Features of this keris. - Page 2

BluErf · 24th December 2005, 12:44 AM

Ops... must be because I'm half asleep when I posted the reply at 1:40am local time...

BluErf · 24th December 2005, 12:50 AM

Incidentally, Martin's keris may be a bit rougher in the blade's department, but the hilt is really good, and so are the sheath and pendok.

Battara · 24th December 2005, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Ki Jayamalelo,

Alas... 99.9999% of us keris collectors can never hope to own, touch, or even see a high-culture keris...

.

You're not kidding. I have a better end Bali keris that I am 10 years now in restoring. The only true high-culture keris I have ever seen up close and touched (

) was one that Rsword brought to Timonium last year - a Bugis keris with great pamor and covered in 22k gold (but missing a bottom part

). It was beautiful, but I could not come near affording it (though I wanted to very much

).

nechesh · 24th December 2005, 09:40 PM

I'm afraid it's even worse than you think Jose. I didn't see the keris Rick brought to the last seminar, so i could be wrong, but if he was asking less than $50,000.00 it probably didn't qualify or he didn't truly know what he had and was asking too little. This don't mean that it wasn't a very nice keris. Don't let the gold fool you, anyone can add that on to a well made blade and make it look like something even more than it is.

We tend to see a lot more dress that could clothe a high end keris than the keris themselves, probably because high end dress is still being made. Most often the keris we see in such fancy dress are decent to poor, with the dress meant to sell the package. As has been implied, these "high culture" keris are raely, if ever, seen by mere mortal eyes.

BluErf · 24th December 2005, 11:56 PM

I don't think there is a "cutoff price" like US$50k that differentiates a high culture keris from a normal keris.

It depends on what the owner wants for the keris, which, for some lucky guy, could be US$1 because the aging owner thinks he is the best person to look after the keris for the next few decades.

I also think that a high-end keris is not necessarily a high-culture keris, because high-culture kerises implies extremely high levels of artistry which usually means it is expensive, while a high-end keris can be made from very expensive materials, but of mediocre artistry.

And as for decent to poor kerises in high-end dress, apart from those done up by unscrupulous dealers, there are instances of real royal kerises from Bugis and Malay courts, and I believe even in the Javanese courts, which have blades that are so-so. These could be the old royal regalia, or simply a keris with special meaning to the royal family. One such example is the incredible gold Bugis keris gracing the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia. The gem-encrusted gold toli-toli with the dazzling gemmed rosette disc (sorry, forgot the term for that), and the repoussed gold sheets are of the highest quality, but the blade is just a good, old tough 7-waved Bugis blade.

Heheh, this is almost going into the 'pedigree' of a high-culture keris. There are ordinary kerises who follow the fortunes of the owner and get real beautiful dresses (i.e. the noveau rich), and there are kerises who were 'born high' and dressed high from day 1 (i.e. the snooty old money rich).

nechesh · 25th December 2005, 12:30 AM

Sorry Kai Wee, i didn't mean to throw that out as a cut-off price, just trying to throw out a number which was high enough to imply that one might pay, say $10,000 for a keris and still not get a "high culture" piece, just a VERY nice (hopefully

) keris. Again, these are arbitrary figures. Personally, i would just love to be that "lucky guy" who buys such a keris for only $1 (Santa, are you listening

), but i don't really think this happens all to often. Still.....

Certainly it is true that there are some royal blades in high-end dress that could be considered mediocre. But these are not the keris that are generally presented to us collectors. What i was referring to were keris we see on the open market and especially on ebay and yes, we might consider these guys "unscrupulous dealers". It is especially common to see this done with Balinese keris as the Balinese still make very fine dress of gold, silver and gemstones which can dazzle the eye of the unsuspecting collector.
Where did you see the blade on the Sumatran keris on the cover of Court Arts? I don't recall seeing a photo of it in the book. The dress is indeed exquisite.

BluErf · 25th December 2005, 12:38 AM

Yes, the photos were not published. sorry, can't share them because they're not mine to do so... But yes, just imagine a good old tough Bugis luk 7 blade with pamor kulit semangka, ujung gunong, wengkon, and a fair bit of akhodiat; the kembang kacang worn off a bit at the end; the luks are shallow but beautiful. There are no sogokans, lis-lisan, not much greneng.

BluErf · 25th December 2005, 12:42 AM

Ok, just to put an image to the description -- this is from my collection.

The Court Arts of Indonesia Bugis blade is of the same form, but nicer all round, and in better condition.

Battara · 25th December 2005, 02:25 AM

You both bring out some good points (like the one on my head

). I thought the workmanship on the one about which I speak was good on the gold dress, the pamor was interesting, though not of high contrast.

