Mystery Weapons from Bulgaria - Page 2

Rivkin · 27th March 2006, 02:05 AM

Yes, not 1912.

eftihis · 6th July 2007, 08:02 PM

Hi, these are photos from an exhibition of the "museum for the macedonian struggle", that is currently on public view. There are kamas used by Greek fighters, but of course there is no evidence where in Macedonia (or in what balkan teritory) they were made.

Very interesting is the shamshir style sword. Its guard has one part turning at one side and the other part on the other side, exactly the style of the guard of some of the kamas. Therefore definitely made at the same place with the same fashion.

TVV · 6th July 2007, 09:13 PM

Great photos Eftihis! It is too bad that the shmashir is in its scabbard and one cannot see the blade, but it looks shortened. Perhaps the guard is a later replacement. The variety is interesting, but to be somewhat expected when it comes to Macedonia. For example VMORO fighters bought whatever weapon they could, from cap lock rifles to Mannlichers and Enfields, and there are still specimens found in people's atticks that are so rare that one has to go to the museum of the producer to find another copy. Considering the geographic position of Macedonia and its ethnical diversity, it would only make sense that there is a diversity among the weapon forms as well.
There is an interesting mediterranean dagger on on of the photos. I think in one of Hermann Historica's catalogues a similar one is identified as from Yannina. Do you recall what its description said?
Regards,
Teodor

eftihis · 7th July 2007, 09:50 AM

Hi, i have seen a similar dagger in the book you mentioned, and i remembered it said "Yiannina" as a provenance, and i have seen another with the same attribution, but it does not look as "local" greek style. Maybe is a mediterranean dagger design that has been copied in Yiannina. This one in the photo has only a label with the name of the man it belonged to.

TVV · 7th July 2007, 09:53 PM

Thanks Eftihis.

Rumpel · 2nd March 2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Great photos Eftihis! It is too bad that the shmashir is in its scabbard and one cannot see the blade, but it looks shortened. Perhaps the guard is a later replacement.

Hi Teodor, sorry about dredging up an old thread, but I think the shamshir above may be a modified Ottoman issue sabre (see pics).

The below photo was taken by the contemporary Macedonian Greek photographer Leonidas Papazoglou, and some of his other photos show rather appealing qamas stuffed into waistbands: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca...das_Papazoglou

TVV · 2nd March 2010, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Hi Teodor, sorry about dredging up an old thread, but I think the shamshir above may be a modified Ottoman issue sabre (see pics).

The below photo was taken by the contemporary Macedonian Greek photographer Leonidas Papazoglou, and some of his other photos show rather appealing qamas stuffed into waistbands: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca...das_Papazoglou

Hi Rumpel,

Thank you for finding a picture of Papazoglu with the sword - it looks to be the same sword from the museum.

However, I do not think the guard is actually a cut down from a more elaborate guard as the one on the kilidj from your post - if you look closely at the pictures of the item in the museum, you can see there is no langet going down the grip, but instead the whole thing was cast in a manner, typical of some the qamas of the period.

Best regards,
Teodor

Itaca · 5th May 2014, 08:30 PM

Hello gentlemen !
I collect military objects of the two world wars,
I really like the material Austrian WW1 . I'm Italian so I like
even things Italian , the two wars.

I have carefully read your theories , I think the dagger
Macedonian is used during the Balkan wars , however, likely that
was also used by the Bulgarians , who are close to the Macedonia
and that they had many things in common cultural and historical heritage .

Unfortunately I do not know how to explain well in English but I have many things to say ...

I show you my dagger ,This has not been cleaned by me. has the handle in a single piece of bronze, inlaid with precious wood of ebony. The blade is fastened with two rivets. The scabbard is made of wood covered with leather, it is hand made. I agree that these have not been studied very
and that these blades are always classified as Ottoman , even if they are not
Ottoman really !
I these two I bought in Albania that is close to the Macedonia and Bulgaria.
If you want more details for this dagger study well you have to ask , with no problems I'm available .

I show you the second dagger which I failed to classify , I think
which is kind of colonial ( Italian colonies / English / French etc. .. ) that is coming from Africa East or from North Africa .
The scabbard is military ....This has the sheath made with sheet iron, covered with skin. At the center of the handle which is made of bronze, has inset horn.
What do you say ?
you know better identify?

Thanks Itaca

Itaca · 8th May 2014, 08:32 PM

Do not say anything?

gp · 7th May 2020, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Hi, these are photos from an exhibition of the "museum for the macedonian struggle", that is currently on public view. There are kamas used by Greek fighters, but of course there is no evidence where in Macedonia (or in what balkan teritory) they were made.

