Scottish basket hilts and edged weapons

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for coming in on this Richard! Excellent questions as well.
It does seem amazing that this sword attributed to such a historic figure could be in such a state, and I think Paul's explanation covers it quite well. The hiding away of weapons, regardless of importance, has always been quite common, indeed after the proscription of Scottish weaponry following the '45, vast numbers of weapons according to stories told, ended up in thatched roofs and all manner of hideaways.

I recall years ago seeing illustrations of the sword attributed to Rob Roy that Paul mentions from Sir Walter Scott's Abbotsford, and for some reason feeling that as Paul noted, it may well be 'a' sword used at one time by Rob Roy, but certainly not exclusively. It is often amazing, the almost theatrical tales that are applied to weapons presented to collectors, and romantization is quite frankly what made Sir Walter Scott the magnificent writer he was!

In one item I found written in "Scotland Illustrated" by William Beattie (1847), the author notes that the duel between Charles Stuart of Ardshiel and Rob Roy, MacGregor was angered when a cut by Ardshiel drew blood, and having reached satisfaction , he supposedly threw his broadsword into Lochvail nearly opposite Stronvaar House. The author speculated that it was still there.

Interestingly this is but one version of the tale, in this case claiming that the cut became infected and MacGregor died later from it. In other versions of the tale, it is said MacGregor died quietly in his home at a goodly age, not by sword or bullet.

It stands to reason that the sword we are discussing here most certainly was at least one of the weapons used by Rob Roy, and corresponds well to the contemporary descriptions as well noted by Paul. It seems doubtful that Rob Roy would throw a beloved basket hilt into a lake, regardless of how angered he might have been. I am just glad that it was given over to Paul before it suffered more damage, and that it is now preserved.

Paul, thank you for addressing the liners of these as well, a topic that is seldom ever mentioned especially in such detail.

Jeff, you're here!!! You know I've been waiting for those beauties of yours
I'd like to know more on these 'S' hilts as well.

The 'twysden' attribution came from Mazansky didn't it?

Gentlemen, thank you all very much for bringing so much into this thread!

All very best regards,
Jim

[Paul Macdonald]

Jeff,

Those are some beautiful swords!

The first looks like it will dance in the hand nicely

Jim, thanks for that reference to MacGregor throwing his sword in Loch Voil. I had wondered where this had come from, as there is a reference in the family history to it.
If you could send me any info. or copies of this, it would be very much appreciated, as I have had to piece together the real legend from many other stories.

Sir Walter Scott is largely to blame for the popular myth, that MacGregors last duel was with Alistair (sometimes given as Alexander, as the Gaelic for this name sounds more like Alistair) Stuart of Invernahyle. The Ardshiel family were quite adamant that this was not true and it took some digging to discover that this was the case.

Scott attributed this man to the duel, as he was first invited up to visit the Highlands at the request of Alistair Stuart of Invernahyle. This first visit inspired him to write the book Rob Roy, and he was no doubt fed many stories of the man`s legend at the time. The book he wrote some years later, and in the original introduction, he states that he attributed Invernahyle as MacGregors antagonist for his last duel but that "it was so many years ago he heard these tales that he may be mistaken", thus casting doubt upon his own accuracy.

Over the years, many authors of books on MacGregor have simply taken this story as fact, and also attributed Invernahyle as MacGregors last opponent.

The real story however, can be found in the nearest contemporary Gaelic account, translated from the original Dewar Manuscripts. These were commissioned by the Duke of Argyll in the mid C19th. The man who wrote them was John Dewar, a local worker under Argyll`s pay. He was a native Gaelic speaker and familiar with many local tales of the period, and it was his task to collect as much local historical fact and tale as possible to preserve them for future generations.

In here is the entire story of MacGregor and Ardshiels duel, from the cause to the challenge to subsequent retributions taken afterwards. There is no mention of Invernahyle here.

