Balinese/Lombok pedang

[David]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

^^^ Yeah, what he said. It is my hope that these forums are a learning experience and while these are not exactly the center of my collecting experience i have a great interest with other weapons of the area and would love to understand what the difference are between Sumatran and Lombak versions of these pedangs. Michael, if you are able to put up comparative photos of hilts from these distinct origins that would be awesome, thanks.

[A. G. Maisey]

In the 1950's these swords were usually given by collectors and British dealers as either "Java" or "Malaya".

I do not believe that either of these attributions were necessarily correct, but I think probably most people accepted this at the time.

In recent years I think most collectors attribute this sword type to Sumatera, I don't know exactly where in Sumatera, but I've read a Palembang attribution somewhere.

In this Forum I have seen attributions of Lombok, and other places in the Indonesian Archipelago.

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

If anybody ever reaches the position of being able to give a verifiable point of geographic origin for this type of sword, as distinct from an opinion, I think it might be possible that we find the style originating in Sumatera and travelling as items of trade to other areas within the Archipelago. This would be pretty recent trade I think, perhaps within the last 200 years. These are very attractive swords and would very probably have been appreciated by many people across the Archipelago.

By "geographic point of origin" my meaning is that the sword was made in an identifiable place and used or worn there.

In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

[VVV]

I am also of the opinion that this kind of Pedang originated around Palembang. A case in point is that of those found in museums most often they have been collected in expeditions from that region. They are also found in other areas, most often Lombok but also in coastal South Borneo (among the Malays) and in Peninsular Malaysia. Local production and variations of a popular blade is a phenomenon also found for other weapons of this region.

To not the let this thread drift too far away I would prefer that Maurice first gets his translation, and we discuss the age and purpose of adding Qur'anic quotes on the blade.
Maybe after that we can add other reference pictures and discuss hilt and blade variations among the different regions.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, my remarks on calligraphic enhancement of blades is directed only at the particular type of calligraphic enhancement that we can see on this blade.

I believe most of us would be aware that it was not unusual for blades to bear other calligraphic enhancements that date from much earlier periods and which were placed on the blades for purposes other than the one I have mentioned.

However, I will make this further comment. Over the years I have often referred these blades to people I know in Solo for translation. One of these people is a very learned man who is able to read a number of different script variations. It is seldom that the inscriptions found on blades that I have personally handled are written accurately, in that sometimes the actual quotation will be wrong, at at other times the letters used to write the quotation will be formed in a way that makes a nonsense of what has been intended to be written. Sometimes the person to whom I have turned for assistance is able to guess what has been intended, at other times the opinion is that whoever put the inscription on the blade did not really know how to write and was putting on symbols that simply looked like letters to somebody who also could not read.

As to how a discussion in this Forum progresses, perhaps I am in error, but I have been under the impression that those of us who contribute to a discussion may contribute as we see fit, not wait until we are given some oblique cue that lets us know we are now permitted to say that which we wish to say.

I do most sincerely hope that Maurice will receive an accurate translation of the letters on his blade, but I do not believe that it is in anybody's best interests for us to sit on our keyboards and wait until this event occurs.

Regarding production of these swords in places other than original point of origin, yes, it is entirely possible that the style could be produced in places other than the place where it originated, but in the identification of other places where such swords might have been made I feel it might be quite difficult at this point in time to nail down a variation to a particular location. It is entirely possible that all apparent stylistic variation could in fact be quality variation, and the swords may all have been manufactured in the same area by different people.

I've spent a bit of time going through my references and quite frankly I cannot find very much at all on this particular type of sword. I would welcome the identification of reliable references by those who are better informed than I in respect of these particular swords.

[VVV]

Alan,

Your comments on talismanic writing etc. is indeed a well known and quite universal phenomenon both in the Muslim (Arabic) as well as the Catholic (Latin) periphery. Quite often the one actually making the inlay was not also a highly learned religious scholar.
My comment on in what order to answer all the different questions brought up in this thread is of course only how I prefer to respond to it myself (out of respect for Maurice's original question that started this thread) and only relevant for how I choose to participate in this discussion.

