrong Alan.
I don't believe anything you need to do here requires any machine working. It can all be done by hand.
Can you put the pieces together and insert the blade and make some photographs so that we can see how the blade fits (or doesn't) in the sheath? Both the veil from the side and the top as well would be helpful.

David · 13th May 2019, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

I read on the forum not to sharpen the blade. That makes me happy. It's still sharp enough, anyway. I've knicked myself a few times during cleaning.

Is a very light polish a bad idea? I have Cape Cod cloths I use for my watches and jewelry. This is something I'm good at already. I'm very tactile. I can feel when I've polished off less than a mm. I'll be able to retain the pamor.

I would not attempt to polish this blade. Bali blade are traditionally polished when cleaned and stained, but i believe we have already established that is is not a Bali blade (probably Lombok) and it seems clear that re-polishing has not been the rule for this blade within its lifetime. If you polish this blade i believe you will ruin the surface.
Care and maintenance of keris is something which may take at least a little time to learn and understand. Being very new to the keris world i would recommend that you proceed with any form of restoration, or even conservation, with time and caution. This blade has been around for a while. I suggest that you don't rush to do anything as a wrong step might not only damage the physical blade, but the spirit and energy that you currently say you feel from this particular keris.

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 08:29 PM

Thank you all!

I thought that 'bambu' might be the wood but wanted to make sure. A lot of products these days use curious spellings for their names. I'm not in a rush. I will hold off on restoring the scabbard and buying the glue and dye. If I really need bamboo I will definitely wait until I visit the Philippines again to restore the scabbard. The wood is free and fresh, and I will have an experienced chemist and carpenter to help.

I am excited about this all, but I'm being very careful, so don't worry! I was worried about scratching the blade so contacted a man who restored swords. He recommended a scratchless cleaner and I am using it. So far no scratches! The blade is pretty much all clean now. The pindok is a real pain, though. I will let the lime take care of it.

I'm going to buy some beer now and chill out with my kreteks. Will upload pictures when I return!

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 09:49 PM

Fit:

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 09:51 PM

Sorry, I'm still not used to using the forum. This is how the blade fits:

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 09:53 PM

This is the blade cleaned up, for the most part:

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed.
Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

Thank you! I'm still learning how to use the forum so have not been referencing who I am replying to. I know how to on my day off. A wonderful day off!

I would grow my hair and use that instead, but it takes awfully long to grow.

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I would not attempt to polish this blade. Bali blade are traditionally polished when cleaned and stained, but i believe we have already established that is is not a Bali blade (probably Lombok) and it seems clear that re-polishing has not been the rule for this blade within its lifetime. If you polish this blade i believe you will ruin the surface.
Care and maintenance of keris is something which may take at least a little time to learn and understand. Being very new to the keris world i would recommend that you proceed with any form of restoration, or even conservation, with time and caution. This blade has been around for a while. I suggest that you don't rush to do anything as a wrong step might not only damage the physical blade, but the spirit and energy that you currently say you feel from this particular keris.

Thanks! I won't polish the blade. I thought I might remove miniature specks of ugliness after the lime treatment, but I will leave it alone now.

I didn't want to put the blade immediately in lime juice. It seemed to me that the corrosion wouldn't come out even. I didn't wanted to do anything corrosive, but, man! That gunk and rust was really awful! It was deep into the ganjah!

David · 13th May 2019, 10:53 PM

Thanks for the additional photos. It doesn't look like you should have too much trouble adjusting the fit to this sheath.
The new photos reveal features that i hadn't quite noticed before, like the fullers that run almost 3/4 of the way up the blade. Frankly, the keris appears even less Lombok in these last shots. This isn't t say that it is not, but i feel like there are some Bugis influence working in there. Of course, that would not be completely out of character in Lombok i suppose. Anyway, certainly not a Bali blade. It does seem to be a nice keris regardless of its exact origins.
I hear that you are strong on traveling with this keris to the Philippines, but i personally would not consider making such a trip with it. You really do risk the chance of running into trouble whenever you cross boarders with it. If i were you i would try my best tp keep the keris in the States and do the work on your own.

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 10:59 PM

I read that warangan for staining is made from 'raw orange arsenic' and 'realgar'. I imagine what nature provides in Indonesia is similar to the Philippines.

If I stain, I don't want a heavy stain. Maybe ripened calamansi will work?

I have been into the stone hobby for a while. I will find out what this 'realgar' is and if I can find it in the Philippines. I have never heard of this stone, before.

QuisUtDeus · 14th May 2019, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for the additional photos. It doesn't look like you should have too much trouble adjusting the fit to this sheath.
The new photos reveal features that i hadn't quite noticed before, like the fullers that run almost 3/4 of the way up the blade. Frankly, the keris appears even less Lombok in these last shots. This isn't t say that it is not, but i feel like there are some Bugis influence working in there. Of course, that would not be completely out of character in Lombok i suppose. Anyway, certainly not a Bali blade. It does seem to be a nice keris regardless of its exact origins.
I hear that you are strong on traveling with this keris to the Philippines, but i personally would not consider making such a trip with it. You really do risk the chance of running into trouble whenever you cross boarders with it. If i were you i would try my best tp keep the keris in the States and do the work on your own.

