Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

[spiral]

To add to the confusion most of the Nepali tourist kukri that look like that, even those being sold in Nepal are actually Chinese made fakes... & were even 10 years ago...

spiral

[Emanuel]

I am not at all convinced that these knives are make by the Yao, not considering the rest of that material culture. This knife type doesn't fit anything produced natively in East Africa. I am not yet aware of any single-edged knife with this blade, bolster and partial tang construction anywhere in Africa.

This knife type does, fit into North Indian and Central Asian material culture. Considering the large Gujarati Indian Diaspora in East Africa, I can certainly see these knives being sold in Mozambique from an Indian source. I cannot, however, see these as being made by East African smiths, it's not within their style

I would say look carefully at the blade profile and section, the bolster assembly, and the tang connection. Then look into the very peculiar stamps, which appear to be standardized.

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Here are a few more from Oriental-Arms labeled as Afghan or Pakistani.

[Emanuel]

Another one...

[Emanuel]

And a last one...

[Jampot10]

The identification is based purely on research using the British Museum. I'm relying on their archive accuracy but I find it compelling that they have several separate donors for very similar knives giving the same source location.

Copied from other thread.

I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers.
My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin.
I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but :

British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions.

Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation.

For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification.

The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century.

Please let me know your thoughts ?

[Emanuel]

Now here is a cruder form previously discussed on this forum and considered to be Afghan.

[Emanuel]

Some thoughts...

Note that the blade is very similar to some short Burmese dha knives in both profile and execution:
- single-edged
- slight droop towards the edge
- well executed fullers on the good example, but flat blade on cruder examples

Note the bolster construction which appears to borrow both from Nepalese khukri bolsters, and from Tibetan knives, with a rivet through the bolster well brushed and hidden.

The tang construction is unique in that the tang maintains the same section as the blade and is not hidden inside the handle, which has a slot to received it. So far, only the crude Afghan knife above features this tang construction. Otherwise the Tibetan knives feature slab/scale handles, while most khukri and Burmese handles have a hole inside to receive a narrower rat-tail tang. Khukri with slab/scale handles appear in WWII with the British pattern MK2.

The circular decorative motif on the handle and sometimes scabbard straps is not a helpful feature in establishing the origin of these knives as it has already been shown many many times on this forum that it is extremely widespread to different cultures around the world.

The stamped markings at the base of the blade are like nothing else. They closely resemble flags or maritime symbols to me. The marks are repeated 2-3 times and look like they were struck by the same punch. This suggests a standardized manufacture to me, not simple village production.

Emanuel

[spiral]

I obviously always thought these NWF, Assam, Burma maybe surrounding regions...

That being Due to there details of manufacture... the only discrepancy being the exposed partial tang, that is historically usually European..

But personally ill accept Malawi etc. for these... as 3 out of 4 are provenanced to separate donors, all of whom only donated items from that region...

Unless or Until someone proves there from the Yao in Burma or some Indian manufacture etc.

Indian manufacture in Africa could make more sense to me?

But until that time I have to go with available apparently provenaced pieces originally from 3 separate collections, unless some one can dig up another pre.ww2 reference or reliable provenance to prove the BM have got 3 accessions incorrectly listed to donors or they are made by Indian smiths in Africa, etc.etc.

When I look at other African Yao stuff I see no similarity... Strangely the Lao Dao from Burma looks closer.

Who can find more evidence... there must be other old collections with these?

Fernando... Are there any Portuguese museum collections of relevance you can access?

spiral

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by spiral

So Yao or at least "in the style of" knives... Fascinating!

Who would have guessed Malawi! south Africa. {The continent not the country...} Seems I was miles out with Burma etc....

I am with you Spiral!

[Martin Lubojacky]

When it is marked out by such important museum (and motivated by donor´s legends), it is difficult to object. But, in any case, there is something strange in it. Look at another yao knives, which are more conformable to i.g. Shona style. Rivets instead of tongue in that part of Africa ...(?), such collar .... As far as me - the overal shape is more similar to Japanese fishermen boat knives (I knowingly talk a bit; I would vote to Burma or something Central Asian), than to African styles which I met till now. But, the life is neverending study...

