Use of swords in American Indian tribes - Page 2

KuKulzA28 · 27th April 2017, 08:31 PM

Interesting thread... I have definitely seen some of these old photos, very cool to speculate about the journeys some of these swords/status symbols must have been taken on.

Side-note: Sword-play in a sense was not unknown in North America, the so-called atassa warclub of the Southeast was heavily used and was described as a wooden falchion. The Aztecs and their neighbors are famous for using what was essentially an obsidian edged wooden sword - they called it the macuahuitl. Similarly the Calusa people of Florida were known to use shark-tooth swords. Carib/Kali'na peoples of northern South America often replaced their bows and clubs with muskets and cutlasses. The Tupian peoples on the coast of today's Brazil traded for swords with European allies.. what might today be called side-swords and longswords. In South America's Guianas and Amazon there are a variety of bladed/paddle clubs which, as much as possible for a club, have sword-like qualities because of the edge. But it is interesting to note that in North America, while there was the indigenous atassa, it seems swords weren't as heavily traded for and used in warfare as other items.

colin henshaw · 3rd May 2017, 10:06 AM

Nice picture from the internet...

kronckew · 8th August 2017, 05:45 PM

re:fetterman massacre sword:

recently sold, more details on the story behind it and better pictures.
LINK

Tim Simmons · 10th August 2017, 05:27 PM

Somebody paid a small fortune with no real provenance. Would this type of sword be carried by a the relatively low in rank officers in the Fretterman incident?

kronckew · 10th August 2017, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Somebody paid a small fortune with no real provenance. Would this type of sword be carried by a the relatively low in rank officers in the Fretterman incident?

i would have left it at home in my quarters and wore something a bit more practical. they do find a lot of rather ornate sword parts on battlefields over here, so some ossifers might when they think they're gonna have a walk over and media to show off for. bit like patton and is revolvers. of course he DID have a lot of walk overs...but so did custer untill the last one wasn't. he of course told his men to leave their sabres behind along with the gatlings as they wouldn't need them. it was gonna be a walk over...

unusual for a lower ranking officer to be presented with it, he must have enjoyed carrying it and showing off. all in all i'd not pay all that moola without a durn good provenance and lots of documentation.

i could see an NDN who captured it cutting off the guard to suit him. bit like the japanese did to the heihos.

Rick · 10th August 2017, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

some ossifers might when they think they're gonna have a walk over and media to show off for. bit like patton and is revolvers.

George did actually use his revolver in close combat during the Pancho Villa expedition (he wounded three men). He only had one at the time and the experience is what prompted him to start carrying two.

ParikiMark · 29th February 2020, 07:12 AM

Fascinating thread! I learned a lot (which is why I joined this forum).

I could use some help identifying the sword in this photograph of Crooked Hand, a Pawnee Indian. Someone suggested it was a Model 1832 Foot Artillery Sword, which seems plausible. I have another photograph of an Otoe Indian holding a similar sword. I am curious to when and how this model made its way to Nebraska.

The cavalry saber is more common among Plains Indians, which is why this particular model intrigues me. Any comments and help you can furnish me is greatly appreciated!!!

kronckew · 1st March 2020, 08:29 AM

The French, and by emulation, quite a few other admirers in Europe used a gladius style sword for their non-cavalry foot sloggers, They came in a variety of blade styles with different fullering schemes. I even have one with a double edged yataghan style blade of flattened diamond x-section and no fullers. anyhow, the USA model had rather distinct fullering and a tapering waist blade shape, unlike the Native American's photos which appear to have a straight sided unfullered flat blade profile, more in keeping with a French version. I don't recall the Brits using them tho*. the French settlers in Canada and the Louisiana territories the US aquired may have had french 'gladii' with them. the french used them from 1771 thru about 1870. (the 1771 was a rather nicer eagle shaped grip one.) they were not very practical as weapons as the gladius was designed for use with a shield in close formation. Even roman cavalry used a longer sword called a 'spatha' and so did many infantry after the 1st century a.d.

*- It appears the British Land Transport Corps carried them too, their model looks a lot like the ones in the photo too, and very French, who they likely copied. So, Canada remains a possible source of these Native American 'long knives'. Shame the pics are a bit degraded & do not show more details of the cast brass grips.

Brit sword, 1855 Land Transport model:

3rd May 2017, 10:06 AM	#32
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Nice picture from the internet... Attached Images

29th February 2020, 07:12 AM	#37
ParikiMark Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Doha, Qatar Posts: 4	Crooked Hand's Sword (Pawnee) Fascinating thread! I learned a lot (which is why I joined this forum). I could use some help identifying the sword in this photograph of Crooked Hand, a Pawnee Indian. Someone suggested it was a Model 1832 Foot Artillery Sword, which seems plausible. I have another photograph of an Otoe Indian holding a similar sword. I am curious to when and how this model made its way to Nebraska. The cavalry saber is more common among Plains Indians, which is why this particular model intrigues me. Any comments and help you can furnish me is greatly appreciated!!! Attached Images

1st March 2020, 08:29 AM	#38
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	The French, and by emulation, quite a few other admirers in Europe used a gladius style sword for their non-cavalry foot sloggers, They came in a variety of blade styles with different fullering schemes. I even have one with a double edged yataghan style blade of flattened diamond x-section and no fullers. anyhow, the USA model had rather distinct fullering and a tapering waist blade shape, unlike the Native American's photos which appear to have a straight sided unfullered flat blade profile, more in keeping with a French version. I don't recall the Brits using them tho. the French settlers in Canada and the Louisiana territories the US aquired may have had french 'gladii' with them. the french used them from 1771 thru about 1870. (the 1771 was a rather nicer eagle shaped grip one.) they were not very practical as weapons as the gladius was designed for use with a shield in close formation. Even roman cavalry used a longer sword called a 'spatha' and so did many infantry after the 1st century a.d. - It appears the British Land Transport Corps carried them too, their model looks a lot like the ones in the photo too, and very French, who they likely copied. So, Canada remains a possible source of these Native American 'long knives'. Shame the pics are a bit degraded & do not show more details of the cast brass grips. Brit sword, 1855 Land Transport model: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 1st March 2020 at 08:46 AM.

27th April 2017, 08:31 PM	#31
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Interesting thread... I have definitely seen some of these old photos, very cool to speculate about the journeys some of these swords/status symbols must have been taken on. Side-note: Sword-play in a sense was not unknown in North America, the so-called atassa warclub of the Southeast was heavily used and was described as a wooden falchion. The Aztecs and their neighbors are famous for using what was essentially an obsidian edged wooden sword - they called it the macuahuitl. Similarly the Calusa people of Florida were known to use shark-tooth swords. Carib/Kali'na peoples of northern South America often replaced their bows and clubs with muskets and cutlasses. The Tupian peoples on the coast of today's Brazil traded for swords with European allies.. what might today be called side-swords and longswords. In South America's Guianas and Amazon there are a variety of bladed/paddle clubs which, as much as possible for a club, have sword-like qualities because of the edge. But it is interesting to note that in North America, while there was the indigenous atassa, it seems swords weren't as heavily traded for and used in warfare as other items.

8th August 2017, 05:45 PM	#33
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	re:fetterman massacre sword: recently sold, more details on the story behind it and better pictures. LINK

10th August 2017, 05:27 PM	#34
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Somebody paid a small fortune with no real provenance. Would this type of sword be carried by a the relatively low in rank officers in the Fretterman incident?