Sword hilt for ID

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Fernando, still fascinated by the markings you have shown from the blade.

Me too, Jim; markings are one of the most captivating parts i find in weapons.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Where are they situated ...

At the forte, said the guy in the beginning

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... and any chance that close ups might show them in place? ...

I am trying; not an easy task, though. The owner's enthusiasm cooled down a lot when he realized this is no Islamic "medieval" sword

[fernando]

How about this being a stylized bird ... you know, artist's imagination.
... Like a totemic figure ?

Oh, forget it

It's just that i think i have seen this type of beak before; a deja vu thing ?!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

While I did agree in first impression in similarity to a toucan, the stretch to apply it to the Mexican eagle is as wrong headed as applying the Lattimer collection as examples of the bird. The Aztec mythology of Huitzilopochtli in no way included a toucan. It is true though that there were many tropical birds and colorful feathers well noted.

All in all (aside from the blade itself) a tourista middle eastern brass hilt is as viable an explanation as projecting the possibility to north and south America. The condor, certainly another bird used for sword hilts.

Cheers

GC

Actually I think the first impressions with regard to the toucan perspective in trying to approximate what type of bird this might be were simply that, though I was the one who expressed it. I appreciated your comment regarding that.

My suggestion regarding the appearance of the bird as far as what kind of bird it might represent suggested that perhaps the artisan who fashioned the bird might have been 'influenced' artistically by a bird of tropical regions in Mexico such as the toucan. In no way was my suggestion implying that the hilt was a National Audubon Society degree image of the toucan, simply noting the resemblance. This was very much the case with Mark's notes on the American eagle heads, notes for comparison, not exact matches.
There do seem to be notable similarities in the high relief feathers though, and again that feature in the Mexican emblem was presented in the same sense. Thus far it seems that the Americas are the most likely source for this sabre, though I would not discount Middle Eastern possibilities if I could think of any associated examples, and would look forward to seeing anything that would support the notion.

These comparisons are shown to suggest possible influences on a zoomorphic hilt which at this point remains indistinguishable and Fernando's point regarding artistic license is well placed.

It is always good to see constructive discussion in looking into the history of these, particularly when conflicting views are presented with such courtesy, a pleasure indeed. Often misinterpreted perceptions take place, and this is when this becomes most important.

Fernando, looking forward to more on the marks, and hope we might have some ideas come in that these might be linked to.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

If we (only) directed our steps to the possibilities of this hilt being the bust of an actual bird, what i find so far to have a similar figure are Calaus (Hornbills), namely the grey hornbill from Malabar and the Sub-Saarian hornbill.
Obviously this would be a 360º turn in all that has been discussed so far. But having no undeniable evidence, i am only taking care of not excluding other possibilities.
I once had a rustic sword made in (Ex-French Colonial) Africa, with a brass hilt undoubtedly imitating an European sabre, but with its pommel depicting a zoomorphic figure, apparently some species of hornbill.
In any case, this is an opportunity to share pictures of these splendid birds

..

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually I think the first impressions with regard to the toucan perspective in trying to approximate what type of bird this might be were simply that, though I was the one who expressed it. I appreciated your comment regarding that.

My suggestion regarding the appearance of the bird as far as what kind of bird it might represent suggested that perhaps the artisan who fashioned the bird might have been 'influenced' artistically by a bird of tropical regions in Mexico such as the toucan. In no way was my suggestion implying that the hilt was a National Audubon Society degree image of the toucan, simply noting the resemblance. This was very much the case with Mark's notes on the American eagle heads, notes for comparison, not exact matches.
There do seem to be notable similarities in the high relief feathers though, and again that feature in the Mexican emblem was presented in the same sense. Thus far it seems that the Americas are the most likely source for this sabre, though I would not discount Middle Eastern possibilities if I could think of any associated examples, and would look forward to seeing anything that would support the notion.

These comparisons are shown to suggest possible influences on a zoomorphic hilt which at this point remains indistinguishable and Fernando's point regarding artistic license is well placed.

It is always good to see constructive discussion in looking into the history of these, particularly when conflicting views are presented with such courtesy, a pleasure indeed. Often misinterpreted perceptions take place, and this is when this becomes most important.

Fernando, looking forward to more on the marks, and hope we might have some ideas come in that these might be linked to.

All the best,
Jim

Jim

It would be silly of me to repeat myself time and again but I will point out (again) that the Lattimer collection birds range wide with no exacting similarities aside from birds heads with feathers, I will add that the bird pommels are not Amerrican-centric and that the pommels were popular elsewhere (on the other side of the Atlantic). Relating them as American eagles in the Medicus book (which Mark brought up) again means all we are looking at is bird heads with feathers. One could bring Peterson's book out and see the same, or Neumann and see the same. Birds with feathers, yes but not of influences apparent in the sword being discussed and really very much not of the same genre of birds.

If I seem up in arms regarding the books being used as similarities and even said as exacting, I say get a grip. I could surely find similar feathers on Japanese or Chinese art, indeed across the globe. How many ways to depict feathers. I would venture not so many compared to the global use of them in art. Mark listed his exacting beak as found in the Hartzler book. I have posted a scan of that. I said and will continue to say phooey to that. Whatever None of the plates referenced were of raptors but there are eagles shown there.