What is interesting to note is several similarities in both tales of MacGregor and Invernahyle that follow through. Both mention that the duel took place in Balqhuidder, the Dewar account clearly taking place behind the local inn. MacGregor was facing a man nearly half his age. He is bested by a cut under the chin (this is the one serious enough to end the combat). He says to his opponent "Well done, that this is the first time my sword has failed me, and the first time I have been bested in single combat".

In both cases also, with the exception of the Loch Voil reference, upon being cut, he sticks his sword into the ground before complimenting his opponent.

There were two inns by Balqhuidder at this time, one actually in the village, and one on the edge of it. This is the one I suspect was the site for the duel, as it is originally an older building, dating back to the C16th. Neither of these buildings are anywhere near sword-chucking distance to Loch Voil. The sword in the ground story appears first in the Dewar manuscripts and pops up in later versions also. And like you say Jim, he was a measured man, a swordsman, who is not likely to just throw away good steel.

I hope this helps shed a wee bit more light of legend upon these twa swords.





Yours Very Truly,

Macdonald

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Jim this is the info on the baskets in the museum. From the top.

1) 17th Cent. German Blade, possible hilt made in Stirling.

2) 1730-40, Backsword, hilt Walter Allan, Stirling, German blade.

3) 1740, Broadsword, hilt Walter Allen, Stirling, German blade.

4) 1730, Broadsword, brass hilt Robert Craig, Glasgow, marked with the City of Glasgow Arms, German blade.

5) 1700-25, hilt John Simpson, Glasgow, German blade Herman Keisserr, probably belonged to James Graham, 1st marquis of Montrose.

6) 1720, hilt John Simpson the Elder, Glasgow, German blade.

Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Some more baskets. From the top.

1) Early 17th Cent., Scottish hilt, German blade.

2) 1600-50, Scottish hilt, German blade.

3) Early 17th Cent., Scottish hilt, German blade.

4) 17th Cent., Scottish hilt, German blade.

5) Early 18th Cent., Stirling hilt, German Blade.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I think the one thing that comes across from my two previous posts is that German blades were being imported commercially and/or brought in personally from the earliest phases of the style that is recognizable as Scottish. This would seem to reinforce the idea that the basket as a concept may indeed have its origins in Germany and that the idea was brought to Scotland by returning mercenaries and general commercial trading enterprise.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Paul,
I found the Loch Voil reference in a google reference while trying to locate data on Rob Roys actual sword. I will try to renavigate and get more detail to you (there was monumental volume of more popular and modern aspects of Scottish material which though intriguing typically defies the more applicable historic data ). It seems most of the varying makers of the reproduction items apply a wide range of historical versions of many of the legendary tales).

I am unfortunately nearing the age where many of my stories of years ago weave into a bit of blur in recalling events that most probably have been embellished in my own mind Combining this well established 'grandfather malady' ( I have 5 grandkids!) in stories being recounted to an imaginative and most creative romantic writer such as Sir Walter Scott, would certainly lend well to magnificent tales, but do little for actual history!
This sort of situation in well established here in the U.S. in the 'wild west' (where I have been travelling the past 6 months) in the hugely distorted stories of the gunfighters particularly. Much of this legend was created by the sensationalizing of writers....wonderful stories...but rather shallow in the true history in most cases. Despite this, in most cases, the figures themselves were outstanding in thier own right, often without the embellished stories.

Norman, very well done ! Thank you for adding the captioned detail so we can see the variations in these great examples noted. It does seem that the Scots returning from campaigns in regions from Northern Europe to Eastern Europe certainly would have brought back weapons such as the basket hilt dusagge, especially if , as earlier noted in my Sinclair post, they were often supplied with weapons by the principles who retained them. I just came across an example of 17th c. dusagge from Germany with the large panel in the hilt that carried pierced heart shapes, much as this shape appears in many basket hilt saltire plates. Since Germany was the predominant source for the blades on Scottish swords, we may presume that this established relationship resulted from the equally predominant association militarily with Germany.

All best regards,
Jim

[Paul Macdonald]

Aye, Solingen steel was widely regarded as the best in Europe at the time, and was up there with the best Spanish Toledo steel.