I mentioned following story here before, so I apologize: cca 20 years ago I have given my nice knife from Finland to my friend, who was travelling to Ongota tribe in southern Ethiopia. My friend was linguist and he studdied those tribes. Once he was present to the childbirth there and so - he became something like godfather. So I gave him the Finland knife when he was going to visit the willage and to call on the boy after years - since he did not have any suitable gift with him. I hope nobody will donate this Finland knife to any museum as tradditional Ongota knife. I know this differs from the Yao case and I do not want to flout authorities, but, there could be something similar in it ...

[Andrew]

In my personal opinion, these are not continental SEA. The general blade profile, fullering and ivory handles are strikingly similar to knives from the region, but the differences are more edifying--the partially exposed tang and bolsters are definitively not correct for that region.

Other than this observation of questionable value, I am clueless as to origin.

[Sajen]

I still have problems to believe that this knives are from Africa, museums are often wrong by descriptions.
Nepal could be a facility, look for example this ram-dao taken from this forum: http://www.allempires.com/forum/foru...TID=29611&PN=3
See special the mark on the blade.

Regards,
Detlef

[Tim Simmons]

I am with you Detlef. African knife makers make the most crude and some of the most wonderful quality knives but this is not one from Africa. How and why the museum has it wrong I do not know?

[colin henshaw]

I don't see any way these knives could have been made in Sub-Saharan Africa. Maybe some made their way to East Africa from the Indian sub-continent, either as gifts to native chiefs, or trade items etc. The other possibility is simply that the museum got their attributions mixed up somehow.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I am with you Detlef. African knife makers make the most crude and some of the most wonderful quality knives but this is not one from Africa. How and why the museum has it wrong I do not know?

You guys are forgetting the colonial powers at play here...

[spiral]

I certainly perceive the tang style as European , but if Wikipedia is to be believed the Yao resisted, The Brits, Germans & Portuguese. {If so they did well...}

They were Muslim slave & ivory traders trading with the Arabs... If this is correct perhaps they where originally traded there by the Arabs, along with the guns they gave them?

Obviously the Wicky article may not be entirely correct either...

I do believe they were found in Yao territory, but I don't believe the Yao made them.

spiral

[Martin Lubojacky]

I think there were deep (slave and ivory) expeeditions to the African interior organized from Zanzibar (under influence of Omani Arabs) in 19th century. In Stone Town you can find collection of mainly Congo weapons brought at that time

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by spiral

I certainly perceive the tang style as European , but if Wikipedia is to be believed the Yao resisted, The Brits, Germans & Portuguese. {If so they did well...}

They were Muslim slave & ivory traders trading with the Arabs... If this is correct perhaps they where originally traded there by the Arabs, along with the guns they gave them?

Obviously the Wicky article may not be entirely correct either...

I do believe they were found in Yao territory, but I don't believe the Yao made them.

spiral

Interesting too are some connections. The Yao areas were Annexed by the Brits in the late 19th century, formally a little after. They too had Sikh soldiers in there as their forces....
Interesting are the blade marks on clearly African Weapons, i.e; the Kaskara and the axe of Tim's and also Jen's Tulwar...
There was a massive amount of trade throughout the regions...Yao hands may have made these but under direction of EU occupation I am sure.
With a guess for consideration too, the Malawi facial tattoos of the region in most cases, loosely bear a resemblance to the blade stamps on these knives.

[spiral]

Interesting stuff chaps!

Many of the NW & NWF type kukri bolster with the hidden rivet {of the same style as these knives.} were probably made by Sikhs....

Another factor as well as the possibility of Arab traders would be the Scottish based " African Lakes Company Limited" in 1878, to support missionaries & trade in ivory & store goods along the shores of Lake Nyasa and in the Lower Shire Valley in the late 1870s and early 1880s. They were heavily based on river transport.

They apparently wouldn't give the natives guns in trade {unlike the Arab slave & ivory buyers.} But I wonder if they had something, to do with these? Whether made locally, {which I doubt, but I could be wrong.} imported on made by imported labour... After all anywhere the British were the Indian traders & crafts people soon followed.

spiral

[Jampot10]

Yes Spiral - I have really enjoyed how this discussion has developed.