I'm really happy to know that the keris is an odd piece! I am a very odd individual. Before I knew anything about kerises, luk 15 blades were the only appealing. 13 was ok. Less I didn't like at all. More than 15 looks goofy, even now. I didn't realize these things until I learned how to count the luks. Then I realized that old empus followed old numerology. 13 is actually the Creator's number: not at all evil. 7 is the midway, not evil as the Japanese see it. I see 15 as a new beginning -- a new cycle. I think I have been here many times. I think creation comes from imbalance. Perfect balance is infinity. Our limitation here is training for it.

I'm sad to see that many people use kerises for fortune and misfortune. This sort of selfishness only leads to curse. Whatever people intend through selfishness leads to nasty karma. I ask nothing. I do not meditate or pray. I work with what I'm given. I follow the clues I am given. We have everything we need to learn with -- especially without any faith. Everyone from Bill Gates to the starving child with a patient vulture nearby. I am not Muslim, but I will say, "Salaam."

It will take me time me a while to learn about Lombok, Bugis, and Bali. I really work a lot and have tens of books I haven't finished because I jump between them all. The books I will be collecting because of this forum are in a long line...

I remember from my genetic research that Sulawesi is the closest cousin. I really don't like their hilts, though.

As far as bringing blades in and out of the Philippines, I have no worry. I'm a dual citizen. I pass through a separate line to enter just like I do when I enter the U.S. I am half American but I appear to be a local mixed person and there are a lot of us. I don't carry the foreigner aura that natives spot, even in a full-blooded Filipino who has been born and raised in America. I just appear and feel like a mixed Manileno. There are hundreds of thousands. My Tagalog isn't great, but it passes for a mestizo. I actually have more trouble entering the U.S. though I've spent most of my life in it.

The blades I've carried in and out are put in 'balikbayan' boxes -- taped up in exaggeration. They aren't cut open. Just put into cargo. I've never done anything illegal and will not. Even if I wanted to, Filipinos are far too sharp to underestimate. They will catch you. They all have a sixth sense. Remember that! Very important! Don't play with Filipinos. Just be fun!

The only issues I've heard of with weapons through the airport have been of bullets that airport employees have placed in carry-on's. They can try it if they want. But they will bother the actual foreigners, Filipino-by-blood or not. If they do bother me I will call their bluff. If They take my blade I will pay their bribe, but their woe will be very bad. Filipinos, despite being Christianized, Hispanicized and Americanized, are just as superstitious as their neighbors. The old Jungle grows in their veins just the same.

I will save this wood work and staining for the Philippines. If I don't go, so be it.

I am courting the keris with Guiness and Djarum kreteks while it bathes in lime. If I don't answer later it's because I am drunk. If I do answer later it will be because I am drunk.

Salaam, Thank you, Merci, and Salamat Po!

QuisUtDeus · 14th May 2019, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed.
Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

I've developed my own coconut oil base that I use for my hair. It is seasoned like Jamaican food. Not terribly different than Indonesian, but too complex for Filipinos. Very unlike Thai. I will try it.

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2019, 01:16 AM

Yeah, you're right David, Alan was asleep and right now he's drinking coffee to help him wake up.

There are a lot of questions that seem to have been generated overnight, but there is really only one thing that needs to be attended to first, before the work on this keris can proceed.

I am going to assume that Quis wants the very best job that can be done on this wrongko , so I'm not going to advise any short-cuts, I'm going to try to provide advice that if done carefully will restore this wrongko to a better state than it was in before the damage occurred. This will take time and care.

The first thing to do is to remove the small pieces of wood that have broken away from the atasan or gambar of the wrongko. (top part of scabbard = atasan, gambar)

We do this by taking a couple of small pieces of cloth --- old handkerchiefs are good --- tearing the cloth into narrow strips, wetting those strips, squeezing excess water from them, and pushing them into the mouth of the gandar ("stem" of scabbard = gandar). We then take another couple of strips of cloth, wet them, squeeze out the excess water and wrap around the top of the gandar, over the broken pieces of wood adhering to it.

It might take anywhere between overnight and a few days for the adhesive that is holding the broken wood in place to soften sufficiently to permit it to let go of the broken wood. Check the wood every 12 hours or so, ensure that the cloth is kept damp.

When the adhesive bond softens sufficiently to release the wood, very gently free the broken pieces from the top of the gandar. At the same time carefully and gently use a small, sharp tool to remove the old adhesive, this old adhesive should be soft, so it should not be difficult to remove. You need to remove all of the old adhesive.

When the broken wood is free of the gandar and clean, and the inside mating surfaces of the atasan are clean, set everything aside for a few days and allow it to dry thoroughly.

When the pieces are dry let us have a look at the work you have done and we can move to the next step. The aim is to repair the atasan before we begin the job of re-aligning the blade and putting everything back together again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A couple of other things we can consider now.

Rick is correct, woollen yarn is the best material to use for a hilt pressure fit. We use wool because it compresses as we fit the hilt, if the yarn that we use is too hard, for instance, if it were to be cotton, we run the risk of cracking the hilt.

