Definitive Warfare

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Ian

...or maybe the Sultan was being duplicitous saying one thing to his enemy while at the same time having one of his Panglima do the opposite.

Ian.

In this case, his war minister might have given the order, but the Sultan and Prime minister were more concerned with keeping the peace and survival of the population during this period. Panglima Hassan and his followers didn't want to pay their taxes so they isolated themselves on their mountain. The death toll at Bagsak was grossly under recorded, Moro families were known to fight together and die rather than surrender. I'd question if the facts were revealed would it have been considered a war crime.
Historically, in regards to duplicity, one could write the Bates Treaty was written by a general and approved by the president but meant to be broken, an instrument to forestall eventual war with the Moros until after the Philippine American War ended, which is exactly what happened, once it was declared over against the Katipunan, troops marched into the Moro territories in an unconstitutional undeclared war with Sultanates that were considered sovereign. There were whaler ships from the US trading in Moro waters in the 1700s and military expeditions asking permission to sail in the 1800s. Ever wonder why there are so many kris, barong, etc...floating around, but once they dry up of course the prices are going to go up, candidly speaking and without crypt.

[Bill M]

This is fascinating. Learning more about the Moro. I am re-reading Cato and he says that the Datus had considerable power, an ability to raise large armies quickly, -- sometimes more power than a panglima or even a sultan -- as many as 10,000 men.

Seems like the Moro did a lot of fighting among themselves and never really unified their tribes under one common leader. If they had been able to unify, they would have been a far more formidable force. I am impressed that they were still able to hold off the Spanish for almost 400 years.

There are far more erudite and knowledgeable people on this forum and I would like to know more. Pity there are such few books written about this marvelous people.

Can anyone recommend books other than Cato and "Swish of the Kriss?"

[Ian]

Mabagani:

History supports what you say about the Bates Treaty (no disrespect to Rick's ancestor). It was an American stalling tactic to avoid a further region of armed conflict until the fighting with Aguinaldo and the Katipunan in the north had been settled. The U.S. apparently intended all along to return to the "Moro problem" if necessary.

Another point of note were the gross errors in translation of this treaty from English into Tagalog. The English version speaks of U.S. sovereignty over the Sulu Archipelago, while Tausug version speaks of the U.S. offering protection only. This echoed earlier discrepancies in the Spanish treaties with the Sulu Sultanate. Not surprisingly, these treaties have created an ongoing difference of opinion that has persisted into present times with Moro disputes over the Philippines Government's authority in that region.

Some of the bloody fighting on Jolo, especially under the command of "Black Jack" Pershing, was called into question even in the early 1900s. The high actual death toll at Bagsak (not 300 as officially reported but several thousand, many women and children) was known to U.S. authorities and did eventually come out more publicly. A U.S. Congressional Inquiry was called for to investigate possible atrocities, and I believe it was approved by a House vote, but hearings were never held. General Pershing went on to other things.

This is obviously a touchy subject for many who are sympathetic with the Moro position. Let's not go any further down that path, though, lest we stray into a political minefield and get this thread locked!

As far as prices going higher, I'm afraid you're right -- it has already happened.

Ian.

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

In this case, his war minister might have given the order, but the Sultan and Prime minister were more concerned with keeping the peace and survival of the population during this period. Panglima Hassan and his followers didn't want to pay their taxes so they isolated themselves on their mountain. The death toll at Bagsak was grossly under recorded, Moro families were known to fight together and die rather than surrender. I'd question if the facts were revealed would it have been considered a war crime.
Historically, in regards to duplicity, one could write the Bates Treaty was written by a general and approved by the president but meant to be broken, an instrument to forestall eventual war with the Moros until after the Philippine American War ended, which is exactly what happened, once it was declared over against the Katipunan, troops marched into the Moro territories in an unconstitutional undeclared war with Sultanates that were considered sovereign. There were whaler ships from the US trading in Moro waters in the 1700s and military expeditions asking permission to sail in the 1800s. Ever wonder why there are so many kris, barong, etc...floating around, but once they dry up of course the prices are going to go up, candidly speaking and without crypt.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Mark,