Michael

[Sajen]

Hi Maurice,

first, sorry about my late reply to your very interesting pedang. A shame that the handle is broken. Here some of my thoughts about it. I also think that it is from Lombok, me was told in Indonesia that this pedang with this type of handle coming from Lombok, have also a look to this thread, special #16: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang. In the beginning of the 90ties last century you can find a lot of this pedangs in Bali antique shops and every time it was told they are from Lombok. Of course this isn't a guarantee that it is indeed like this.
I am with you that the inlays are done well, this could be a indication that they are old. I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example. But what I remember well, the blade was like yours very black stained. This is IMHO done to highlight the silver inlays. So I don't think that the black surface is old patina. This could be done in old times but as well recently. Like Alan I have seen blades with such inlays where I have been sure that this inlays are added for a better selling-price purpose but on the other hand I think to have seen blades with inlays which have been early collected but can't remember where.

Sorry that I am not able to give you new informations.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

Charles, ofcourse Michael was joking about that, as you could see in the wink at the end of it ( ;-) ).
Here you see the photo which Michael was referring to, and indeed mentioned Lombok in it, though it was a recent tag for sure...

I also would like to know more about the differences of the handles, but this is the only one I have, so I have no comparison to post, only what everyone could see in the former threads..

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

One connection could be the Dutch, who were present and travelling between the Indonesian archipellago isles in very early days and for long time, and also often there were native people with them on their travels to other islands. From here we allready would have a link, and therefore a connection of intercultural "pollination" and "copying" of for instance swords....

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

Therefore we need an explanation of the text by somebody.
From there we could say more about it. If somebody would use a "mock calligraphic ornamentation", I don't think it would be done so intensive and so fine as on this pedang.
If you have seen often "this type of calligraphic ornamentations" as you mentions, I would like you to post some images here for comparison if possible.
I also have images from pedangs (of other collections, and therefore not propriate to post here), of which I'm sure it's definately not as old and finely done as mine. Also it's done much more crudely, and not so intensively.
In comparison with the one in this thread, I never have seen a pedang ornamented as labour-intensive and decoratively done as this one. So I doubt it's only supposed to be a "mock calligraphy".
But this is only from my common sense and I would love to know more and it might be when we have a translation...

Thanks for your input!

Maurice

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by VVV

Most important, the original collection tag said Lombok on it. ;-)
Otherwise, the hilt is more square than the ones usually seen from Sumatra (but often seen on Lombok) and the blade has fullers. On Lombok the Sasak are Muslim.

If you look at the lower part of the hilt there is a beak and a bird face (Garuda). I suspect that this also is a Lombok-feature.
Maybe Maurice can bring it out better with new pictures?

Michael

Finally found some time of taking some pictures Michael!
Indeed I now see a kind of bird in it, with a large crest on it's head (which I thought would be the beak in the first instance.

I also added an image (the bottom one) of the backside of the handle above the silver sleeve.

Here the images!

Maurice

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Sajen

A shame that the handle is broken.

Hi Detlef, I don't mind. Indeed a pity, but it happend a very long time ago considering the patination, which is the same as the rest of the handle.
And old breakoffs make antique blades have more character..... :-)

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here some of my thoughts about it. I also think that it is from Lombok, me was told in Indonesia that this pedang with this type of handle coming from Lombok, have also a look to this thread, special #16: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang. In the beginning of the 90ties last century you can find a lot of this pedangs in Bali antique shops and every time it was told they are from Lombok. Of course this isn't a guarantee that it is indeed like this.

Thank you for sharing this phenomenom.
Though I would rather be more happy to have more information from old articles, images, drawings etc. etc., as from people selling stuff in "antique shops"...
Till now I don't have an old article yet which describes more about these pedangs and their origin. And we might never find one as there isn't one?
Or maybe something will show up which would surprise us and give a more better insight here.
What I did learn in the years of collecting till now, is to have a very good nose of "old patina". And this one has very fine glossy patina, and the blade is also of a high quality (as mentioned very difficult to show on pictures).
But I would love to compare different kind (recent and old) inlay with eachother.