To return to the place of origin of this keris blade (wilahan). Lombok has a very mixed population, it was settled relatively late, the Sasaks are regarded as the original inhabitants of Lombok, the island was under the control of Majapahit, Makasar controlled it for a while, then Bali, then the Dutch, settlers from Jawa, Sumbawa, Sulawesi, Bali came into the island, and the people living there now still identify with their ethnic roots. All of this mixing of cultures is reflected in keris styles, and often in later the keris the styles become mixed. We see some pretty strange keris that have come out of Lombok.

The gandhik of this keris is a form that in Solo is regarded as being associated with the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago. The heavy topographic sculpting of the blade body that results in deep kruwingan and distinct ada-ada is something that we can find in isolated examples from several places, but in Lombok extreme expression of blade topography is relatively common.

I am inclined to accept this keris as probably being of Lombok origin because I cannot identify any alternative origin that I could rationally defend.

David's advice to leave this keris where it is now is very wise.

For many years I have sent keris to countries throughout the world, I have personally carried keris from one country to another. In recent years it has become absolutely essential to have a thorough understanding of the laws of the country that one wishes to send a keris to, or carry one to. They are universally regarded as daggers or short swords and many countries have laws that will cause a keris to be seized at its borders.

Quis, if you are determined to take this keris to the Philippines I suggest that you seek advice from the Philippine embassy in your country of residence before so doing. Then seek advice from the Customs and police in the state or province in which you live as to the legality of bringing that keris home again.

A few days ago I returned to Australia from Indonesia. Over the years I have done this journey well over 100 times. I've been travelling to and from Indonesia since 1966. I re-entered Australia through the port of Sydney, before I went to Indonesia I obtained the appropriate police documentation (form B709B) that permitted me to bring daggers into Australia. Although daggers require no licence or permit to possess in my state of residence (NSW), they are prohibited imports under federal law, the Customs officials are Australian Govt. employees and they administer federal law, so even though it is perfectly legal for me to own a dagger (or daggers) in NSW, those federal employees need a statement from the NSW police that formally states this.

Before you take your keris out of your country of residence you must have a very clear, documented understanding of the applicable laws in the country where you live and the country you wish to take it to.

In respect of realgar and arsenic and blade staining.
All realgar is not equal.
All arsenic is not equal.
It is presently very difficult to obtain good quality warangan (realgar) in Indonesia. Last week I was having a conversation with a gentleman from Madura who takes blades from Bali & Jawa to Madura for staining, and I was telling him about the benefits of using laboratory quality arsenic for staining. He immediately began to pressure me to get some for him, but this is something I am totally unable to do.

Then there is the actual staining. It took me about ten years to learn how to do a passable stain job --- yeah, OK, I'm a slow learner. However, I did not learn how to do a good stain job until after I had been taught by two master m'ranggis in Central Jawa. It is not just a matter of getting hold of some warangan, either arsenic or realgar. It takes time to learn.

To properly clean a blade we often need to combine mechanical procedure with chemical procedure. This means that we use small sharp tools such as heavy needles or miniature scrapers to mechanically remove the deep rust that the acids will not remove.

Yes, "bambu" is bamboo.
Araldite is a two part epoxy resin, I do not know the name of equivalent adhesives in other countries, but I believe a few Google searches should help identify whatever is available wherever you are.

Kretek cigarettes are even more carcinogenic than tobacco.
Visit somebody in hospital who has lost his lower jaw and a part of his throat to cancer, and has that part of himself covered by a mask in order not to horrify his visitors and you will probably never touch another cigarette, let alone a kretek, for the rest of your life. Emphysema is not much fun either, and kreteks accelerate the process.

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2019, 01:33 AM

Well Quis, it seems that you are determined to get your keris restored in the Philippines, so I wish you the very best of luck.

As to luk count, yes, this is associated with belief systems, but those belief systems are Jawa-Hindu, Bali, and Islamic Javanese.

This link will take you to a page of a paper that I published a few years ago that puts forward some ideas on how luk were originally counted and how and why they are counted differently now.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE5.html

Incidentally, coconut oil is a very poor base for fragrant keris oil, singer sewing machine oil or medicinal paraffin is far superior. Over time coconut oil will go rancid and generate a very unpleasant odour, if left on a blade for too long it will require serious solvents to remove it, and years to get rid of the stink.

QuisUtDeus · 14th May 2019, 02:52 AM

Please, and more please, allow me to digest your knowledges. I'm sure my English sounds funny, but I'm an English major who is half un-English.

I'm a mid-Western, well-spoken American. No matter where I go in the English-speaking world, I can be understood. English speaking is based on specificity. The consonants are important. We can understand each other based on consonants.

In S.E.Asia, though, it is the vowels that matter. This is what I see that foreign people don't understand. They don't understand the music. I, myself, am foreign. The difference is I can speak musically.

AEIOU

Sing what you mean!

I've read about Indonesians being indirect and disliking directness. It's exactly the same in Philippines. Sing what you want to sing! Feel the vowels. They will know what you want and how you feel. The English won't matter. The sounds you make will.