I guess the high-culture ones you speak are the ones in the museums and the books like "Court Arts of Indonesia".

BluErf · 26th December 2005, 03:38 AM

There are a few that I know of that are in private collections. But they are the 'imperfects' - i.e. missing sheaths, replacement sheaths of lesser qualities, sheaths and hilts with the gold and gems picked off, corroded blades (oh this is the saddest part -- you could see the blade was once magnificent, but now it's eaten away here and there).

As collectors, we can only hope for the best and when 'the one' comes along, give it our best shot.

Alam Shah · 26th December 2005, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

As collectors, we can only hope for the best and when 'the one' comes along, give it our best shot.

Ditto to that, and hopefully comes unnoticed. There are many with 'hawk eyes'.

John · 26th December 2005, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Ditto to that, and hopefully comes unnoticed. There are many with 'hawk eyes'.

I think many of the "hawk eyes" are from Singapore,

some fierce collectors (and some low keyed of course) there. Understand the 4rd keris in Man's post of 22nd also went to Spore.

Mans · 26th December 2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

I think many of the "hawk eyes" are from Singapore, some fierce collectors (and some low keyed of course) there. Understand the 4rd keris in Man's post of 22nd also went to Spore.

100% agree !!!
But.... I won't to give my opinion about that. Just at SWAP forum

I think John more knew about the kerises which 'flying' to Spore

Isreena · 9th February 2006, 06:54 PM

Hello Alam Shah,

I really like the keris you just had

Hmmm... Does it come in Luk 9? I'm looking for one just like that

Cool... As long as the piece you like could qualify as what a keris should be? Well be pround of it

I have to agree with you, I too believe that as a so called "new generation keris collectors" we should maintain an open mind. Its Unique and its You

Alam Shah · 10th February 2006, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isreena

Hello Alam Shah,

I really like the keris you just had

Hmmm... Does it come in Luk 9? I'm looking for one just like that

Cool... As long as the piece you like could qualify as what a keris should be? Well be proud of it

I have to agree with you, I too believe that as a so called "new generation keris collectors" we should maintain an open mind. Its Unique and its You

Hmm?! Welcome to the forum.
Your writing style reminds me of someone...

I know.

Isreena · 14th February 2006, 06:09 PM

Hello Alam Shah,

Hey.... Congratulation on the winning of your Keris Pendawa Karna Tinanding Pudak Sategal in this year's Keris Pageant held at the Taman Warisan Istana Kampung Gelam. Be proud and be you....

Alam Shah · 15th February 2006, 02:36 AM

Thanks Isreena, I like this piece a lot. I guess it's a personal thing.

The person who commissioned this piece had an eye for details, hence a well-made blade with nice fittings. Tayuman (ukiran) and Nagasari (warangka) wood are prized premium fittings (imo).

A luk 9 piece would look great too. The philosophy of the luk 9 could follow the 'The 9 Walis' (Wali 9 or Wali Songo) theme. Just a suggestion.

John · 15th February 2006, 10:46 AM

Well done Shah and congrats again. I hear Paul still rules and Kai Wee swept the Sulawesi Bugis

. Looking forward to the pics.

BluErf · 15th February 2006, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Well done Shah and congrats again. I hear Paul still rules and Kai Wee swept the Sulawesi Bugis

. Looking forward to the pics.

Paul's winning is no surprise given the super pieces in his collection! And the reason why my keris won was because Tengkurizan didn't put in any of his Bugis kerises!!

25th December 2005, 12:42 AM	#38
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ok, just to put an image to the description -- this is from my collection. The Court Arts of Indonesia Bugis blade is of the same form, but nicer all round, and in better condition. Attached Images

9th February 2006, 06:54 PM	#44
Isreena Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9	Keris Pendawa Karna Tinanding Hello Alam Shah, I really like the keris you just had Hmmm... Does it come in Luk 9? I'm looking for one just like that Cool... As long as the piece you like could qualify as what a keris should be? Well be pround of it I have to agree with you, I too believe that as a so called "new generation keris collectors" we should maintain an open mind. Its Unique and its You

14th February 2006, 06:09 PM	#46
Isreena Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9	Keris Pageant Hello Alam Shah, Hey.... Congratulation on the winning of your Keris Pendawa Karna Tinanding Pudak Sategal in this year's Keris Pageant held at the Taman Warisan Istana Kampung Gelam. Be proud and be you....

15th February 2006, 10:46 AM	#48
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Keris Pageant Well done Shah and congrats again. I hear Paul still rules and Kai Wee swept the Sulawesi Bugis . Looking forward to the pics.

24th December 2005, 12:44 AM	#31
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ops... must be because I'm half asleep when I posted the reply at 1:40am local time...