Originally Posted by Sajen

I am with you that the inlays are done well, this could be a indication that they are old. I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example. But what I remember well, the blade was like yours very black stained. This is IMHO done to highlight the silver inlays. So I don't think that the black surface is old patina. This could be done in old times but as well recently. Like Alan I have seen blades with such inlays where I have been sure that this inlays are added for a better selling-price purpose but on the other hand I think to have seen blades with inlays which have been early collected but can't remember where.

I'm sure this happened. But I need comparison images of swords with "recent inlays" and swords which are early collected with "old inlays". This to have a close research on them if I've the right feeling or I'm hitting it wrong.
So if you find the blades with old inlays and early collected, I would be thankfull if you post them here.

Maurice

[A. G. Maisey]

Maurice, one of the problems that we sometimes face in this Forum is clarity of intent.

This is an English language Forum, but we have a very multi-cultural population of members, people for whom English is not their native language. I, and I am certain, all of us who are native English speakers very much appreciate the effort made by the non-native speakers of English who contribute to discussion, however, sometimes misunderstandings can occur. For example, I misread the tone of Michael's post on "order" as a directive to myself and others to proceed in discussion in a particular way that had already been decided upon by Michael. My interpretation was shown to be incorrect, as Michael subsequently pointed out, what he had written was only a clarification of his own preferences.

It seems a misunderstanding of my own intent may also have occurred. I thought that the content of my posts was clear, but apparently either the tone or the actual text has been misunderstood somewhere along the line so I'll try to clarify.

1)---I do not doubt that this type of sword can be found in many places throughout the Indonesian Archipelago.

2)---I do not doubt that it can be found in Lombok, even though there seems to be some evidence for its origin and existence in Southern Sumatera.

3)---My use of the phrase:- "my area of confusion" means exactly what it says, it not a polite way of casting doubt on anything; I am confused by the existence of this style of sword in both Southern Sumatera and Lombok.
Why?
Because the history of Lombok does not reveal any sociological link of substance that would explain the existence of this style of sword in these two widely placed locations. The Dutch were not really a contributing factor until the late 19th century, and did not gain any sort of substantial foothold until the early 20th century.
The Sasak are regarded as indigenous to Lombok and Islam became the general belief system during the 16th century; the island was not united and constant fighting existed between the Sasak, the Balinese colonised Lombok, and they brought it under control during the first half of the 19th century; the Bugis also established settlements in Lombok and challenged the Balinese. Nowhere can there be seen any input from South Sumatera, and the Dutch influence virtually did not exist until the early 20th century. However, Djelengga refers to this type of sword as a "traditional weapon of Lombok", and obviously a weapon of the Sasak people.

I wrote exactly what I meant:- I am confused; very often with the transference of material culture throughout the Indonesian Archipelago we can see clear and verifiable links. In the case of this item of material culture I cannot identify any such links, or even influences. Thus my confusion.
Incidentally, Djelengga calls this a "kelewang". In Jawa we'd call it a pedang. Using English I feel that "sword" is perhaps more appropriate.

I do hope that the above adequately clarifies what I meant in my previous post.

To respond to your comments, Maurice.

It seems that contrary to perhaps everybody else who has commented on this blade ornamentation, I do not find it to be particularly good. Previously I have referred to "this style" or "this type" of blade ornamentation, and by that I mean superficial applied silver ornamentation upon a very recently polished surface that has subsequently been false patinated. This type of work is most often produced by people who sell out of a particular market in Surabaya, and is also done in Jogja. The Surabaya source has been in existence for a very long time, the Jogja source for a shorter period, both have been producing since at least the 1950's.