Most Scottish basket hilt blades carry some form of Solingen `running wolf` mark, as well as the famous "Andrea Ferrara" legend in many variants of spelling.

This realistically meant little more than a stamped sign of "quality", but you would really have had to known which forge or maker your blade came from to determine specific blade quality, rather than rely upon a generic name that any maker could (and often did) stamp into a blade.

German blades were bought in batches by Scottish swordmakers, who then made the hilts, grips, pommels and assembled all parts. The best hilt makers bought the best blades to complete their quality weapon. Just take a look at the outstanding quality of blades on any original Walter Allan hilt or those by any other reknowned maker.

Putting a poor blade on a quality hilt would equate to putting a 1litre diesel engine in a Ferrari. And good drivers just dinnae want that!

All the best,

Macdonald

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Paul,
Found the reference to Loch Vail in "Scotland Illustrated, in a series of views taken expressly for this work". by William Beattie M.D. (London, 1847, p.91). The author claims that the true incident took place at Rob Roys brothers home in Balquihidder. Apparantly Charles Stewart of Ardshiel was taking what amounts to a shortcut through the property, and ended up in conversation and subsequent quarrel with MacGregor. When a duel became imminent, both parties were furnished with 'an Andrea Ferrara'. When blood was drawn by the cut to the chin, the fight stopped and MacGregor stormed up the glen, and threw his broadsword into Loch Vail, nearly opposite Stronvarr House.

This is of course paraphrased text from item found in the google search.
In reviewing the text, it would seem that swords were provided to both combatants, and if the event did indeed occur, and Rob Roy threw a sword into the lake, it was not his own personal sword.

It does seem that there are numerous variations to the final contests of Rob Roy, as well as to his last days.

I hope this will at least resolve the Loch Vail sword event.

All the best,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Paul,

I thank you for your detailed reply, re. the discovery of the MacGragor sword, it is very fascinating, and could have ended in a tragic manner , had not the sword been rescued from the byre before it was too far gone.

I also thank you for answering the question re. the lining of the hilt. It makes sense to protect the hand from any ivading bars!

When you mentioned Sherrifmuir, I thought of the painting hanging in Elien-Donan, of the McRaes dancing on the rooftop the night before the battle.

Jim,
The story of the swords being given to the combatants seems to me a bit questionable. ...Would have thought that MacGregor would not have gone walking out without wearing his own.
My grandfather always used to say: "when it's fair, take a coat, When it's raining, please yourself.."
and I think this could be altered somewhat to cover the sword in those times.
(This is pure speculation on my part.)
Also for a swordsman to throw Any good blade into the loch seems to me rather unlikely but having said that, I wasn't there to see what happened!!
If I Had been, and he Did, I'd have marked the spot Very carefully!!

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Richard,
Very good observation, and actually in responding with the detail from that particular reference, it was placed in the sense that this account, is indeed quite questionable. It may well be remembered however, that although the official proscription of weapons did not take place until after the '45, at least not in the degree typically recorded, there was a great deal of tension in Scotland in the times between the '15 and the '45. MacGregor had been in a great deal of trouble, and being in his 60's in 1734, probably no longer regularly wore his weapons. Naturally, the veracity of this depends on which account or literature you are reading.

In reviewing this particular account, my suggestion was that MacGregor, probably would not have thrown a sword into the lake, even if it wasn't his own. The suggestion in the account that he did, was probably added to amplify his anger and dramatize his realization that he was no longer the stalwart warrior he had been.

Though I question the accuracy of this reference, it was included here to establish it as a matter of record in the discussion, and that is clearly disputable.

I completely agree, I'm extremely glad that Paul pursued the location of this most important sword and rescued it from further deterioration. It makes my heart glad to see these wonderful old warriors saved!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Paul, you mentioned in one of your post about the thickness of the steel used for baskets, never having handled an old sword what kind of thickness are we talking about and in the manufacture of baskets was the weight of the basket manipulated in such a way as to determine the point of balance of the sword to suit an individual owner? By the way teetotal isn't contagious, even the Glasgow strain, so maybe we could get together over a coffee pot sometime.
Regards,
Norman.