QuisUtDeus · 14th May 2019, 03:24 AM

I do want to post about smoking.

Kreteks are nothing next to McDonald's. I can run a mile as a kretek smoker. I could not as a fast-food eater when I was 20 years old.

I'm pushing 40 years old, now, and can. Food kills you.

After two long fasts, both without food, I can tell you smoke is nothing. It is less consumptive than food.

Everyone is probably confused by my writing style. None of you are wrong. I am a 38 year-old, unbabied, unmarried, handsome man. I have your logic but do not have your wear.

My karma is different than anyone else's I've met. I am as old as you all in logic but I dream like a boy.

Thank you, All!
Tim

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2019, 05:31 AM

Well Tim, I'm pleased that I can now address you as Tim rather than to continually look for you.

Your English does not read in a peculiar fashion at all, it is well constructed and clear. You definitely do not qualify for remedial classes.

As for tobacco, kreteks and food, as with all things, we tend to believe that which we wish to believe. I personally believe the current scientific evidence in respect of both food and tobacco, and of course, kreteks --- and I have very close and personal experience of a man who lost all of his face below the nose and then all of the front of his throat. This cancer was caused by smoking.

Tim, I doubt that we can generalise across all of S.E. Asia upon the importance or otherwise of vowels, consonants and other parts of speech. I am not able to comment upon languages other than Indonesian, Javanese, and to a limited extent, Balinese, but in respect of Javanese, the tendency exists for speakers to alter words in accordance with their own wishes.

Linguists regard Javanese as a non-standard language, and vowels as well as consonants can change between both areas of usage and between individuals in those areas. Much of Javanese communication is based in body language, and that which is left unsaid.

Bahasa Indonesia is a constantly developing language, and the latest development seems to be for educated --- and some not so well educated --- speakers to haphazardly mix English into the base of Bahasa Indonesia. This can make the language unintelligible to people who are not well educated, and utterly ridiculous to many people who are.

Last week I was watching a cooking show on Indonesian TV, I forget what they were cooking, but it was some sort of simple local recipe, like nasi goreng or mie goreng or similar, and the cook kept on breaking into English in his commentary. It sounded absolutely stupid. Like, there are not sufficiently adequate words in Indonesian to tell somebody how to cook fried rice? Yeah --- right!

Tim, I really do envy the fact that no matter where in the world that you go in the English speaking world, you can be understood. I'm a third generation Australian from British ancestors, and I have difficulty in being understood by some other native born Australians. Little 18 year old super market checkout girls who have never been out of inner city suburbs seem to be the ones who mostly think I'm speaking a foreign language. A broad scattering of under 25 year olds, mostly the very elegant ones, both male and female have problems with my accent. Several of my American friends have more than the average difficulty with the way I "murder their language". But if I move 100 or so miles away from the city centre I am universally understood, and I did teach English to new immigrants to Australia for a number of years. Still, to be universally understood by all speakers of the English language is something to be proud of.

David · 14th May 2019, 05:47 PM

Well gentlemen, while i do appreciate that keris cannot be discussed in a vacuum, i am afraid i have reached that point where i am going to respectfully request that we try to focus our attention away from cigarettes, fast food and personal karma and instead stick to the discussion of keris. Thank you all for your cooperation in this matter.

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2019, 10:05 PM

I thank you David, for your patience.

QuisUtDeus · 17th May 2019, 05:24 AM

Very sorry about going off topic! The beer was talking. This information has been extremely comprehensive. A new post has been made regarding oils, which was my last concern. I will start looking for some better oils immediately.

I've got a decent surface scan of the globe of keris knowledge, now. I can pick a few points of interest and start digging. Tons to go through. Mr. Jean has offerered me a copy of his books on hilts! I'm excited about it!

It is amazing how much knowledge you all have. It seems many of you are engineers. Is weaponry a common hobby with engineers? The uncle I mentioned loves his balisongs and guns. He made me a powerful nunchaku in his backyard. I'm going to give him a lovely keris for a gift.

Out of all the forums I have joined because of my hobbies, the sword forum here is easily the most educated and most able to think in 3rd person. Also, the most courteous! I'll refrain from drinking for any future posts.

Deep thanks to all!
-Tim

QuisUtDeus · 17th May 2019, 01:21 PM

There is too much to learn here. Give me time to.

Thank you, all.

I may try to rebuild. Building is fun. I am so happy with this first keris. Carving with my uncle will be fun.

Just washing is a chore. There really is a weird green color that won't go away. It sits in the pamor. It changes when I wash. It goes up and down the whole blade. It reappears after minutes of cleaning.

The rust and gunk is gone. The green light won't leave.

I've had many modern blades. Nothing is similar. They had no soul.

This soul extends 2 meters, maybe. A very light soul. Very happy.

I think it was a nasty soul, but I slept with it. "God is Good," is the saying. Until anyone understands that they are God, too, they will triumph.

David · 17th May 2019, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

Just washing is a chore. There really is a weird green color that won't go away. It sits in the pamor. It changes when I wash. It goes up and down the whole blade. It reappears after minutes of cleaning.
The rust and gunk is gone. The green light won't leave.