It is rule of the trade in Jawa that when one had something that is very difficult to sell, for one reason or another, then action needs to be taken to enhance that object to make it a desirable product. This sword is badly damaged, and would be extremely difficult to find a buyer for in the Indonesian market, so it was enhanced to make it saleable. I do not know if the text on this particular sword is true text, or simply a mixture of symbols that looks like text, I can identify some characters, others seem to me like scribbles, but I am not at all qualified to give an opinion on this. However, whether it is true text, or whether it is a mockery of text, that does not alter the nature of this ornamentation, nor the reason it was done.


Maurice, you have requested that I post images of the sort of thing I am writing about.

I cannot do this. I wrote that I have seen this sort of thing, not that I possessed it. In fact I have very little interest in the various and sundry swords and daggers of Indonesia. My prime area of study is the keris, particularly of Jawa and Bali, and to a lesser degree the tombak. However, during any given year it is inevitable that I see and handle a very great number of keris, tombak, swords, daggers and other items of Indonesian material culture. I do not buy all these things, I simply look at them and buy a fraction of a percent.

Maurice, I do apologize for being brutal, but what I have written is my professional opinion, an opinion that has been formed by being a part of the Javanese keris trade for in excess of 30 years, and from being taught by a man who began dealing in keris and other traditional weapons in the late 1940's. What I am describing here has been going on since at least the late 19th century.


I think I should terminate my involvement in this thread. It seems that my presence here is only detracting from what would otherwise be a nice, mutually satisfactory exchange of opinions. Regrettably all opinions are not equal.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Maurice, one of the problems that we sometimes face in this Forum is clarity of intent.
This is an English language Forum, but we have a very multi-cultural population of members, people for whom English is not their native language. I, and I am certain, all of us who are native English speakers very much appreciate the effort made by the non-native speakers of English who contribute to discussion, however, sometimes misunderstandings can occur. For example, I misread the tone of Michael's post on "order" as a directive to myself and others to proceed in discussion in a particular way that had already been decided upon by Michael. My interpretation was shown to be incorrect, as Michael subsequently pointed out, what he had written was only a clarification of his own preferences.
It seems a misunderstanding of my own intent may also have occurred. I thought that the content of my posts was clear, but apparently either the tone or the actual text has been misunderstood somewhere along the line so I'll try to clarify.

I agree concerning the English language. For me it's also not that simple and often I need a translationprogramm on my computer, just as many of us.
The misreading, however, could also happen to native speakers of English mutually, as sometimes the accent or tone could be interpretated different, as if one should talk to eachother face to face and you can see the expressions and accents in combination with the bodylanguage, which is lacking in a forum.
I do appreciate you're trying to clarify some misunderstandings, which are certainly slipped in accidentally.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Because the history of Lombok does not reveal any sociological link of substance that would explain the existence of this style of sword in these two widely placed locations. The Dutch were not really a contributing factor until the late 19th century, and did not gain any sort of substantial foothold until the early 20th century.
The Sasak are regarded as indigenous to Lombok and Islam became the general belief system during the 16th century; the island was not united and constant fighting existed between the Sasak, the Balinese colonised Lombok, and they brought it under control during the first half of the 19th century; the Bugis also established settlements in Lombok and challenged the Balinese. Nowhere can there be seen any input from South Sumatera, and the Dutch influence virtually did not exist until the early 20th century. However, Djelengga refers to this type of sword as a "traditional weapon of Lombok", and obviously a weapon of the Sasak people.

You're right that Lombok was not interesting for the Dutch in the early VOC times, and that the interferences began in times of the "betrayel of Lombok", in 1894.
Though the Dutch surely were present often in the fairways (if that's the correct word) near Lombok.
Probably I shouldn't brought that up in my earlier comment, as it indeed seems to be not relevant here in the discussion of the sword (pedang) discussed here.
If you look at it the way you explained here, I now understand there's no connection known between the Sumatran people and the Sasak people whatso ever in history.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I wrote exactly what I meant:- I am confused; very often with the transference of material culture throughout the Indonesian Archipelago we can see clear and verifiable links. In the case of this item of material culture I cannot identify any such links, or even influences. Thus my confusion.
Incidentally, Djelengga calls this a "kelewang". In Jawa we'd call it a pedang. Using English I feel that "sword" is perhaps more appropriate.