"Biadh is deoch do MhacCormaig"
"Food and Drink for McCormick"
Inscription above the door to Moy castle, Isle of Mull, in recognition of the help given to Murdoch, 6th MacLaine of Lochbuie by McCormick swordsmen in capturing the castle, c1540.

[Tim Simmons]

Aye okay pal mines a pint of heavy! whats wrong with Glasgow. I am not a Scot by birth, only schooled there, just had to join in.

[Norman McCormick]

"There's nuthin the metter wi Glesga, ah jist don't like it goin roon an roon"!!!
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

BTW Tim which school ?

[Pukka Bundook]

Jim,

I thank you for your reply, and was not intending in any way to appear to be "squashing" what you had to say.
This whole subject is so very interesting, and by nature bound to have much folklore and variations in it. This is what makes it so interesting!....trying to sort out truth from fiction.
If it was all plain and straight-forward it would not be half so compelling.
(After all, when did we last enjoy searching when we knew the answers already?!)

There have been some beutiful swords shown on this thread! thanks for sharing!!
I have no Scottish basket hilted swords. (Only a home-made dirk) I Nearly bought one years ago in York, but the guard was "gai sair" on the knuckles!

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

This is a S-hilt. I would love to here what the most current theory on the significance of the S. (Stirling?, Stuart? simple protection?).

Hi Jeff,
Trying to discover more on the 'S' element in hilt construction, and in checking Whitelaw, Plate III, #2 is remarkably similar to your hilt on this one. It is captioned that this sword was signed by John Allan Sr. who worked in Doune, c.1714.(p.283). This is of course a Stirling hilt.

It is interesting that these S shaped elements appear to mirror each other, with the opposite one being of course reversed. It would seem that if this was intended to be a symbolic letter, it would have been correctly positioned on either side. Interestly in another source, I found a Glasgow hilt also using the S elements. The earlier ribbon hilt forms also carried these S shapes though in the much heavier strips.

In "Scottish Swords and Dirks" by John Wallace (1970, #24) the author notes regarding the S, "...people have considered this to have a Jacobite connection (i.e. S for Stuart). Alternatively it is S for Stirling. Both theories are unlikely however".

This is yet another of the mysteries of these swords, which includes the pierced shapes in the saltire plates, the concentric circles, zig zags and other designs and motif on the hilts. While it would seem that the sources I have noted seem to suggest these 'S's are simply structural connecting elements, it would be interesting to hear of other notes or comments on them.

Really is a beauty Jeff!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jim,

I thank you for your reply, and was not intending in any way to appear to be "squashing" what you had to say.
This whole subject is so very interesting, and by nature bound to have much folklore and variations in it. This is what makes it so interesting!....trying to sort out truth from fiction.
If it was all plain and straight-forward it would not be half so compelling.
(After all, when did we last enjoy searching when we knew the answers already?!)

There have been some beutiful swords shown on this thread! thanks for sharing!!
I have no Scottish basket hilted swords. (Only a home-made dirk) I Nearly bought one years ago in York, but the guard was "gai sair" on the knuckles!

Richard.

No problem Richard! I did not perceive that at all.
You have hit the nail on the head on the researching of these weapons...it is truly an adventure that is indeed compelling and you are exactly right, a complete joy in discovering answers to the countless questions and mysteries. While the folklore can be confusing from a historic view, one cannot deny the lore of Scotland is truly magnificent, making the search indescribably enjoyable, to the point where one often forgets exactly what the search was for,at least for me.

There are truly some beautiful swords posted here, and it is great to be able to admire them as well as learn more on thier history.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Some more baskets. From the top.

1) Early 17th Cent., Scottish hilt, German blade.

2) 1600-50, Scottish hilt, German blade.

3) Early 17th Cent., Scottish hilt, German blade.

4) 17th Cent., Scottish hilt, German blade.

5) Early 18th Cent., Stirling hilt, German Blade.