I'm only responding the way I was provoked from the previous comments that was directed towards me. I've been checking out this forum from time to time for years, much as I check countless other forums. It's fun to read internet forums when I'm bored. Now, you're threatening to ban me for having a regular poster attack me? Am I just gonna have this fool talk to me that way the same way he talked to the other new members in the past as well? should I cower and bow down to him since he's a respected member? Sorry but you got the wrong guy. Don't threaten me; if you don't like me and you're feeling like god, do it. Let it be known tho, this post will be posted on the main forum.
have a good day

Lighten up, dude. The idea is to enjoy our time here. Calling someone a "fool" is not acceptable, and you know it.

Take the chip off your shoulder and relax.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Mark,

I'm only responding the way I was provoked from the previous comments that was directed towards me. I've been checking out this forum from time to time for years, much as I check countless other forums. It's fun to read internet forums when I'm bored. Now, you're threatening to ban me for having a regular poster attack me? Am I just gonna have this fool talk to me that way the same way he talked to the other new members in the past as well? should I cower and bow down to him since he's a respected member? Sorry but you got the wrong guy. Don't threaten me; if you don't like me and you're feeling like god, do it. Let it be known tho, this post will be posted on the main forum.
have a good day

Really Willie, what ever gave you the idea that i was a respected member around here. Depends on who you ask i suppose.
Mark is absolutely right about not rising to the bait, however it seems that it might be you who is baiting me and i am having a hard time just letting it stand. I have re-read my remarks to you and cannot find "attack" in them, yet you seem to have come on this forum on the attack and you have certainly attacked me personally by calling me a fool (a very underrated and misunderstood tarot card BTW ). I have merely been encouraging you to get off the attack and share some of your knowledge that you have only up til now alluded to having. We are all here because we are starved for real knowledge about these weapons, not because we are bored and have nothing better to do than stirr up trouble. Again, i look forward to your sharing of the great wealth of knowledge on the Moro, which unfortunately, up til now, you have been keeping to yourself.

[Mark]

... in three ...

[mross]

Can I steer this back toward the discussion of twisted core swords? I accepted Willie W's statement that twisted cores where reserved for panglimas based on what I know of metallurgical technique. It may or may not be correct but it is an interesting hypothesis. As I understand the Moro’s they where very aware of position. I believe in the world of the keris there where certain attributes of it that where reserved. Is this correct? Is it not unreasonable to assume that aspects of a kris could follow these same guidelines? That having been said; pattern welding is not an easy task. It requires great skill and time to get the welds correct. Much more so then simple laminated welding. In laminated welding you are folding like steel over and welding it to itself. In pattern welding you are welding unlike metal together. So making the twisted core would be a time consuming and material consuming process. That means expensive. The twisted core would not be what a middle or warrior class Moro could afford. So that bumps it up to the higher ups. I have been collecting and reading about Moro swords for a bit. I have seen only a very few twisted core blades, most of them here and one blade on Erik’s site. Has anyone done a study to see what aspects if any of the sword where reserved and for what rank? From Cato one gets the impression that gold was for the Sultan. There is also a bit of conflict here because I understand the Prophet Mohammed was against gold ornamentation for men. So this seems to me an interesting area to look into and one that could expand our love and appreciation for the Moro sword.

[Rick]

To help bring this thread back to the twist core discussion I present to you a blade of very complex twist core construction recently polished by Phil Tom .

[BSMStar]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do you find these? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm better now.

[nechesh]

That's a beauty Rick. I hope you are pleased with the polishing job. I don't remember the hilt on this one. Could we see a shot of that as well?

[mross]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do you find these? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm better now.

What he said!!

[Rick]

Kakatua
You'd cry even more if you knew what I paid for this 'European Sword' .
Ahh , the good old days of Ebay .

[MABAGANI]

Is there a similar pattern among keris, my first thought are stars...

[kai]

(no link needed - didn't saw the pic of the hilt on page 2)

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Rick

Kakatua
You'd cry even more if you knew what I paid for this 'European Sword' .
Ahh , the good old days of Ebay .