It seems that these kind of swords, as Michael allready mentioned in a previous comment, show up in several area's.
This without knowing what all the connections could be between those area's, and why this partically sword shows up in such many different places.
For instance Banks mentions a similar one in an article, where he mentioned it to be used by Sea dayaks, and he named it in that article "Senangkas".

Could you explain to me who "Djelengga" is?
Forgive my ignorance, but when searching in this forum, I noticed only you mentioned this man a few times, and at any time there's no forummember who asked you who he is.
Probably they all know who he is, and I somehow am not familiar with him, so a short explanation would help for me.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It seems that contrary to perhaps everybody else who has commented on this blade ornamentation, I do not find it to be particularly good. Previously I have referred to "this style" or "this type" of blade ornamentation, and by that I mean superficial applied silver ornamentation upon a very recently polished surface that has subsequently been false patinated. This type of work is most often produced by people who sell out of a particular market in Surabaya, and is also done in Jogja. The Surabaya source has been in existence for a very long time, the Jogja source for a shorter period, both have been producing since at least the 1950's.

I know about the particular markets you're referring. I've seen their "work" for hours on the tv, as they're acquaintances of a friendcollector of mine who hang out with them a couple of times a year.
And I appreciate you're experience and it's of great value sharing it in this thread.
Concerning the pedang we're discussing here, there's a part which still has the old patina over the silverwork bedause it probably wasn't cleaned that well on that area as on the rest of the blade, as I mentioned before. And for my experiences with cleaning mandau blades with lots of silver or brass inlay, I know that I can clean it easily till the brass and silverwork shine like new, and the blade itself is showing the same patination as before, just by using a dishsoap and a scourer.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is rule of the trade in Jawa that when one had something that is very difficult to sell, for one reason or another, then action needs to be taken to enhance that object to make it a desirable product. This sword is badly damaged, and would be extremely difficult to find a buyer for in the Indonesian market, so it was enhanced to make it saleable. I do not know if the text on this particular sword is true text, or simply a mixture of symbols that looks like text, I can identify some characters, others seem to me like scribbles, but I am not at all qualified to give an opinion on this. However, whether it is true text, or whether it is a mockery of text, that does not alter the nature of this ornamentation, nor the reason it was done.

I know about embellishment of stuff which doesn't sell. But writing this sword down as badly damaged and extremely difficult to find a buyer for, sounds very strange to me. But again, everybody could have his own oppinion of collecting and I respect that in this forum!
I think that here we have the clear difference between keris collectors and the tribal sword collectors in general.
For a keris collector things have to be perfect, and they don't mind throwing away old dresses of kerisses and change them for new ones made on the one of the markets you mentioned above. Also handles from same regions are changing, just to make it more beautifull and it almost seemed to be accepted by most of the keris collectors.
For antique tribal sword collectors like me, we see beauty in old swords, preferably in original condition. When speaking for myself I like the old damages, IF they are old and not recently made by imprudence by previous owners.
According the pedang here in question: For example there had been mentioned these were brought a sackfull by Lombok dealers in Detlefs comment (he refers to a another vikingswordforum link).
Why wheren't those swords heavily decorated with texts, or where they? Because they look prettier as this one? I really don't understand that, to make such efforts of labour, if there were probably numerous in the antiqueshops in certain times. Is this one so bad that they needed to write it full from all sides with texts to make it salable?
With this particular sword it doesn't make sense to me at all, when comparing it with other pedangs I've seen which look a lot worse and were not written down with all kind of decorations and/or texts.
My opinion is that this sword with it's beautifully carved handle, and a beautifully smooth blade with two nice fullers didn't need to get written such extensively to get sold or wanted.
But again, that's mine opinion.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Maurice, you have requested that I post images of the sort of thing I am writing about.
I cannot do this. I wrote that I have seen this sort of thing, not that I possessed it. In fact I have very little interest in the various and sundry swords and daggers of Indonesia. My prime area of study is the keris, particularly of Jawa and Bali, and to a lesser degree the tombak. However, during any given year it is inevitable that I see and handle a very great number of keris, tombak, swords, daggers and other items of Indonesian material culture. I do not buy all these things, I simply look at them and buy a fraction of a percent.