In looking at these basket hilts, it seems that #1 and #3 are of the form typically term 'ribbon hilts, and sometimes either snouted or beaknosed for the vestigial remains of cross quillon that remain . It seems like these are usually considered from about the third quarter of the 17th century to about the beginning of the 18th. (Wallace #20).

While nearly all Scottish basket hilts seem to have been mounted with German blades, there is one of this type and of this period with a contemporary French heavy cavalry sword blade ("Culloden: Sword and the Sorrows" p.44, 1:45).

Best regards,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Jim,

Re. the German blades often found on these swords,
Do you know if those blades cut down from the longer "Claymore" type , and made into basket hilt swords when the fashion changed, were these earlier blades too made mostly in Germany?

(There must have been an easier way to ask that question!...I'm in a rush and my brain freezes!)

All the best!

R.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jim,

Re. the German blades often found on these swords,
Do you know if those blades cut down from the longer "Claymore" type , and made into basket hilt swords when the fashion changed, were these earlier blades too made mostly in Germany?

(There must have been an easier way to ask that question!...I'm in a rush and my brain freezes!)

All the best!

R.

Nuthin' worse than the dreaded brain freeze Richard! I have learned to exercise extreme caution with frozen margaritas

Excellent question on the 'two handed swords'. According to Blair ("The Early Basket Hilt in Britain", p.378) these were in use from 15th century until the 17th century in Scotland. It would seem likely that these came to Scotland from the Continent as well, and most probably Germany. Though it is unclear when the two hand sword went out of date, Blair also notes that most modern writers suggest the early 17th c. It is known that some of these were still in use as late as Culloden, and there is an example shown in "Culloden: The Sword and the Sorrows" (p.23, 1:2) with the double shell guard. It is noted that the blade is probably from an earlier sword and rehilted to correspond with current fashion, a trend apparantly established as early as the rehilting of Wallace's sword in 1505. It is noted further that the blade is from either Solingen or Passau.

In "Scottish Swords & Dirks" (Wallace, pp.11, 24) it is noted that "..many claymores were broken up as they went out of fashion and the blades ground down for use with the basket hilt". While this statement seems convincing, it seems agreed in other sources that considerable numbers of these large two handed swords remained with families, and may well account for those brought out for Culloden.

Wallace also notes that "...a Setzordnung of 1628" lists the blades made for foreign markets included the broad double edged blades made for Scotland were termed 'grosse schotten' ("Broad Scots").

I think that the use of the larger broadsword blades for mounting in basket hilts would have been more a matter of circumstance or preference, and if an individual preferred a basket hilt this might have been done. In the case of broken blades, much as in the case of a blade being salvaged for mounted for a dirk, so might these have been used for a basket hilt. No good blade would be wasted as no Scot would forsake proud steel.
I think there is no more heart rending thing than reading "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden", E.Andrew Mowbray, 1971, who wrote and illustrated an account of the travesty of a fence railing at Twickenham House fashioned from the blades of the swords of the fallen Scots on that tragic day.

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Thanks all for the comments so far. before we go on with this thread I think it would be good to review the basics, starting with the hilt types. I will start with what I can find in the literature (I will plagiarise heavily from the texts and will put all references at the end after working my way through the different hilt types). It would be great if the expertise of Paul, Jim, Eljay and the others could add on.

Starting with the earliest mature form;

The English Hilt (aka; Irish Hilt, Twysden hilt, Highland Hilts). These hilts are thought to predate the more familiar Scottish hilts. They were in use around the mid portion of the 16th century. They came to be associated with the Highland Scots and Irish. Oakeshott reasons this on the fact that a lot of Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster bringing a number of Highland mercenaries into Ireland during the subsequent wars. This form is the same as the Sword of Sir William Twysden (1566-1629) of Royden Hall, Kent (Currently in the Met. New York). I think it was Claude Blair who first started referring to this style as 'Twysden Hilt' this name seems to have caught on including the current best reference on baskethilts by Mazansky, as previously mentioned by Jim. Rather than describe the hilt I will try to post a number of photo's First is my Backsword, next is the Twysden sword and third is another example.