24th December 2005, 12:50 AM	#32
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Incidentally, Martin's keris may be a bit rougher in the blade's department, but the hilt is really good, and so are the sheath and pendok.

24th December 2005, 09:40 PM	#34
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I'm afraid it's even worse than you think Jose. I didn't see the keris Rick brought to the last seminar, so i could be wrong, but if he was asking less than $50,000.00 it probably didn't qualify or he didn't truly know what he had and was asking too little. This don't mean that it wasn't a very nice keris. Don't let the gold fool you, anyone can add that on to a well made blade and make it look like something even more than it is. We tend to see a lot more dress that could clothe a high end keris than the keris themselves, probably because high end dress is still being made. Most often the keris we see in such fancy dress are decent to poor, with the dress meant to sell the package. As has been implied, these "high culture" keris are raely, if ever, seen by mere mortal eyes.

24th December 2005, 11:56 PM	#35
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I don't think there is a "cutoff price" like US$50k that differentiates a high culture keris from a normal keris. It depends on what the owner wants for the keris, which, for some lucky guy, could be US$1 because the aging owner thinks he is the best person to look after the keris for the next few decades. I also think that a high-end keris is not necessarily a high-culture keris, because high-culture kerises implies extremely high levels of artistry which usually means it is expensive, while a high-end keris can be made from very expensive materials, but of mediocre artistry. And as for decent to poor kerises in high-end dress, apart from those done up by unscrupulous dealers, there are instances of real royal kerises from Bugis and Malay courts, and I believe even in the Javanese courts, which have blades that are so-so. These could be the old royal regalia, or simply a keris with special meaning to the royal family. One such example is the incredible gold Bugis keris gracing the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia. The gem-encrusted gold toli-toli with the dazzling gemmed rosette disc (sorry, forgot the term for that), and the repoussed gold sheets are of the highest quality, but the blade is just a good, old tough 7-waved Bugis blade. Heheh, this is almost going into the 'pedigree' of a high-culture keris. There are ordinary kerises who follow the fortunes of the owner and get real beautiful dresses (i.e. the noveau rich), and there are kerises who were 'born high' and dressed high from day 1 (i.e. the snooty old money rich).

25th December 2005, 12:30 AM	#36
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Kai Wee, i didn't mean to throw that out as a cut-off price, just trying to throw out a number which was high enough to imply that one might pay, say $10,000 for a keris and still not get a "high culture" piece, just a VERY nice (hopefully ) keris. Again, these are arbitrary figures. Personally, i would just love to be that "lucky guy" who buys such a keris for only $1 (Santa, are you listening ), but i don't really think this happens all to often. Still..... Certainly it is true that there are some royal blades in high-end dress that could be considered mediocre. But these are not the keris that are generally presented to us collectors. What i was referring to were keris we see on the open market and especially on ebay and yes, we might consider these guys "unscrupulous dealers". It is especially common to see this done with Balinese keris as the Balinese still make very fine dress of gold, silver and gemstones which can dazzle the eye of the unsuspecting collector. Where did you see the blade on the Sumatran keris on the cover of Court Arts? I don't recall seeing a photo of it in the book. The dress is indeed exquisite.

25th December 2005, 12:38 AM	#37
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yes, the photos were not published. sorry, can't share them because they're not mine to do so... But yes, just imagine a good old tough Bugis luk 7 blade with pamor kulit semangka, ujung gunong, wengkon, and a fair bit of akhodiat; the kembang kacang worn off a bit at the end; the luks are shallow but beautiful. There are no sogokans, lis-lisan, not much greneng.

25th December 2005, 02:25 AM	#39
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	You both bring out some good points (like the one on my head ). I thought the workmanship on the one about which I speak was good on the gold dress, the pamor was interesting, though not of high contrast. I guess the high-culture ones you speak are the ones in the museums and the books like "Court Arts of Indonesia".

26th December 2005, 03:38 AM	#40
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	There are a few that I know of that are in private collections. But they are the 'imperfects' - i.e. missing sheaths, replacement sheaths of lesser qualities, sheaths and hilts with the gold and gems picked off, corroded blades (oh this is the saddest part -- you could see the blade was once magnificent, but now it's eaten away here and there). As collectors, we can only hope for the best and when 'the one' comes along, give it our best shot.

15th February 2006, 02:36 AM	#47
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Thanks Isreena, I like this piece a lot. I guess it's a personal thing. The person who commissioned this piece had an eye for details, hence a well-made blade with nice fittings. Tayuman (ukiran) and Nagasari (warangka) wood are prized premium fittings (imo). A luk 9 piece would look great too. The philosophy of the luk 9 could follow the 'The 9 Walis' (Wali 9 or Wali Songo) theme. Just a suggestion.