Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art - Page 2

ariel · 7th February 2016, 06:48 PM

Jim pre-empted my comment re. Oliver's texts for the Wagner's collection book, but I must add my personal view.

There are several " personal collection" books on the market. Tirri's was a pioneering one, followed by (also his) book on African arms.

Those were followed by several "vanity" books: personal collections of undistinguished and uninteresting examples, mostly acquired in bulk within 3-5 years prior to their publication. Some ( more financially established) owners even commissioned review articles on superficially-related topics from "guns for hire" authors just to give their catalogues a whiff of academicity.

Wagner/Pinchot book is not even in the same universe. It shows carefully-selected outstanding examples of Oriental weaponry that would not be out of place in a major museum.

But for me, Oliver's comments and descriptions are the main attraction. The book is small, the space was limited, but he managed to compress his hard-earned and deep knowledge literally into 3-5 lines per object. If one reads these comments carefully, one finds a wealth of very clever and sophisticated points and even more very wise hints. He managed to open a new window, an unexpected angle of observation on so many objects that I thought I knew well... and, obviously, did not, never thinking about Oliver's twists of discussing them! I cannot recommend it strongly enough!

The Metropolitan book is yet another animal: it is a heavy-duty academic treatise, with references, comparisons with examples from the places I never heard about, attention to the minor details of decoration, inscriptions, historical context, etc, etc.

Mahratt did not like the uncertainty in the attribution of a cuirass ( Persia or India?) and a helmet ( Russia or Iran?). (This is not a critique of him, just an example.) I read these sections carefully, and was astonished to see the humility and the restraint of the authors, who are seasoned arms historians and world-class professionals. It might have been so easy for them to express a "yes or no" opinion: after all, they are THE experts! Instead they went into analysis of obscure details, minor points, iconography and history to establish the attribution point beyond which their writing would cross the line into fantasy or the " my way or highway" conclusions.

This is a hard book to read, and its worth for a beginning collector is limited. But for those who have years of reading, examining, discussing and thinking about Islamic Arms and Armour it will be an indispensable source of postgraduate education.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th February 2016, 07:15 PM

Jim and Ariel - well said.
I too find this a valuable book for collectors, and it is the first one telling about the museums Oriental weapons.

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2016, 08:04 PM

Excellent review and comments on the MET book Ariel!! and especially well noted comments concerning Oliver Pinchot and again , his unsurpassed knowledge, and Jens thank you for your kind note.

It is great to have reviews of published books and of course comments on the authors, however important that in reviewing these that these are personal views and opinions. What is profoundly superfluous and not good form is the critique of others who are noting their views on the subject matter.

Despite that particular 'detour' I am anxious to get this book! I get to make my own judgements on whether the comments of critics are pertinent or not

but these reviews sound pretty good.

Kubur · 7th February 2016, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent review and comments on the MET book Ariel!! and especially well noted comments concerning Oliver Pinchot and again , his unsurpassed knowledge, and Jens thank you for your kind note.

It is great to have reviews of published books and of course comments on the authors, however important that in reviewing these that these are personal views and opinions. What is profoundly superfluous and not good form is the critique of others who are noting their views on the subject matter.

Despite that particular 'detour' I am anxious to get this book! I get to make my own judgements on whether the comments of critics are pertinent or not

but these reviews sound pretty good.

I don't think that you got my point. I have Pinchot's catalogue, its a nice and useful book. But the author is not the same caliber than Alexander. One is a researcher, the other is a collector and a dealer like a lot of members on this forum. Alexander can read Arabic or Persian, I think you understand the difference... BUT I have to admit that a lot of collectors and dealers are much more competent than a lot of curators. It's a complicated situation and I do not think that you or me are competent to judge if people are good or bad. And it was not my intention to let you think that. By the way, Alexander mentions page 12 that foreign terms have been kept to a minimum...

ariel · 8th February 2016, 12:02 AM

Having known Oliver Pinchot for many years , I can assure you that he is an extremely competent person when Islamic weapons are considered.