OK, I can understand that as they are not your swords, and it would be inpropriate to post images here.
But what I think is very strange here is that nobody is able to depict images of swords with the same comparitively inlay, even on other swords as pedangs.
I would say if it was done on the Javanese markets since at least the 1950's to get them better salable, there would be numerous of these and there would be somebody who could attach images here, wouldn't it?
Till I've not seen any images to compare them, I will not take it for granted this is probably very recent work. That's the nature of the beast (if it's translated correctly from a Dutch saying).
And don't get me wrong, I don't doubt you're knowledge Alan. But I also don't doubt my own findings, and I need proofs from articles, museums, comparison pieces to make my own "common sense" result...

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Maurice, I do apologize for being brutal, but what I have written is my professional opinion, an opinion that has been formed by being a part of the Javanese keris trade for in excess of 30 years, and from being taught by a man who began dealing in keris and other traditional weapons in the late 1940's. What I am describing here has been going on since at least the late 19th century.

Alan, don't apologize, as everybody has his own opinion and everybody is free to discuss here, within the forum rules.
Also I really appreciate that, with your experience during all those years of studying and collecting kerisses, you're involved in this thread and share your findings.
I know a lot of "senior" collectors, and some of them collect and study even much longer as 30 years and are more the "quiet" collectors, and not participating on forums, though they are lurking once in a while.
With this group I have lots of very nice contact, and we discuss swords through email, or when I visit them a few times a year we go through their collection, which is great to exchange knowledge and compare pieces with eachother.
Most of the swords they collect have great provenance, or were bought in the very early days from people who inherited the pieces from relatives who directly brought them back as war trophies from concerning area.
Those are the swords to research (besides provenanced museumpieces) and not the ones that are/were sold in Indonesian antiqueshops (forgive me if I am offending somebody here, but this is my opinion).
Also as a "non professional", and a relatively young collector, I may be proud to say that I learned a lot in short time, and did some comprehensive research projects, which I did with help of Dutch museums and its curators, and the senior collectors/researchers I mentioned.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think I should terminate my involvement in this thread. It seems that my presence here is only detracting from what would otherwise be a nice, mutually satisfactory exchange of opinions. Regrettably all opinions are not equal.

Alan, feel free to discuss!
We're all here to learn from eachother.
In discussions all opinions are never equal, otherwise it wouldn't be a discussion and nothing will be learnt.
I just am not really easy to convince as long as I can easily disprove statements made without images, old articles or references to old provenanced pieces! I guess that's a good quality being a serious collector.

Rg,
Maurice

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Maurice,

I nice piece and as discussed, I am happy you won it, it was meant to be. I'll share the other one in time.

Tonight I have little time for writing but wish to note that Adni of MAG notes these as "klewang from the island of Lombok", perhaps an email to Adni may reveal some further information.
All but a few of my books are now in storage along with most of the family home contents...but what does Buttin mention about these swords?

Gavin

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your further comments Maurice.

"Djelengga" was Ir. H. Lalu Djelengga. He is now deceased. He authored "Keris di Lombok", published by Yayasan Pusaka Selaparang, it is out of print, and probably not able to be obtained, but you might find somebody with a photocopy for sale. This is the best reference for keris and other weapons from Lombok.

The 30 years I mentioned is the approximate time I have been involved in the keris trade in Jawa. My tuition by Empu Suparman began as near as I can recall, in 1982, and I had been buying in Indonesia long before that and selling internationally since 1978. Empu Suparman had dealt in keris and other traditional weapons, from the late 1940's, long before he was made a kraton empu. My actual study of keris and Javanese art, history and culture began when I was about 13 or 14, my collecting interest began when I was about 12, but I first came into contact with keris much earlier than that. I am now 72.