Arab influence in East Africa was huge from the mid 18th century onwards. Driven initially around the slave trade by the middle east Sultanates. If you look at Zanzibar for instance this was effectively controlled by the Sultan of Oman from around 1700 - 1890 when it became a British protectorate. Dar-Es- Salaam was originally an Arab built city in 1865. If they're building cities, I really can't see why these weapons couldn't have been produced by Arabs in Africa.

I do understand though why those with more knowledge than me point out that these are not normal blades associated with African tribal production.

Again open to interpretation but have a look at the pictures below, - the screen capture is Arabic script and the meaning of the word is "Attack" . Is it just me or is there similarity to the stamps on one of the blades ? Even if my translation is wrong it would seem to be Arabic script - maybe someone on the forum knows more ?

As a last thing I showed my knives to an established collector who lives in my village. The majority of this discussion has been about the Ivory one so far but his opinion was that the larger knife might actually be horn handled not wooden. This may well impact again on location of manufacture. Apparently there is a weapons event soon and my friend is going to take them up to show to his colleagues so this might generate more to talk about.
J

[Tim Simmons]

Most interesting. Also a great amount of WW! Indian troops in East Africa. The WW1 Africa theater is sadly not well documented by historians.

[colin henshaw]

A small piece of interest on this subject (though perhaps not very relevant) - the famous African guide to several European 19th century explorers - "Sidi Mubarak Bombay" was a Yao tribesman. He spent several years in India as a young man, after having been captured as a slave when a child...

[spiral]

Jampot, I can see why you sy it but if it was Arabic script, many people on the website could read it....

That's interesting Colin...

Found a few photos & drawings of him, including this one hoping to see him wearing such a knife. {longshot obviously.}

But the visible sword, once again just looks European rather than African.

But all good knowledge & grist to the mill as they say in Yorkshire...

Spiral

[ariel]

I was also convinced that these knives were SE Asian.
But to deny their Malawi origin, I have to deny
A. Reputation and expertise of the British Museum, and
B. Testimony of 3 separate witnesses (donors) attributing each one of them to the same area in Africa.


Also, we are unaware of any other place in the world where similar type is found, weakening theory of their imported origin.

[spiral]

I totally agree with points A & B Ariel, & more or less agree with your third point. {Not that that rules it out.} Many wonderfull things made in Sheffield that many are/were unaware of Kachin Dow etc.

But could produced in Africa by Immigrant workers? That seems quite likely to me?

Failing that, produced in Africa by locals after an suitable apprenticeship would seem the only other likely possibility?


spiral

[colin henshaw]

Interestingly, this type of knife also appears on the National Museum of Scotland website, as coming from Malawi. H'mm, perhaps a rethink is required...

[Tim Simmons]

I can see how over generations of museum staff might perpetuate an original cataloging error, if this is the case? Future reference could then also be wrong. Having worked for the British Museum I know that not all ethnographic collection and donations {especially Africa ealier in the 20th century} were accurately recorded at the time of coming into collection, but often done many years later. This is a very confusing situation. The ram doa is surely an Asian artifact. What are we to make of the knives that are clearly derived from it, we cannot deny that?

[Gavin Nugent]

Tim, I think you were on the right path originally in this thread, meaning African.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

You also mention Ram Dao, but they are95% heavier forward curved weapons with the absence of such markings, nor are the markings to blade or hilt shared by other weapons of the regions of India or SEA.

Its hard to ignore the Kaskara stamp I presented when it looks so much like these;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=burma

There is also the pommel in post 56, page two here, nothing Asian in its shape;http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khodmi

I am certain Central Asia can be dismissed.

To better support the origins, those with them could subject the hilts to scientific examination, ie African or Asian ivory....of course one could refute the data says ivory was heavily traded but I think with all the information at hand the origins have been firmly placed for now and this may support Africa too.

If an Asian flavour is felt in this knife, which I see by profile, both the English and the Sikhs with them were heavily found in Burma...perhaps just an industrious Brit with other service abroad was making some coin on the side as it is not a pure African creation by style?

[ariel]

It is impossible to exclude outside influence, immigrant manufacturer or skills acquired elsewhere.
But let's agree that the place of production was in Malawi and that the construction is not purely SE Asian ( as per Andrew) and not Afghani.

I am even willing to go farther: the incredible uniformity of these knives, their radical distinctness from the traditional local examples and their closeness of dating may (may!) suggest a single shop, perhaps even short-lived.