Tim, are you using tap water in this washing task. From my experience sometime local tap water supplies have additive in them that can affect the color of your blade after washing. Try using bottled distilled water and see if you still have the same problem.

QuisUtDeus · 22nd May 2019, 11:06 AM

David,

You know, I only drink spring water that is delivered to me by truck from 60 miles away. It seems that the keris should drink what you drink, yourself. I refuse to eat food that is not made with this water. Thank you! I will try this!

I've bought museum quality wax to preserve the blade and found it's a byproduct of petroleum exports. I certainly wouldn't want that for myself. I am terribly fond of sandalwood for my personal soaps and colognes. I will buy this oil and use that instead.

I'he found that disassembling this keris and cleaning it has been a wonderful experience. Caring for the blade personally has given it a good energy. It mirrors the energy back. There is indeed something like a sentience about it.

I want to divest more...but I'll wait awhile to do so.

I've found two interesting books from the Philippines that everyone might find useful. "The Boxer Codex" especially:

https://shop.vibalgroup.com/products...asia-softbound

It's a book of pre-colonial illustrations of traders in the Philippines. The other book is this:

https://shop.vibalgroup.com/collecti...mystical-power

It describes the supernatural beliefs of modern Filipinos. Spain couldn't destroy the prehistory of the archipelago, even with the Church. America couldn't destroy the prehistory even with the education system. You will see ancient similarities that are fully intact despite globalization that began 400 years ago.

This will be very useful to keris people.

David · 23rd May 2019, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

I've found two interesting books from the Philippines that everyone might find useful. "The Boxer Codex" especially:

https://shop.vibalgroup.com/products...asia-softbound

It's a book of pre-colonial illustrations of traders in the Philippines. The other book is this:

https://shop.vibalgroup.com/collecti...mystical-power

It describes the supernatural beliefs of modern Filipinos. Spain couldn't destroy the prehistory of the archipelago, even with the Church. America couldn't destroy the prehistory even with the education system. You will see ancient similarities that are fully intact despite globalization that began 400 years ago.

This will be very useful to keris people.

Tim, when we started this keris forum some years ago it was decided that keris would be the sole subject of this particular corner of EAAF. I would suggest that if you wish to discuss the Philippines and the history surrounding its weaponry that you take such discussion to the main Ethnographic Forum. Thanks.

La Pagaru · 24th May 2019, 03:20 AM

absolutly this keris is bugis keris,,

David · 24th May 2019, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by La Pagaru

absolutly this keris is bugis keris,,

I believe that is a distinct possibility. But from where? Bugis is very moveable feast.

A. G. Maisey · 24th May 2019, 10:34 AM

I have no problem with a Bugis influence for this keris.

The sorsoran, especially the indented gandhik and boto adeg blumbangan can be related to South Sulawesi, these features are also attributed to the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago, and the Bugis people occupied Eastern Lombok.

However, I personally do not know of Bugis keris with this very dramatic topographic treatment from South Sulawesi, or from anywhere other than Lombok.

I'd very much like to see examples of Bugis influenced keris that had this style of wilahan and that also had inarguable provenance for somewhere other than Lombok.

I know almost nothing about Bugis keris, I have never carried out research in South Sulawesi, so perhaps this style of keris can be found in South Sulawesi, or even in the Peninsula. But I do not know of examples that can illustrate this.

For me this is most likely a keris from Lombok, but most certainly we can accept Bugis influence.

13th May 2019, 09:51 PM	#38
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Sorry, I'm still not used to using the forum. This is how the blade fits: Attached Images

13th May 2019, 09:53 PM	#39
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	This is the blade cleaned up, for the most part: Attached Images

17th May 2019, 01:21 PM	#54
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	My Name is Tim There is too much to learn here. Give me time to. Thank you, all. I may try to rebuild. Building is fun. I am so happy with this first keris. Carving with my uncle will be fun. Just washing is a chore. There really is a weird green color that won't go away. It sits in the pamor. It changes when I wash. It goes up and down the whole blade. It reappears after minutes of cleaning. The rust and gunk is gone. The green light won't leave. I've had many modern blades. Nothing is similar. They had no soul. This soul extends 2 meters, maybe. A very light soul. Very happy. I think it was a nasty soul, but I slept with it. "God is Good," is the saying. Until anyone understands that they are God, too, they will triumph.

24th May 2019, 03:20 AM	#58
La Pagaru Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Indonesia Posts: 84	idetification absolutly this keris is bugis keris,,

13th May 2019, 07:16 PM	#31
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	I neglected to ask what sort of thread is ideal to reinstall the hilt? Any knotting techniques? It seems to me squareknots would do well? The old thread was really disgusting, I had to toss it. The seller must have taken his pictures after acquisition and then tucked away the blade for a long time. What sort of oils are you all using. The Indonesians members say not to use synthetics. I'm inclined to agree with them. But anything you have to say I will also listen to.

13th May 2019, 07:21 PM	#32
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed. Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

13th May 2019, 07:25 PM	#33
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	I read on the forum not to sharpen the blade. That makes me happy. It's still sharp enough, anyway. I've knicked myself a few times during cleaning. Is a very light polish a bad idea? I have Cape Cod cloths I use for my watches and jewelry. This is something I'm good at already. I'm very tactile. I can feel when I've polished off less than a mm. I'll be able to retain the pamor.