Maurice, I appreciate your invitation to continue discussion of this sword, but I will withdraw from discussion. I believe you will be much happier with comments from people other than myself, and apart from that, there is much I could say that I am duty bound not to say--- particularly in an internet discussion group that is open to everybody in the whole world to read.

Anything I might be able to add to what I have already said would serve no purpose at all.

[kai]

Hello Maurice,

OK, I'm glad you can give me the translation than!

I was going to suggest "Made in China" but you beat me to it.

Sorry for deserting this thread - going to add more soon.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Maurice,

You can see the lamination when having a close look to the blade.

Yup, I did saw those laminations - looks promising indeed! This blade is certainly nice - not sure how likely it was during the 19th century to add extensive scripture to an intricately (non-random) pattern-welded blade though...

My own rule of thumb is that the more script is found on any blade, the more suspicious I should be.

The inlay is far from crude, but probably you think so because of the close ups. I never have seen a better inlay on these kind of swords.

I agree that I've seen much worse examples which were obviously modern. However, with low wages in Indonesia even quality work is not neccessarily an indication for something being genuine/antique.

Just for example: In this case, I'd have expected nicer floral decorations. Or none if space were too limited.

I hope we'll compilate more inlaid pieces for comparision here (haven't found any genuine antique example of sword blades with such extensive scripture yet; did not do a comprehensive search though).

The inlay like this, is done the way it was occurring on other 19th century blades.

There were obviously different techniques utilized (cp. John's sikin panjang blade), so comparision of quality and possibly estimating age would need to account for several variables.

Sometimes you've got to have it in hands. This one is such piece you can't show it on images. You have to see and feel it.

Yup, I did stipulate this already.

This in combination with an enormous patina on the handle (which I've not seen often on these pedangs, probably because people cleaning the silverwork and decide to clean the whole handle instead?)

The horn pommel does seem to have really good age; I don't think real patina is much affected by repeated gentle cleaning. I believe that regular handling does help to keep the horn "alive" rather than drying out too much in storage, especially in low humidity.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Maurice,

Though I would rather be more happy to have more information from old articles, images, drawings etc. etc., as from people selling stuff in "antique shops"...
Till now I don't have an old article yet which describes more about these pedangs and their origin. And we might never find one as there isn't one?

Well, the only really old source which readily comes to mind is Schmeltz (1890; attached). And Fischer has it in the catalog for South Sumatra (1918).

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Here's my only pedang with (limited) inlay. Just to get a bit of diversity in, not necessarily the pinnacle of quality though.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Well, this is just my opinion, but i would also think that these inscriptions are relative recent to the blade. The blade itself does seem to be old as does the rest of the ensemble. I do like those fullers. There has been a lot of talk on this thread about the patina. Obviously there is some patina here, but there is also a lot of dirt. Dirt is not patina. Sliver can be cleaned up without removing patina. Wood and horn can be revitalized without removing patina.
I have never seen a blade from this areas with this extent of writing on the blade that wasn't either obviously recent or at least suspicious. I am sorry that i have no examples to show as this is a bit outside my collection area. Perhaps since this is your collection area you could show us some provenanced examples that you know of to have have true age to their extensive inlay work. It also seems odd that given the extensive wear on this blade that the inlay appears so pristine. You would think that it would be missing some areas of inlay as you see in the last example that Kai has posted if there was real age to it.
So, is ANYONE able to translate the writing?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.

Regards,
Kai

Exactly this one was meant, have forgotten that I have posted pictures at this place. Agree, the inlays look recent to me as well.

Regards,

Detlef

[VVV]

Kai,

Your pedang has a djadwal (a talismanic table) and not Qur'anic quotes.
Have you posted it before on this forum?
If not, maybe you can start a thread about it?
Maybe it has other Banjar characteristics, too?


Michael

[kai]

Hello Michael,

Your pedang has a djadwal (a talismanic table) and not Qur'anic quotes.

Yup, that's the reason why I feel more comfortable about it being genuine.

Have you posted it before on this forum?
If not, maybe you can start a thread about it?

Not yet - will get some more pics and post them.