[Jeff D]

From the Englishhilt a number of styles developed. In the mid to late 17th century in the Western Highlands the Ribbonhilt (aka beaknose). Mazansky notes that there are four consistent features. 1) a residual quillion to form a beaknose, 2) Broad flat bars (the ribbon), 3) An S filler, 4) A flat ring that the side guards attatch to which then curves around 2/3rds of the base of the pommel.

Unfortunately I have to get ready for hockey and will try to add more tomorrow.

All the Best
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Fantastic! and well done Jeff. This is exactly where I hoped this would go. To focus on the various forms and thier development. As noted, the Twysden is quite early, and the blank saltire plates and connecting strips of the general form apparantly continue on many of the later English hilts in the 18th century. The ribbon hilt, as noted, seems about mid 17th century, though most that I have seen would seem c.1680-90.

I am curious on the pierced saltire plates and it seems they might have begun with influence from the pierced hearts I mentioned on some German dusagge basket hilt plates. I would like to discover also if possible, were the Glasgow hilts the earliest to use the pierced shapes?

Thank you Jeff!
All the best,
Jim

[Chris Evans]

Gentlemen,

I have been following this thread with great interest and would like to say that it is extremely informative. The level of contribution, that is scholarship, is terrific.

For those who are in possesion of antiques, it would be nice if they could provide the vital stats of the weapons, like weight, blade length, width, position of COP etc.

Keep is up. I am learning heaps.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Chris! and that is an excellent suggestion on adding the stats on weapons posted. What is great about these type of discussions focused on a particular topic is that we can all pool resources, share the weapons owned privately, as well as seen in museums, and thereby all learn together. Thank you for the kind words, and the very helpful suggestion.

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,
Lets get through the basics and see if the forum can come up with an answer (ie. I don't have an answer but will keep looking ).

Hi Chris,
Hopefully I can dig out the swords and get a few answers for you.

All the Best
Jeff

[Jeff D]

The next group are the 'Thin-barred simple hilts'. There appears to be some controversy whether these developed from the Twysden hilts or in parallel with them from thin bared precursors.
This type evolved into the hilt types we are more familiar with. Using images from Mazansky you can see the evolution. 1 the earlest and 7 the latest.

(mods is it possible to organize the pictures in sequence as it makes more sense that way/ thanks /Jeff)

[Jeff D]

This Brings us to the 18-19th century with the 'Conventional hilts'. The garrison towns of Glasgow and Stirling became the major centers of manufacturing.
Prior to 1745 they supplied both Hanoverian and jacobite factions, after they supplied the Highland regiments and British cavalry. Most of the hilts were made in a cottage industry fashion being produced in small shops in the areas. A few big names are associated with each area as well.

Glasgow Hilts;
The family most associated with these are the Simpsons (no relation to Bart, Jessica or OJ). Quoting Mazansky ' The bars are of flattened rectangular section. They have deep flutes flanked by engraved line on each side' . He goes on in much more detail about the shields and guards as well. Below is 3 Glasgow hilts, the flat grooved bars are clearly seen. The picture with 6 hilts is from Whitelaw all signed Glasgow makers. note that Fig 3. shows that the rule doesn't always hold.

[Jeff D]

Stirling hilts;

The Allan family is the most famous hilt makers from this area. Unlike the Glasgow hilts these tend to be more varied 'artistic'. The bars are round to flattened but lack the grooves.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Jeff! These illustrations and your explanations help a lot. So the 'Glasgow' hilts seem to carry more traditional form, and the one of the key features would be the fluted and incribed bars.
The Stirling is as you note, more rounded bars and artistic free form. As you note these were 'garrison' towns which of course were British occupied and it seems Stirling was closer to the English border. Possibly more of the freeform resulted with more military oriented styling for instance the blank saltire plates and so on. It seems mid 18th century there were more grid type forms and functionally developed examples that evolved in Birmingham, in England,along with other horsemans swords.

By the 1770's I think of the regimental pattern that had the tall conical pommel from Birmingham, I think the suppliers were Drury and Jeffries.

All the best,
Jim