Very interesting is the shamshir style sword. Its guard has one part turning at one side and the other part on the other side, exactly the style of the guard of some of the kamas. Therefore definitely made at the same place with the same fashion.

Hello Eftihis, being the new kid on the block, I read some older post which interest me. So also this one...which raises a question:
did the weapons belong to Greek guerilla's on mainland Europe, Asia Minor or the ones from Crete ( as described in Captain Michalis / Ο Καπετάν Μιχάλης, the novel by Nikos Kazantzakis ? Or was there not much difference at all ?

TVV · 8th May 2020, 05:36 PM

Itaca, the dagger with the hilt encased on brass(second one from your pictures going from the top down) is Bulgarian, there is no doubt about that. It was probably made in Gabrovo, the main knife making center from the early 20th century, though unless there are markings it would be impossible to tell for certain. I am not sure about the first dagger you show, as it looks like a custom creation.

Teodor

ariel · 8th May 2020, 09:49 PM

Sorry, but somehow I have missed the excitement.

There were at least 2 major waves/ routes of kindjal entry into the Balkan areal.
First, straight from the Ottoman Turkey.
Second, with the exile of Circassians and other local participants from the occupied Caucasus into the Ottoman Empire. From there the “ muhajirs” were dispersed all over the Empire. Balkans, vilayet of Damascus were the main destinations. Amman was established ( or revived) by Shapsughs, personal guard of the king of Jordan is still Circassian, there are Circassian villages in Israel. But even before that, Circassians in the former Mamluke Egypt became highly placed officials in Sudan ( I have a typical Caucasian kindjal with unmistakable Sudanese features). Caucasian influence or even actual trade blades can be found in Arabia proper and even as far as India, where kindjal blades became popular as hunting weapons among the upper stratum.

Muhajir masters continued to manufacture kindjals and shashkas in a typical Caucasian style but with hints of their Turkish origin ( for example, just a Tugra).
On top of that, these Caucasian weapons acquired local, often European, features. IMHO, the brass frame is just that.

Weapons move, mutate and create strange and often charming chimeras.
Kirill Rivkin was correct stating that they may be the most reliable markers of historical developments and population movements.

kwiatek · 8th May 2020, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Itaca, the dagger with the hilt encased on brass(second one from your pictures going from the top down) is Bulgarian, there is no doubt about that. It was probably made in Gabrovo, the main knife making center from the early 20th century, though unless there are markings it would be impossible to tell for certain. I am not sure about the first dagger you show, as it looks like a custom creation.

Teodor

Interesting. The only place names I've ever seen on any non-imperial yataghan is 'Rahova', which was the Ottoman Turkish name for Orjahovo which is on the Danube. At first of all I assumed this was a mistake for Gabrovo, since that place is well known for blade manufacture, but I've seen it on a couple of pieces

TVV · 11th May 2020, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek

Interesting. The only place names I've ever seen on any non-imperial yataghan is 'Rahova', which was the Ottoman Turkish name for Orjahovo which is on the Danube. At first of all I assumed this was a mistake for Gabrovo, since that place is well known for blade manufacture, but I've seen it on a couple of pieces

Kwiatek, this is very interesting, as place names on yataghans are extremely rare. Were those referring to the place of manufacture or the place where the owner lived?

Also, what do you mean by non-imperial yataghans?

Teodor

kwiatek · 11th May 2020, 10:09 PM

As the place of manufacture. I will have to dig them up from my photo archive and ask the owners' permission, though I think they will probably be published shortly anyway.

By non-imperial, I just meant the later type i.e. not the one in the Topkapi made for Süleyman by Ahmed Tekelü or the similar one in the Met (which don't mention the place of production either).