Maybe it has other Banjar characteristics, too?

This one doesn't seem to have any obvious Banjar characteristics AFAIK. Am looking forward to more comments from you on this pedang!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello David,

It also seems odd that given the extensive wear on this blade that the inlay appears so pristine. You would think that it would be missing some areas of inlay as you see in the last example that Kai has posted if there was real age to it.

Maurice has a point though: it could also be argued the other way around (good quality work won't fail as easily). I guess we need additional approaches to get a better grip on these inlays.

So, is ANYONE able to translate the writing?

I've PMed Dom and hope he and his better half will have a look...

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

I am back home now for a day so here is the page that Alan referred to from Djelengga for everybody to read.

Based on my kindergarten level of Bahasa, he is writing that this is a traditional sword of Lombok and it is only used as weapon. That is the reason that some of them do not have pamor, but in the past they did. They are made locally by Lombok pande.

(Please correct my simple translation if I have misunderstood something)

Michael

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by VVV

I am back home now for a day so here is the page that Alan referred to from Djelengga for everybody to read.

Based on my kindergarten level of Bahasa, he is writing that this is a traditional sword of Lombok and it is only used as weapon. That is the reason that some of them do not have pamor, but in the past they did. They are made locally by Lombok pande.

(Please correct my simple translation if I have misunderstood something)

Michael

I think we have had the same kindergarten education in Bahasa Indonesia, I understand it in a similar way.

Regards,

Detlef

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

I'll share the other one in time.

Tonight I have little time for writing but wish to note that Adni of MAG notes these as "klewang from the island of Lombok", perhaps an email to Adni may reveal some further information.
All but a few of my books are now in storage along with most of the family home contents...but what does Buttin mention about these swords?

Hi Gavin,

Please do share the other one when you have some time (and if it will reach you ofcourse. ;-) ).

Thank you also for your input! I'll see what I can find out with your references!

Maurice

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for your further comments Maurice.

"Djelengga" was Ir. H. Lalu Djelengga. He is now deceased. He authored "Keris di Lombok", published by Yayasan Pusaka Selaparang, it is out of print, and probably not able to be obtained, but you might find somebody with a photocopy for sale. This is the best reference for keris and other weapons from Lombok.

The 30 years I mentioned is the approximate time I have been involved in the keris trade in Jawa. My tuition by Empu Suparman began as near as I can recall, in 1982, and I had been buying in Indonesia long before that and selling internationally since 1978. Empu Suparman had dealt in keris and other traditional weapons, from the late 1940's, long before he was made a kraton empu. My actual study of keris and Javanese art, history and culture began when I was about 13 or 14, my collecting interest began when I was about 12, but I first came into contact with keris much earlier than that. I am now 72.

Maurice, I appreciate your invitation to continue discussion of this sword, but I will withdraw from discussion. I believe you will be much happier with comments from people other than myself, and apart from that, there is much I could say that I am duty bound not to say--- particularly in an internet discussion group that is open to everybody in the whole world to read.

Anything I might be able to add to what I have already said would serve no purpose at all.

Dear Alan,

Thank you very much for your reply and your explanation of Djelengga.
Somehow I really never heard about him, and now I'm certainly going to look if I find a copy somewhere of this probably most interesting work!

It's a truly interesting history of study keris and art etc you have built up.... I really respect that a lot, and therefore I really enjoyed having our debating.
Thank you for participating, and feel free to bump in any time you want.
It's always good to have such experienced collectors/researchers around on these forums!

Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Maurice,


Well, the only really old source which readily comes to mind is Schmeltz (1890; attached). And Fischer has it in the catalog for South Sumatra (1918).

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

Thanks for bringing this one up. Ofcourse I was aware of this one (and also about the Fischer catalogue), but I meant a more extended work about these kind of weapons...
Hopefully we find more in future

Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by kai

Here's my only pedang with (limited) inlay. Just to get a bit of diversity in, not necessarily the pinnacle of quality though.

Thanks Kai for sharing this one!
Looks like a very nice one. Can you show us an image of the whole sword?