13th May 2019, 08:29 PM	#36
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Thank you all! I thought that 'bambu' might be the wood but wanted to make sure. A lot of products these days use curious spellings for their names. I'm not in a rush. I will hold off on restoring the scabbard and buying the glue and dye. If I really need bamboo I will definitely wait until I visit the Philippines again to restore the scabbard. The wood is free and fresh, and I will have an experienced chemist and carpenter to help. I am excited about this all, but I'm being very careful, so don't worry! I was worried about scratching the blade so contacted a man who restored swords. He recommended a scratchless cleaner and I am using it. So far no scratches! The blade is pretty much all clean now. The pindok is a real pain, though. I will let the lime take care of it. I'm going to buy some beer now and chill out with my kreteks. Will upload pictures when I return!

13th May 2019, 09:49 PM	#37
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Fit:

13th May 2019, 10:53 PM	#42
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Thanks for the additional photos. It doesn't look like you should have too much trouble adjusting the fit to this sheath. The new photos reveal features that i hadn't quite noticed before, like the fullers that run almost 3/4 of the way up the blade. Frankly, the keris appears even less Lombok in these last shots. This isn't t say that it is not, but i feel like there are some Bugis influence working in there. Of course, that would not be completely out of character in Lombok i suppose. Anyway, certainly not a Bali blade. It does seem to be a nice keris regardless of its exact origins. I hear that you are strong on traveling with this keris to the Philippines, but i personally would not consider making such a trip with it. You really do risk the chance of running into trouble whenever you cross boarders with it. If i were you i would try my best tp keep the keris in the States and do the work on your own.

13th May 2019, 10:59 PM	#43
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	I read that warangan for staining is made from 'raw orange arsenic' and 'realgar'. I imagine what nature provides in Indonesia is similar to the Philippines. If I stain, I don't want a heavy stain. Maybe ripened calamansi will work? I have been into the stone hobby for a while. I will find out what this 'realgar' is and if I can find it in the Philippines. I have never heard of this stone, before.

14th May 2019, 01:16 AM	#46
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Yeah, you're right David, Alan was asleep and right now he's drinking coffee to help him wake up. There are a lot of questions that seem to have been generated overnight, but there is really only one thing that needs to be attended to first, before the work on this keris can proceed. I am going to assume that Quis wants the very best job that can be done on this wrongko , so I'm not going to advise any short-cuts, I'm going to try to provide advice that if done carefully will restore this wrongko to a better state than it was in before the damage occurred. This will take time and care. The first thing to do is to remove the small pieces of wood that have broken away from the atasan or gambar of the wrongko. (top part of scabbard = atasan, gambar) We do this by taking a couple of small pieces of cloth --- old handkerchiefs are good --- tearing the cloth into narrow strips, wetting those strips, squeezing excess water from them, and pushing them into the mouth of the gandar ("stem" of scabbard = gandar). We then take another couple of strips of cloth, wet them, squeeze out the excess water and wrap around the top of the gandar, over the broken pieces of wood adhering to it. It might take anywhere between overnight and a few days for the adhesive that is holding the broken wood in place to soften sufficiently to permit it to let go of the broken wood. Check the wood every 12 hours or so, ensure that the cloth is kept damp. When the adhesive bond softens sufficiently to release the wood, very gently free the broken pieces from the top of the gandar. At the same time carefully and gently use a small, sharp tool to remove the old adhesive, this old adhesive should be soft, so it should not be difficult to remove. You need to remove all of the old adhesive. When the broken wood is free of the gandar and clean, and the inside mating surfaces of the atasan are clean, set everything aside for a few days and allow it to dry thoroughly. When the pieces are dry let us have a look at the work you have done and we can move to the next step. The aim is to repair the atasan before we begin the job of re-aligning the blade and putting everything back together again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A couple of other things we can consider now. Rick is correct, woollen yarn is the best material to use for a hilt pressure fit. We use wool because it compresses as we fit the hilt, if the yarn that we use is too hard, for instance, if it were to be cotton, we run the risk of cracking the hilt. To return to the place of origin of this keris blade (wilahan). Lombok has a very mixed population, it was settled relatively late, the Sasaks are regarded as the original inhabitants of Lombok, the island was under the control of Majapahit, Makasar controlled it for a while, then Bali, then the Dutch, settlers from Jawa, Sumbawa, Sulawesi, Bali came into the island, and the people living there now still identify with their ethnic roots. All of this mixing of cultures is reflected in keris styles, and often in later the keris the styles become mixed. We see some pretty strange keris that have come out of Lombok. The gandhik of this keris is a form that in Solo is regarded as being associated with the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago. The heavy topographic sculpting of the blade body that results in deep kruwingan and distinct ada-ada is something that we can find in isolated examples from several places, but in Lombok extreme expression of blade topography is relatively common. I am inclined to accept this keris as probably being of Lombok origin because I cannot identify any alternative origin that I could rationally defend. David's advice to leave this keris where it is now is very wise. For many years I have sent keris to countries throughout the world, I have personally carried keris from one country to another. In recent years it has become absolutely essential to have a thorough understanding of the laws of the country that one wishes to send a keris to, or carry one to. They are universally regarded as daggers or short swords and many countries have laws that will cause a keris to be seized at its borders. Quis, if you are determined to take this keris to the Philippines I suggest that you seek advice from the Philippine embassy in your country of residence before so doing. Then seek advice from the Customs and police in the state or province in which you live as to the legality of bringing that keris home again. A few days ago I returned to Australia from Indonesia. Over the years I have done this journey well over 100 times. I've been travelling to and from Indonesia since 1966. I re-entered Australia through the port of Sydney, before I went to Indonesia I obtained the appropriate police documentation (form B709B) that permitted me to bring daggers into Australia. Although daggers require no licence or permit to possess in my state of residence (NSW), they are prohibited imports under federal law, the Customs officials are Australian Govt. employees and they administer federal law, so even though it is perfectly legal for me to own a dagger (or daggers) in NSW, those federal employees need a statement from the NSW police that formally states this. Before you take your keris out of your country of residence you must have a very clear, documented understanding of the applicable laws in the country where you live and the country you wish to take it to. In respect of realgar and arsenic and blade staining. All realgar is not equal. All arsenic is not equal. It is presently very difficult to obtain good quality warangan (realgar) in Indonesia. Last week I was having a conversation with a gentleman from Madura who takes blades from Bali & Jawa to Madura for staining, and I was telling him about the benefits of using laboratory quality arsenic for staining. He immediately began to pressure me to get some for him, but this is something I am totally unable to do. Then there is the actual staining. It took me about ten years to learn how to do a passable stain job --- yeah, OK, I'm a slow learner. However, I did not learn how to do a good stain job until after I had been taught by two master m'ranggis in Central Jawa. It is not just a matter of getting hold of some warangan, either arsenic or realgar. It takes time to learn. To properly clean a blade we often need to combine mechanical procedure with chemical procedure. This means that we use small sharp tools such as heavy needles or miniature scrapers to mechanically remove the deep rust that the acids will not remove. Yes, "bambu" is bamboo. Araldite is a two part epoxy resin, I do not know the name of equivalent adhesives in other countries, but I believe a few Google searches should help identify whatever is available wherever you are. Kretek cigarettes are even more carcinogenic than tobacco. Visit somebody in hospital who has lost his lower jaw and a part of his throat to cancer, and has that part of himself covered by a mask in order not to horrify his visitors and you will probably never touch another cigarette, let alone a kretek, for the rest of your life. Emphysema is not much fun either, and kreteks accelerate the process.