6th July 2007, 08:02 PM	#32
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Photos adding to the subject Hi, these are photos from an exhibition of the "museum for the macedonian struggle", that is currently on public view. There are kamas used by Greek fighters, but of course there is no evidence where in Macedonia (or in what balkan teritory) they were made. Very interesting is the shamshir style sword. Its guard has one part turning at one side and the other part on the other side, exactly the style of the guard of some of the kamas. Therefore definitely made at the same place with the same fashion. Attached Images

5th May 2014, 08:30 PM	#38
Itaca Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 6	Macedonian rebel Dagger with another dagger Hello gentlemen ! I collect military objects of the two world wars, I really like the material Austrian WW1 . I'm Italian so I like even things Italian , the two wars. I have carefully read your theories , I think the dagger Macedonian is used during the Balkan wars , however, likely that was also used by the Bulgarians , who are close to the Macedonia and that they had many things in common cultural and historical heritage . Unfortunately I do not know how to explain well in English but I have many things to say ... I show you my dagger ,This has not been cleaned by me. has the handle in a single piece of bronze, inlaid with precious wood of ebony. The blade is fastened with two rivets. The scabbard is made of wood covered with leather, it is hand made. I agree that these have not been studied very and that these blades are always classified as Ottoman , even if they are not Ottoman really ! I these two I bought in Albania that is close to the Macedonia and Bulgaria. If you want more details for this dagger study well you have to ask , with no problems I'm available . I show you the second dagger which I failed to classify , I think which is kind of colonial ( Italian colonies / English / French etc. .. ) that is coming from Africa East or from North Africa . The scabbard is military ....This has the sheath made with sheet iron, covered with skin. At the center of the handle which is made of bronze, has inset horn. What do you say ? you know better identify? Thanks Itaca Attached Images Last edited by Itaca; 5th May 2014 at 11:10 PM.

27th March 2006, 02:05 AM	#31
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Yes, not 1912.

6th July 2007, 09:13 PM	#33
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Great photos Eftihis! It is too bad that the shmashir is in its scabbard and one cannot see the blade, but it looks shortened. Perhaps the guard is a later replacement. The variety is interesting, but to be somewhat expected when it comes to Macedonia. For example VMORO fighters bought whatever weapon they could, from cap lock rifles to Mannlichers and Enfields, and there are still specimens found in people's atticks that are so rare that one has to go to the museum of the producer to find another copy. Considering the geographic position of Macedonia and its ethnical diversity, it would only make sense that there is a diversity among the weapon forms as well. There is an interesting mediterranean dagger on on of the photos. I think in one of Hermann Historica's catalogues a similar one is identified as from Yannina. Do you recall what its description said? Regards, Teodor

7th July 2007, 09:50 AM	#34
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hi, i have seen a similar dagger in the book you mentioned, and i remembered it said "Yiannina" as a provenance, and i have seen another with the same attribution, but it does not look as "local" greek style. Maybe is a mediterranean dagger design that has been copied in Yiannina. This one in the photo has only a label with the name of the man it belonged to.

7th July 2007, 09:53 PM	#35
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Thanks Eftihis.

8th May 2014, 08:32 PM	#39
Itaca Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 6	Do not say anything?

8th May 2020, 05:36 PM	#41
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Itaca, the dagger with the hilt encased on brass(second one from your pictures going from the top down) is Bulgarian, there is no doubt about that. It was probably made in Gabrovo, the main knife making center from the early 20th century, though unless there are markings it would be impossible to tell for certain. I am not sure about the first dagger you show, as it looks like a custom creation. Teodor

8th May 2020, 09:49 PM	#42
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry, but somehow I have missed the excitement. There were at least 2 major waves/ routes of kindjal entry into the Balkan areal. First, straight from the Ottoman Turkey. Second, with the exile of Circassians and other local participants from the occupied Caucasus into the Ottoman Empire. From there the “ muhajirs” were dispersed all over the Empire. Balkans, vilayet of Damascus were the main destinations. Amman was established ( or revived) by Shapsughs, personal guard of the king of Jordan is still Circassian, there are Circassian villages in Israel. But even before that, Circassians in the former Mamluke Egypt became highly placed officials in Sudan ( I have a typical Caucasian kindjal with unmistakable Sudanese features). Caucasian influence or even actual trade blades can be found in Arabia proper and even as far as India, where kindjal blades became popular as hunting weapons among the upper stratum. Muhajir masters continued to manufacture kindjals and shashkas in a typical Caucasian style but with hints of their Turkish origin ( for example, just a Tugra). On top of that, these Caucasian weapons acquired local, often European, features. IMHO, the brass frame is just that. Weapons move, mutate and create strange and often charming chimeras. Kirill Rivkin was correct stating that they may be the most reliable markers of historical developments and population movements.

11th May 2020, 10:09 PM	#45
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	As the place of manufacture. I will have to dig them up from my photo archive and ask the owners' permission, though I think they will probably be published shortly anyway. By non-imperial, I just meant the later type i.e. not the one in the Topkapi made for Süleyman by Ahmed Tekelü or the similar one in the Met (which don't mention the place of production either).