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

[Rick]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

Is there a similar pattern among keris, my first thought are stars...

This keris pamor is kind of in the ballpark; I've forgotten the name of this pamor much to my shame .

What I think we're looking at on the Moro piece are three separate twisted cores welded together as they merge past the sorsoran and run down to the tip. Then a layer welded edge has been applied to the outside of the core.

[LabanTayo]

one of my twist cores......

[The Double D]

Laban Tayo,

Awesome, that almost looks like a snake crawling across my screen...bee you tee full!!!

[Flavio]

What a beautiful swords!!!! I need one!!!!

[mross]

Originally Posted by Rick

This is kind of in the ballpark; I've forgotten the name of this pamor much to my shame .

What I think we're looking at on the Moro piece are three separate twisted cores welded together as they merge past the sorsoran and run down to the tip. Then a layer welded edge has been applied to the outside of the core.

This must have been quite demanding work to execute successfully.

Yes, the pattern looks like a 3 twist core, and it is very demanding to get it right. Looks like twisted cores are coming out of the woodwork. I like it. There may be one with my name on it somewhere! Still, they seem scarce enough to be special. There are many examples of Datu class weapons that are for the most part plain blades with superior handles. So I still think there is something special about the Moro's who owned these twisted cores. Does anybody have sources that may shed some light on this? Bill, what about Dave and Lonna?

[LabanTayo]

Originally Posted by Rick

This is kind of in the ballpark; I've forgotten the name of this pamor much to my shame .

Rick,
I have a Moro Kris with this same pamor in its center panel. I posted pics on the old forum of the kris. Hopefully the Indo collectors can name the pamor for us.

[nechesh]

Is that pamor lar gangsir?

[Rick]

Okay , I went through my little book Pamor Eksotik Tosan Aji; the closest picture to the pamor shown on the 'keris' seems to be a variation on Unthuk Banyu "Water Bubbles" ; here is a more traditional representation of Unthuk Banyu.

According to Tammens who calls it 'foam bubbles' .
Its qualities are positive ; it is considered rare but it is not select and can be owned by anyone .

I await correction .
Hi Dave, I see you posted while I was doing the same .
Here is Pamor Eksotik's illustration of Lar Gangsir (not too helpful)

[nechesh]

I hope Alan doesn't mind that i borrowed this image from his site.
An example of Lar Gangsir:

[Rick]

Hmmm ,
Sure looks the same as my first keris pamor .
I wonder why the Jawa book differs so much ?

[Bill]

Hey, George "Grumpy", I know you are lurking here. Why don't you post? Explain how the kris you own was made. By the way, I bought the brother of the one you own from a forum member.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Bill

Hey, George "Grumpy", I know you are lurking here. Why don't you post? Explain how the kris you own was made. By the way, I bought the brother of the one you own from a forum member.

?????

[Bill]

Bill, There is a smith in my area that has a kris like this one. He does pattern welding & mosaic damascus. Reads the forum, but doesn't post.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Rick

Okay , I went through my little book Pamor Eksotik Tosan Aji; the closest picture to the pamor shown on the 'keris' seems to be a variation on Unthuk Banyu "Water Bubbles" ; here is a more traditional representation of Unthuk Banyu.

According to Tammens who calls it 'foam bubbles' .
Its qualities are positive ; it is considered rare but it is not select and can be owned by anyone .

I await correction .
Hi Dave, I see you posted while I was doing the same .
Here is Pamor Eksotik's illustration of Lar Gangsir (not too helpful)

Rick, yours is pamor Untuk Banyu.
(Ref: Ensiklopedi Keris, Reference section, Pg:554).

Most of the twisted core are pamor Lar Gangsir. This pamor type have a few variations.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Bill

Bill, There is a smith in my area that has a kris like this one. He does pattern welding & mosaic damascus. Reads the forum, but doesn't post.

Hmmm... well Bill, if he could create something like this, I'm sure many would be interested (including myself). (I hope you're reading this... Mr smith reader who does not post).