Regarding the Mexican national bird and displays of it, also a circular opinion and apparent perception and I leave this with the thought others here may see tings with a better class of prescription pharmacueticals because I just don't see it. It is an eagle succeeding over a live snake. Pure and simple

Here is a crested toucan for you guys and you can tell me if it is American or not and what the origin might have been. Maybe it is more like Woody Woodpecker than an eagle and that would explain it.

Cheers

GC

[Jim McDougall]

LOL!!!
Well explained Glen, and your sense of humor outstanding! I appreciate your patient explanation, and it would appear that while I am chasing zebras to find the source of hoofbeats.........Fernando has completely nailed this case!!!! BRILLIANT NANDO!!!!
Its a hornbill!!!!!!! why the heck didnt I think of that.

I do recall that great discussion with Fernando, and with the instances of European style hilts in West Africa, especially with thier skills with brass, this may well be the solution.

All the best,
Jim

PS Loved the Woody Woodpecker analogy!!!! perfect!

[Atlantia]

OK, here's how I see this.
It's not an Eagle to me.
Also, the Toucan idea (and I know it wasn't a firm suggestion for this bird, but more an indication of a similar beak type) isn't as far out there as it might appear. The 'anatomical features' of the bird in the hilt are far closer to a Toucan than an Eagle.
But how about this
What I SEE here is a bird which has a long neck and a large curved beak similar to but smaller than that of a Toucan or Hornbill.

Eagle headed hilts aren't usually shown with the eagles 'neck' being full hilt/grip length.
Now I know there are exceptions of course (as below). But in my limited experience they tend to still be somehow in proportion and recognisable as an Eagle.

[Atlantia]

Ok chaps.
New game.

Those quillion terminals are rather distinctive.
What is that one the ends? A leaf, feathers a tuft of grass?
What do we see those representing? Anyone seen ones like them bofroe?

[M ELEY]

Yawn...OK, I seem to remember that this is a forum that is open to all opinions, not only one's own ( ). Whereas some Forums which will remain nameless choose to scorn any theories but those of the chosen, I feel that this Thread points out that NONE of us have really pinned this bird down. I acknowledge that this might be an eagle, it might be a crane, it might be Woody Wood Pecker...but I still hold that I believe, IMHO, that it probably is Spanish colonial or Mexican.
Eagle hilts were indeed common and popular throughout Europe, in the Americas and Spanish outposts. Although the Chinese and Japanese used cranes and other fowl in their art, not so much on their sword hilts. Likewise, hanger-type blades were extremely rare in those cultures.
Arabic? Please! It's a hanger-type sword, hardly popular or common in the Arab world. If you postulate that it is such, it would be a one-off. Note the classic Euro guard and opposite-facing quillons. We see these on Dutch, French, British, Spanish, German, etc, etc. We also see them in a very similar style from 19th century American (yes, I said it...American) eagle heads. NO, I no longer think this is N. American, but I do feel it is an early 19th c, piece. I think by pinning down the time-line, we eliminate some of the candidates. Some German hirschfanger continued to have opposing animal heads on their quillons, but by the end of the 18th century, most countries found it passe. Gone were the Dutch hangers and early English hangers with lion/eagle quillons. On the other hand, Mexican swords and espada continued to have animal-type hilts featuring eagle heads, snakes, etc.
As far as other ethnographic interpretations of this sword, I still doubt that a sword with a (read carefully) fine cast hilt with such detail in the feathers would appeal. Likewise, the hilt styling is Euro/American/Span colonial, the blade type is also. Note on this hilt the raised area on the pommel where the tang is located. This is a feature I have never seen on an Arabic, Chinese, Malay, etc, sword. Hence, my reasoning.
Regarding the Medicus Collection, I have the most profound respect to this world-reknowned collection and do not challenge its authenticity or merit. In bringing up the Lattimer collection, for which I too have the book, I believe some of the swords owned by the family are, in fact, mislabeled. This happens in all great collections and should not detract from the value these artifacts have in regards to educating. Case in point (for those who have Hartzler's book)-
Fig 54, labeled as "Spanish or French naval dirk, late 18th" is, in fact, a wavy-bladed Philippine bolo commonly identified on this forum.
Fig 57, labeled a "French style dirk", is a common mid/late 19th century Mexican eagle-pommel dirk seen on this forum.
Fig 58- see above.
Fig 129, listed as a European short sword, is another common 19th c. Philippine bolo.
Fig 210, a hunting sword from the mid-Atlantic colonies, is blatantly Spanish colonial or Mex period.
Fig 211- ditto.
I could go on, but my point is two-fold. One, when I mentioned 'Mexican' pieces in the Lattimer collection, this is what I was referring to. More importantly, I was trying to point out that eagle-head swords were MOST popular and repeated in N America and in Span colonies into the 19th century. Many of the eagle head swords in this collection bear swords with Spanish inscriptions. This doesn't mean they were Spanish made, but it does elude to the fact that here in the Americas, figural hilts were extremely popular. Is it really such a stretch to see that the new Mexican Republic would not look to the American eagle-head swords from the same period for inspiration?