Jim McDougall · 8th February 2016, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I don't think that you got my point. I have Pinchot's catalogue, its a nice and useful book. But the author is not the same caliber than Alexander. One is a researcher, the other is a collector and a dealer like a lot of members on this forum. Alexander can read Arabic or Persian, I think you understand the difference... BUT I have to admit that a lot of collectors and dealers are much more competent than a lot of curators. It's a complicated situation and I do not think that you or me are competent to judge if people are good or bad. And it was not my intention to let you think that. By the way, Alexander mentions page 12 that foreign terms have been kept to a minimum...

Thank you Kubur, I didn't realize you were making a point, and certainly you can be the judge of your own competence, not mine, so I would suggest you revise that comment. Actually many of your posts suggest you have reasonable exposure to our subject, and I very much agree with many of your statements especially regarding the MET, and of course Mr. Alexander.
I can say this as I have considerable regard for him and the many works he has produced which have been most helpful in my own research these past decades.

I don't agree with your comment comparing Mr, Alexander and Oliver Pinchot, especially that Oliver is just a dealer and collector and not a researcher. While I do not know Mr Alexander, I have known Oliver for well over 20 years, and often had the opportunity to work with him on many aspects of weapons being researched. Actually he is quite fluent in reading and writing Arabic and Turkish and has as far as I know good knowledge of Persian as well as many other languages. He is a brilliant scholar and researcher who has consulted with many authors and of course other collectors and dealers in advanced capacity.

I think it is important to remember that curators in museums are often restricted by parameters which place demands in other administrative duties over the research which they would be more than delighted to attend to if having the time.
I am not sure if you have authored anything yourself, but if you have or plan to you will appreciate what my point was and then we will have each understood that of each other. I always have great respect for authors, and the work they put into what they publish. I am under the impression that we both agree on that.

estcrh · 8th February 2016, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The Metropolitan book is yet another animal: it is a heavy-duty academic treatise, with references, comparisons with examples from the places I never heard about, attention to the minor details of decoration, inscriptions, historical context, etc, etc.

Ariel, that is exactly what I wanted to hear from someone, now that is not a wishy-washy recommendion, you have me interested, thanks.

ALEX · 8th February 2016, 03:50 PM

In addition to what Jim and Ariel said, I too disagree with the idea of comparing different authors, especially well-known and respected ones, and separating them into researcher/dealer category. The same goes for generalizing curator vs dealer level of knowledge. There's no point in it.
Not many people realize the extent of Oliver's knowledge. I wish I'd have a fraction of it. As for his last book, it is a coverage of collection by design, and Oliver did a great job, much better than most of us would be able to

rand · 12th February 2016, 05:02 PM

Opening the book for the first time immediately saw quality photo's of identified early chain mail armor with close-up images of links showing construction. This alone made the book worth getting as their are few images of these available.

When the Met starts including the back side photo's of armor their value go's up a notch. The Italian arms and armor started doing this long ago and that is one of the reasons those books carry value.

Referring to an educational system opinion having higher value than a collectors determination is short sighted as long as the collectors opinion is collaberated by research that can be scrutinized the same way the edu. opinion can be scrutinized.

In many ways the collector can have a more trained eye because they purchase objects and in doing so will take very close inspections to identify an object. I would rate a long term edu. professor at the same level as a long time serious collector and have seen from experience that there is a keen interest to share information both ways.

rand

estcrh · 12th February 2016, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Opening the book for the first time immediately saw quality photo's of identified early chain mail armor with close-up images of links showing construction. This alone made the book worth getting as their are few images of these available.

Rand, anyone can show photos of mail, unless it is properly photographed (the outside and inside of the links) identified and described it will not be to helpful. Much of the Mets mail is not properly described (round riveted, wedge riveted, alternating rows of solid and riveted links etc) and I have doubts about some of their descriptions, I hope this book does a better job.

There are actually a lot of close up images of mail armor from all ages and cultures available, here are some links with more mail armor images than anywere else in the world.

Indo-Persian mail.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...an-mail-armor/

Japanese mail.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...-armor-kusari/

European mail.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...an-mail-armor/

Jens Nordlunde · 12th February 2016, 10:38 PM

Nice to 'see' you again rand:-) - it has been a while.
As you have seen the forum has changed a lot since the 'old' days, so many with a lot of knowledge have left, and new ones have turned up.