14th May 2019, 01:33 AM	#47
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Well Quis, it seems that you are determined to get your keris restored in the Philippines, so I wish you the very best of luck. As to luk count, yes, this is associated with belief systems, but those belief systems are Jawa-Hindu, Bali, and Islamic Javanese. This link will take you to a page of a paper that I published a few years ago that puts forward some ideas on how luk were originally counted and how and why they are counted differently now. http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE5.html Incidentally, coconut oil is a very poor base for fragrant keris oil, singer sewing machine oil or medicinal paraffin is far superior. Over time coconut oil will go rancid and generate a very unpleasant odour, if left on a blade for too long it will require serious solvents to remove it, and years to get rid of the stink.

14th May 2019, 02:52 AM	#48
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Please, and more please, allow me to digest your knowledges. I'm sure my English sounds funny, but I'm an English major who is half un-English. I'm a mid-Western, well-spoken American. No matter where I go in the English-speaking world, I can be understood. English speaking is based on specificity. The consonants are important. We can understand each other based on consonants. In S.E.Asia, though, it is the vowels that matter. This is what I see that foreign people don't understand. They don't understand the music. I, myself, am foreign. The difference is I can speak musically. AEIOU Sing what you mean! I've read about Indonesians being indirect and disliking directness. It's exactly the same in Philippines. Sing what you want to sing! Feel the vowels. They will know what you want and how you feel. The English won't matter. The sounds you make will.

14th May 2019, 03:24 AM	#49
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	I do want to post about smoking. Kreteks are nothing next to McDonald's. I can run a mile as a kretek smoker. I could not as a fast-food eater when I was 20 years old. I'm pushing 40 years old, now, and can. Food kills you. After two long fasts, both without food, I can tell you smoke is nothing. It is less consumptive than food. Everyone is probably confused by my writing style. None of you are wrong. I am a 38 year-old, unbabied, unmarried, handsome man. I have your logic but do not have your wear. My karma is different than anyone else's I've met. I am as old as you all in logic but I dream like a boy. Thank you, All! Tim

