Rare Mughal Dagger

ALEX · 18th March 2012, 09:09 PM

now when I got your attention:-) there's a growing trend hitting the market, and particularly eBay, of mughal kundan imitations. Not to discredit a particular seller (as there's no mentioning of word "kundan"), but to educate those who may not realize this is not kundan, as it looks like some do not know, based on prices and feedbacks. So look at the below closeups: the real kundan requires stones to be placed (pushed) into carved patterns into melted gold. What we see here is a clever surface application with twisted wire and stones being glued on top. The work is actually quite sloppy, there's even some glue residue left and I'd feel sorry for anyone during Mughal times who'd dare to produce such "quality" - that person would be expelled from the workshop and loose an arm. Nowadays, this is what buyers do:-). One can write a few pages of what's "not right" with those daggers, but pictures worth a few pages more...

Battara · 18th March 2012, 11:55 PM

WOW! Ugly stuff. And you can't tell very well from ebay pictures. Good to have this thread, thank you.

Jens Nordlunde · 19th March 2012, 12:19 AM

Hi Alex,
Thank you for bringing this up. I agree with you that not all know what kundan is, or how it was made, so your warning is well placed.
Jens

Stan S. · 19th March 2012, 02:28 AM

Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

Here are few examples of kundan technique...

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 10:15 AM

And here's 18th century nephrite jade handle with all jewels and gold removed, so you can see the original carvings before they were filled with all that bling:-)

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 10:22 AM

also, 19th C mughal handle with some kundan applied much later, likely in 20th C.

Atlantia · 19th March 2012, 10:27 AM

Excellent thread Alex.. Valuable information.

estcrh · 29th November 2015, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

Here are a few examples from the Met Museum.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th November 2015, 01:34 PM

Ariel, I still think the one to the right in post no 10 is a nilgai, just like the one shown in post 18. See the text here.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...&tabname=label
Jens

Dom · 19th March 2012, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

now when I got your attention:-) there's a growing trend hitting the market, and particularly eBay, of mughal kundan imitations

Hi Alex, you're absolutely right

and ... if it's was "only" concerning Mughal kundan ...

I will add some criteria, about edged weapons, or part of armour
- when the pic's exposure, is done, darken voluntarily
- when there is no mention about a date or even a century, like that, no risk to be accused of false description
- last point, but sometime I may be wrong, when the price is far away of the market average price
the list it's not restrictive, we may complete it

à +

Dom

18th March 2012, 09:09 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Rare Mughal Dagger now when I got your attention:-) there's a growing trend hitting the market, and particularly eBay, of mughal kundan imitations. Not to discredit a particular seller (as there's no mentioning of word "kundan"), but to educate those who may not realize this is not kundan, as it looks like some do not know, based on prices and feedbacks. So look at the below closeups: the real kundan requires stones to be placed (pushed) into carved patterns into melted gold. What we see here is a clever surface application with twisted wire and stones being glued on top. The work is actually quite sloppy, there's even some glue residue left and I'd feel sorry for anyone during Mughal times who'd dare to produce such "quality" - that person would be expelled from the workshop and loose an arm. Nowadays, this is what buyers do:-). One can write a few pages of what's "not right" with those daggers, but pictures worth a few pages more... Attached Images

19th March 2012, 10:15 AM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	And here's 18th century nephrite jade handle with all jewels and gold removed, so you can see the original carvings before they were filled with all that bling:-) Attached Images

19th March 2012, 10:22 AM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	also, 19th C mughal handle with some kundan applied much later, likely in 20th C. Attached Images

18th March 2012, 11:55 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	WOW! Ugly stuff. And you can't tell very well from ebay pictures. Good to have this thread, thank you.

19th March 2012, 12:19 AM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Alex, Thank you for bringing this up. I agree with you that not all know what kundan is, or how it was made, so your warning is well placed. Jens

19th March 2012, 02:28 AM	#4
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

19th March 2012, 10:27 AM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Excellent thread Alex.. Valuable information.

29th November 2015, 01:34 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, I still think the one to the right in post no 10 is a nilgai, just like the one shown in post 18. See the text here. http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...&tabname=label Jens