7th February 2016, 06:48 PM	#31
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim pre-empted my comment re. Oliver's texts for the Wagner's collection book, but I must add my personal view. There are several " personal collection" books on the market. Tirri's was a pioneering one, followed by (also his) book on African arms. Those were followed by several "vanity" books: personal collections of undistinguished and uninteresting examples, mostly acquired in bulk within 3-5 years prior to their publication. Some ( more financially established) owners even commissioned review articles on superficially-related topics from "guns for hire" authors just to give their catalogues a whiff of academicity. Wagner/Pinchot book is not even in the same universe. It shows carefully-selected outstanding examples of Oriental weaponry that would not be out of place in a major museum. But for me, Oliver's comments and descriptions are the main attraction. The book is small, the space was limited, but he managed to compress his hard-earned and deep knowledge literally into 3-5 lines per object. If one reads these comments carefully, one finds a wealth of very clever and sophisticated points and even more very wise hints. He managed to open a new window, an unexpected angle of observation on so many objects that I thought I knew well... and, obviously, did not, never thinking about Oliver's twists of discussing them! I cannot recommend it strongly enough! The Metropolitan book is yet another animal: it is a heavy-duty academic treatise, with references, comparisons with examples from the places I never heard about, attention to the minor details of decoration, inscriptions, historical context, etc, etc. Mahratt did not like the uncertainty in the attribution of a cuirass ( Persia or India?) and a helmet ( Russia or Iran?). (This is not a critique of him, just an example.) I read these sections carefully, and was astonished to see the humility and the restraint of the authors, who are seasoned arms historians and world-class professionals. It might have been so easy for them to express a "yes or no" opinion: after all, they are THE experts! Instead they went into analysis of obscure details, minor points, iconography and history to establish the attribution point beyond which their writing would cross the line into fantasy or the " my way or highway" conclusions. This is a hard book to read, and its worth for a beginning collector is limited. But for those who have years of reading, examining, discussing and thinking about Islamic Arms and Armour it will be an indispensable source of postgraduate education. Last edited by ariel; 7th February 2016 at 08:19 PM.

12th February 2016, 05:02 PM	#39
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Met Islamic Arms and Armor book Opening the book for the first time immediately saw quality photo's of identified early chain mail armor with close-up images of links showing construction. This alone made the book worth getting as their are few images of these available. When the Met starts including the back side photo's of armor their value go's up a notch. The Italian arms and armor started doing this long ago and that is one of the reasons those books carry value. Referring to an educational system opinion having higher value than a collectors determination is short sighted as long as the collectors opinion is collaberated by research that can be scrutinized the same way the edu. opinion can be scrutinized. In many ways the collector can have a more trained eye because they purchase objects and in doing so will take very close inspections to identify an object. I would rate a long term edu. professor at the same level as a long time serious collector and have seen from experience that there is a keen interest to share information both ways. rand

7th February 2016, 07:15 PM	#32
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim and Ariel - well said. I too find this a valuable book for collectors, and it is the first one telling about the museums Oriental weapons.

7th February 2016, 08:04 PM	#33
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Excellent review and comments on the MET book Ariel!! and especially well noted comments concerning Oliver Pinchot and again , his unsurpassed knowledge, and Jens thank you for your kind note. It is great to have reviews of published books and of course comments on the authors, however important that in reviewing these that these are personal views and opinions. What is profoundly superfluous and not good form is the critique of others who are noting their views on the subject matter. Despite that particular 'detour' I am anxious to get this book! I get to make my own judgements on whether the comments of critics are pertinent or not but these reviews sound pretty good.

8th February 2016, 12:02 AM	#35
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Having known Oliver Pinchot for many years , I can assure you that he is an extremely competent person when Islamic weapons are considered.

8th February 2016, 03:50 PM	#38
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	In addition to what Jim and Ariel said, I too disagree with the idea of comparing different authors, especially well-known and respected ones, and separating them into researcher/dealer category. The same goes for generalizing curator vs dealer level of knowledge. There's no point in it. Not many people realize the extent of Oliver's knowledge. I wish I'd have a fraction of it. As for his last book, it is a coverage of collection by design, and Oliver did a great job, much better than most of us would be able to

12th February 2016, 10:38 PM	#41
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nice to 'see' you again rand:-) - it has been a while. As you have seen the forum has changed a lot since the 'old' days, so many with a lot of knowledge have left, and new ones have turned up.