14th May 2019, 05:31 AM	#50
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Well Tim, I'm pleased that I can now address you as Tim rather than to continually look for you. Your English does not read in a peculiar fashion at all, it is well constructed and clear. You definitely do not qualify for remedial classes. As for tobacco, kreteks and food, as with all things, we tend to believe that which we wish to believe. I personally believe the current scientific evidence in respect of both food and tobacco, and of course, kreteks --- and I have very close and personal experience of a man who lost all of his face below the nose and then all of the front of his throat. This cancer was caused by smoking. Tim, I doubt that we can generalise across all of S.E. Asia upon the importance or otherwise of vowels, consonants and other parts of speech. I am not able to comment upon languages other than Indonesian, Javanese, and to a limited extent, Balinese, but in respect of Javanese, the tendency exists for speakers to alter words in accordance with their own wishes. Linguists regard Javanese as a non-standard language, and vowels as well as consonants can change between both areas of usage and between individuals in those areas. Much of Javanese communication is based in body language, and that which is left unsaid. Bahasa Indonesia is a constantly developing language, and the latest development seems to be for educated --- and some not so well educated --- speakers to haphazardly mix English into the base of Bahasa Indonesia. This can make the language unintelligible to people who are not well educated, and utterly ridiculous to many people who are. Last week I was watching a cooking show on Indonesian TV, I forget what they were cooking, but it was some sort of simple local recipe, like nasi goreng or mie goreng or similar, and the cook kept on breaking into English in his commentary. It sounded absolutely stupid. Like, there are not sufficiently adequate words in Indonesian to tell somebody how to cook fried rice? Yeah --- right! Tim, I really do envy the fact that no matter where in the world that you go in the English speaking world, you can be understood. I'm a third generation Australian from British ancestors, and I have difficulty in being understood by some other native born Australians. Little 18 year old super market checkout girls who have never been out of inner city suburbs seem to be the ones who mostly think I'm speaking a foreign language. A broad scattering of under 25 year olds, mostly the very elegant ones, both male and female have problems with my accent. Several of my American friends have more than the average difficulty with the way I "murder their language". But if I move 100 or so miles away from the city centre I am universally understood, and I did teach English to new immigrants to Australia for a number of years. Still, to be universally understood by all speakers of the English language is something to be proud of.

14th May 2019, 05:47 PM	#51
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Well gentlemen, while i do appreciate that keris cannot be discussed in a vacuum, i am afraid i have reached that point where i am going to respectfully request that we try to focus our attention away from cigarettes, fast food and personal karma and instead stick to the discussion of keris. Thank you all for your cooperation in this matter.

14th May 2019, 10:05 PM	#52
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	I thank you David, for your patience.

17th May 2019, 05:24 AM	#53
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Very sorry about going off topic! The beer was talking. This information has been extremely comprehensive. A new post has been made regarding oils, which was my last concern. I will start looking for some better oils immediately. I've got a decent surface scan of the globe of keris knowledge, now. I can pick a few points of interest and start digging. Tons to go through. Mr. Jean has offerered me a copy of his books on hilts! I'm excited about it! It is amazing how much knowledge you all have. It seems many of you are engineers. Is weaponry a common hobby with engineers? The uncle I mentioned loves his balisongs and guns. He made me a powerful nunchaku in his backyard. I'm going to give him a lovely keris for a gift. Out of all the forums I have joined because of my hobbies, the sword forum here is easily the most educated and most able to think in 3rd person. Also, the most courteous! I'll refrain from drinking for any future posts. Deep thanks to all! -Tim

22nd May 2019, 11:06 AM	#56
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	David, You know, I only drink spring water that is delivered to me by truck from 60 miles away. It seems that the keris should drink what you drink, yourself. I refuse to eat food that is not made with this water. Thank you! I will try this! I've bought museum quality wax to preserve the blade and found it's a byproduct of petroleum exports. I certainly wouldn't want that for myself. I am terribly fond of sandalwood for my personal soaps and colognes. I will buy this oil and use that instead. I'he found that disassembling this keris and cleaning it has been a wonderful experience. Caring for the blade personally has given it a good energy. It mirrors the energy back. There is indeed something like a sentience about it. I want to divest more...but I'll wait awhile to do so. I've found two interesting books from the Philippines that everyone might find useful. "The Boxer Codex" especially: https://shop.vibalgroup.com/products...asia-softbound It's a book of pre-colonial illustrations of traders in the Philippines. The other book is this: https://shop.vibalgroup.com/collecti...mystical-power It describes the supernatural beliefs of modern Filipinos. Spain couldn't destroy the prehistory of the archipelago, even with the Church. America couldn't destroy the prehistory even with the education system. You will see ancient similarities that are fully intact despite globalization that began 400 years ago. This will be very useful to keris people.

24th May 2019, 10:34 AM	#60
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	I have no problem with a Bugis influence for this keris. The sorsoran, especially the indented gandhik and boto adeg blumbangan can be related to South Sulawesi, these features are also attributed to the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago, and the Bugis people occupied Eastern Lombok. However, I personally do not know of Bugis keris with this very dramatic topographic treatment from South Sulawesi, or from anywhere other than Lombok. I'd very much like to see examples of Bugis influenced keris that had this style of wilahan and that also had inarguable provenance for somewhere other than Lombok. I know almost nothing about Bugis keris, I have never carried out research in South Sulawesi, so perhaps this style of keris can be found in South Sulawesi, or even in the Peninsula. But I do not know of examples that can illustrate this. For me this is most likely a keris from Lombok, but most certainly we can accept Bugis influence.