That is my argument and you can take it for what it's worth. Now, I will batten down the hatches and wait for the grievous onslaught that is sure to follow. Please forgive any misspellings and such as I have been up for almost 36 hours. Time for bed

[laEspadaAncha]

I think when one takes into consideration not just the bird's head pommel and rendering of the feathers, but also the stylings of the rest of the hilt and the blade - in totality - it is likely to be of European Colonial origin.

I have never seen anything attributed to the Middle East that looked even remotely similar, and I would challenge the claim of use of this motif in Japanese or Chinese sculpture as well. To equate a questionable attribution to a published collection to an unqualified attribution to cultural complexes to which there is no stylistic input that would merit such a consideration is a false equivalency at best, as while this bird (head) rendering deos not resemble any of the published examples in the Medicus collection, there are plenty of obvious attributes IMO - the hangar blade, the s-curve quillons, the guard - to suggest a Colonial attribution.

Neither is what bird is represented on the pommel a red herring IMO, as recognized stylistic similarities are helpful - if not important - in helping identify from region of influence this sword came.

To my eye, a Spanish Colonial attribution seems most likely, though 'Nando's last post does introduce the interesting possibility of Indian manufacture, as there is a 'character' about the brass casting that for whatever reason recalls Indian brasswork to me.

[Jim McDougall]

WOW! Mark, thats what I call a broadside!!!! and brilliantly written for someone well rested, let alone without sleep for 36 hours!
You have really well stated that we need to openly receive all opinions expressed here, and carefully review all supporting evidence in considering evaluations toward analysis of the weapon in discussion.

Here we have had some great input, including the material you presented from those collections. My inclinations were toward Spanish colonial as well, but were admittedly becoming tenuous as I tried to find explanations for the appearance of the birdhead on this hanger. The 'Arabic' suggestion for this hanger was as far as I can see eliminated at the outset.

The detail in this birdhead is indeed well done, and seems to faithfully represent the species intended, rather than the rather stylized forms often seen on native examples in Africa such as the example Fernando posted. The image of the hornbill against the hilt of this sword was of course resoundingly compelling, and these birds were keenly important in the cultures of West Africa.

As Gene has pointed out, and you have reminded us, these alternating quillons in form as well as finely featured terminals seem far from the brass hilts of those West African regions, as does the scalloped shellguard.
Despite rebuttal toward the notable high relief feathers, they do still seem Spanish colonial. I completely agree with the influence of eagleheads of North America on Spanish colonial arms, but the conundrum of the distinctly un-eagle look of the birdhead on such an extremely well executed hilt remains.

I think another factor which may being this closer together is the prevalent trade routes from Spains colonies in North Africa, which of course actively traded into West Africa. Many of the curious edged weapons we have thought to be North African have ended up being Spanish colonial, such as the 'Berber' sabres and the fingerstalled swords, both turning up identified from Brazil to Cuba. The Spanish Main which prevailed well through the 19th century included these African areas as well as the Spanish colonies in South, Central America and Mexico all the way to the Philippines in the west.
Just as the unique beak and appearance of the toucan might have had an influence on an eaglehead style hilt, so too could the hornbill.

Here I'll batten my hatches too, and hope for responses good or bad
Its all discussion and open thinking so gentlemen...fire at will !!!

[Hotspur]

Yawn...OK, I seem to remember that this is a forum that is open to all opinions, not only one's own ( ). Whereas some Forums which will remain nameless choose to scorn any theories but those of the chosen, I feel that this .......

Which is very much the same type of cliquish behavior here Mark. Why drag any board through the mud?

What I have not offered is my opinion of either the Hartzler book nor The Flayderman/ Mowbray publication but instead have rebutted your thoughts of exacting details of plates you have mentioned in regard to the subject sword.

I was fairly clear in my initial post to this and agreed there may be a cause to think southern American colonial types. So, we are trotting the globe once again.

As to Chinese and Japanese art, I mention it in regard to how many ways a feather might be depicted, so certainly you will the same see stylings of feathers worldwide.

Cheers

GC

[M ELEY]

Hello, gentlemen. I'm up again...

Sorry for my earlier 'broadside' ( ). Lack of sleep and working much these days in a bad economy. I truly don't like to ruffle people's feathers (sorry for the bad pun), it's just that I wished to keep the thread going and with all possible considerations still open. Likewise, again, I cannot over-emphysize the importance of Mr hartzler's work (I have his Tomahawks book as well). My rather rambling point to all that was that even among experts and collectors (I am the latter, don't claim to be the former), you will still have differences in opinion. I also welcome criticism, was just defending my position, but PERHAPS a little too caustically. If I was rude, I apologize.
Please continue this discussion on this enigmatic sword.

Fernando, where are the pictures!!!! Just kidding! I know...you are working on it. I really like this sword, regardless of what its origin might end up being.

[fernando]

So, Gentlemen,
Back to a smooth path ... which could only be, with the fine members involved in this rather interesting discussion.
No Mark, according to recent feedback, i am afraid no further pictures wil be available. .
... Which is pity, though