What pamor is this?

[David]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

am I denying that history? off course I am.
am I maintaining that this original keris is from Bali? this one I have to make my sefl clear. OK then It might not from bali. but I do have to agree it was made some time around majapahit period. let's just call it tangguh majapahit.
BUT for further information about the empu who made the keris. that's a little bit too far. I will not address that pasopati as a blambangan keris. not even close.
let's make this more fun then David, this discussion off course.

You are, of course, welcome to call this blade any tangguh you wish Ferry. That is your right to opinion that all individuals have. But's you should hold off on the "Let's". There is no "us" in your opinion. Personally i prefer not to make assumptions based upon a single overall photograph of a somewhat out of stain blade that does not possibly allow a close enough examination to come to such a conclusion. You are unable to determine the weight of the blade, the color of the iron when properly stained, the nature of the pamor material or the true depth of the sogokan or height of the ada-ada from this photograph.
As for who the mpu may have been, i too would be skeptical of his identity. I am not familiar with the history of Mpu Supo, when he was supposed to have worked, etc. But the identity of the Mpu has never been a real subject of discussion here, has it. This does seem to be a well chronicled keris however. It seems to be a keris with a name (Kanjeng Kyai Seneng Pareng) and a history. Past owners are known. But the accuracy of the account of this keris is also not important to the main contention of debate here. I think that it would be irresponsible to claim the knowledge of the tangguh of this keris based upon the photograph, but one thing that seems absolutely clear about it form this image is that it is NOT a Bali keris. Other than that this debate has been rather circular. I have not seen any evidence that supports a Bali origin for this keris, period. Now you seem to be waffling on that assertion so i guess the debate is over and we agree.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

but I do have to agree it was made some time around majapahit period. let's just call it tangguh majapahit.

Sorry Ferrylaki, these things aren't so easy to handle. Becouse of such attitude of many people the term and system Tangguh has become pretty incredible.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Sorry Ferrylaki, these things aren't so easy to handle. Becouse of such attitude of many people the term and system Tangguh has become pretty incredible.

OK Gustav. I understand

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by David

You are, of course, welcome to call this blade any tangguh you wish Ferry. That is your right to opinion that all individuals have. But's you should hold off on the "Let's". There is no "us" in your opinion. Personally i prefer not to make assumptions based upon a single overall photograph of a somewhat out of stain blade that does not possibly allow a close enough examination to come to such a conclusion. You are unable to determine the weight of the blade, the color of the iron when properly stained, the nature of the pamor material or the true depth of the sogokan or height of the ada-ada from this photograph.
As for who the mpu may have been, i too would be skeptical of his identity. I am not familiar with the history of Mpu Supo, when he was supposed to have worked, etc. But the identity of the Mpu has never been a real subject of discussion here, has it. This does seem to be a well chronicled keris however. It seems to be a keris with a name (Kanjeng Kyai Seneng Pareng) and a history. Past owners are known. But the accuracy of the account of this keris is also not important to the main contention of debate here. I think that it would be irresponsible to claim the knowledge of the tangguh of this keris based upon the photograph, but one thing that seems absolutely clear about it form this image is that it is NOT a Bali keris. Other than that this debate has been rather circular. I have not seen any evidence that supports a Bali origin for this keris, period. Now you seem to be waffling on that assertion so i guess the debate is over and we agree.

I do Agree the keris is not from bali.
It's a tipical java keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

I do Agree the keris is not from bali.
It's a tipical java keris.

hmmmm.....i'm glad to see that we do indeed agree....so what exactly were we debating about for the past 10 days then...

[A. G. Maisey]

OK, the bus is leaving and I've just jumped in the back door.

Thanks for your invitation Ferry, but I'm still not going to get too much involved in this.

Every week I get several queries into my personal email box asking for opinions on keris. This has gone on for years. Over the last few years, since people in the western world have become aware of tangguh the queries often include a request for a tangguh opinion. My usual response is that I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to try to classify a blade on the basis of a photo or photographs, no matter how good those photos are, because there is much, much more to giving a supportable tangguh on a blade than just looking at form. If you are going to give an opinion that you can defend on a blade you need to hold it in your hands and let it talk to you --- sorry for the phrasing, but I'm in Solo right now and this sort of thing rubs off on you after a few weeks.

Ferry, I know you to be an intelligent man, and a man with at least one foot in the modern world. Your other foot is probably poised halfway between a kampung in Solo and the modern world of Jakarta. You have undoubtedly heard "tangguh ngak sungguh" , and this is an absolutely correct position to take, when tangguh is applied as a method of blade dating. The fact is that tangguh is a method of blade classification that forms a part of the keris belief system, and that belief system in the 21st century cannot be divorced from the Kejawen world view.

The way I was taught tangguh was to look for indicators in a blade and then to make a decision based upon the weight of the indicators, but the man who taught me was 100% Kejawen in his beliefs and totally Surakarta Karaton orientated. I never, ever debated anything with him, when I was with him I adopted a world view that was in complete agreement with his own. However, when I stepped out of that world and back into my own world I reverted to my normal rational, logical, investigative nature.

When we consider tangguh we need to ask ourselves a few questions, beginning with the probable point in history when the Modern Keris, ie, the keris as we know it now, came into being, and we place that into a historical context.

Then we need to consider when the tangguh system began to be applied and why it came into being.

These are just starting points, if we wish to understand the keris as it truly is.

However, another quite valid way of looking at the keris is to accept the Keris Belief System. Why do I say a system of belief is a valid way to look at the keris? Because perception is reality for the people who accept the beliefs.

Good Christians do not question their beliefs. Nor do good Muslims, nor Buddhists, nor Hindus. If somebody needs a belief to complete their life it is their business alone and no concern of anybody else to try to convince them otherwise.

So you choose your path:-

if you wish to understand the keris in a supportable, rational way, you do the research and form ideas of your own

if you wish to be a fellow traveler on the road of Javanese Keris Belief you accept what older, more experienced and respected people tell you and you do not question it.

It all depends upon your own chosen path.

[rasjid]

Very wise response Alan.
Thank you.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by rasjid

Very wise response Alan.
Thank you.

very wise indeed. thank you

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank you, gentlemen, but I'm not so sure that you see wisdom at play here, rather a wish to survive in a difficult environment.