"Balinese Keris" book - Page 2

Interested Party · 22nd May 2020, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here are my initial thoughts:-

Estimate value:- ie, what is a fair price for a keris?
-Yes, but not the focus of this forum. My family were old fashioned traders. Value is a compulsive habit and understood to be realativistic.

Estimate age:- ie, when was the blade made, when were other components made ?
-Yes and yes.

Construction:- ie, how was the blade made, how were other components made?
-Yes and yes.

Reasons for motifs:- ie, cultural and societal significance of design & ornamental motifs used in the keris?
-Yes. The mixture of art, ascetics and narrative the artist wanted to show, and purpose both ergonomics and supernatural appeal. I saw a book on Hindu iconography you listed and I have been wanting to read Elgood's book on Hindu ritual.

As a cultural icon:- probably links back to motifs, both can probably be considered together

Societal differentiation & background:- this involves anthropological & sociological study.
-Yes it will. Lots.

Use as a weapon:- this covers a very broad field and involves a lot of opinion & very little fact, Don Draeger might be the place to start, but the enquiry should really be narrowed down to precisely what is being sought
-IDK martial arts are a very nebulous subject for me. I'm not sure I will ever have much of a grip on it.

Classification:- if classification for a collector based in the modern world outside S.E. Asia, Jean Greffioz' recent book is hard to go past. If classification in a different sense, tighter specification is needed.
-What do you use as your basis for classification or do you use several systems in parallel?

Only texts in English
-I can read Spanish at a slower pace.

If my understanding of your needs is incorrect in any way, or needs to be expanded, please amend my rough outline above.

When we can nail down exactly what you need I can probably make some recommendations, and I believe other of our regular contributors could probably add to what I might recommend.

Noted. This is a bit of a long term project. WOW I really appreciate this and hope others are getting something out of it as well! I've been combing the forum for books for months.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd May 2020, 06:17 AM

With apologies, I've taken this out of the quote frame to make it easier to work with.

Estimated value:-

A.G.--- ie, what is a fair price for a keris?

IP --- Yes, but not the focus of this forum. My family were old fashioned traders. Value is a compulsive habit and understood to be realativistic.

A.G. -- Yeah, we don't talk about actual examples of what things are worth, our focus is, I believe, mostly the classification & cultural area of enquiry. However, I do not believe that there is any restriction on discussing how an estimated value is arrived at.

This is pretty much tied up with perspective.

The value of anything is determined by what a willing buyer will pay and what a willing seller will accept.
This depends upon market forces and the personalities involved. But there are valuers in all fields who will give an expert opinion on what something is worth on the current market, these people usually charge a fee that is validated by their personal experience, and that experience can take several lifetimes to gain.

For a collector of anything, as distinct from a dealer, that collector's only protection is hard won experience and dealing with an honest seller who has a reputation that he cannot afford to lose.

I would most gently suggest that ebay and unknown internet sellers are perhaps not the best place to begin one's learning experience.

Estimate age:-

A.G. --- ie, when was the blade made, when were other components made ?

IP --- Yes and yes.

A. G. --- insofar as the blade is concerned this is to a very large degree a matter of hands on experience, you cannot learn much about it from anything that is in print, you need a very good face to face teacher and access to a lot of keris blades, even then it can be close to impossible to arrive at a reliable estimate.
With the other components it is a matter of being able to judge things like method of manufacture and patina and whether or not the object in question has been fiddled with. Again, books will not help.

Construction:-

A. G. --- ie, how was the blade made, how were other components made?

IP --- Yes and yes.

A. G. --- the technology of keris blade construction is pretty simple, it is basically straight-forward blade smithing, but with archaic technology. Re-prints of old blacksmithing text books, modern knife maker's texts (Jim Hrisoulas). You can learn the theory from books, learning the practice is a bit more difficult.
Hilts & scabbards are just carving --- wood, horn, bone, etc--- where metal is involved it involves fabrication and chasing, either hand engraving or embossing, repoussé has been used but it is rare. Plenty of books around that deal with these skills.

Reasons for motifs:-

A. G. --- ie, cultural and societal significance of design & ornamental motifs used in the keris?

IP --- Yes. The mixture of art, ascetics and narrative the artist wanted to show, and purpose both ergonomics and supernatural appeal. I saw a book on Hindu iconography you listed and I have been wanting to read Elgood's book on Hindu ritual.

A. G. --- This is not really something that can reduced to print on a page. The same thing can have different meanings in different places & times and for different people. I personally believe that it is not really possible to come to even a partial understanding of the motifs involved in Javanese & Balinese society & culture unless one is embedded in one of relevant societies, and even then, it is necessary to seek guidance from the (now) very few people who might have an understanding of these things. Much of the knowledge has been lost. Very wide and continuous study in this field can assist, but it is certain that an enormous amount of knowledge just does not exist any longer.
Having said that, there is a fair bit of comment on various motifs scattered through a lot of books, but how much is truly accurate, and in what context, is open to question. If English is the only language available, then I don't think there is anything in print in English that I could recommend.

As a cultural icon:-

A. G. --- probably links back to motifs, both can probably be considered together

Societal differentiation & background:-

A. G. --- this involves anthropological & sociological study.

IP --- Yes it will. Lots.

A. G. --- perhaps the best place to start with this is:-

Wiener Margaret J. "Visible and Invisible Realms",
ISBN 0-226-88582-8/1,The University of Chicago Press

Use as a weapon:-

A. G. --- this covers a very broad field and involves a lot of opinion & very little fact, Don Draeger might be the place to start, but the enquiry should really be narrowed down to precisely what is being sought

IP --- IDK martial arts are a very nebulous subject for me. I'm not sure I will ever have much of a grip on it.

A.G. --- the modern interpretations of keris related martial arts are a field unto themselves, the use of the keris as a weapon to kill or wound in both modern and ancient times bears very little relationship to the use of the keris in modern martial arts. How it was used in times past can only be guessed at, but ancient literary works and historical texts from the last couple of hundred years do give some guidance. How it was used during the era of Konfrontasi and the struggle for independence in modern Indonesia is now probably only known to those who might have been involved or who have spoken with others about their experiences. I do not know of anything in print about this.
The Javanese philosophy of the use of any weapon seems to me to owe a lot to Sun Tzu and in general to Chinese philosophies.

Classification:-

A. G. --- if classification for a collector based in the modern world outside S.E. Asia, Jean Greffioz' recent book is hard to go past. If classification in a different sense, tighter specification is needed.

IP --- What do you use as your basis for classification or do you use several systems in parallel?

A. G. --- it depends upon what I need to classify, if you can put the question to me in a specific way, I will give a specific response. This whole thing of classification is almost endless. It is pretty easy to classify some things in generally accepted terms, but then the classification needs to be understood by the person or people it is directed at:- I do not necessarily classify something in the same way for collectors in the Western World, as I would for a dealer living in Solo, Central Jawa.

David · 23rd May 2020, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Thank you!!!! I have been skimming your article and bibliography (looking on line for availability as I go, I would read Groneman next if he wasn't so expensive).

I believe if you search the internet you will be able to find this book online.

Interested Party · 31st May 2020, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I believe if you search the internet you will be able to find this book online.

I've seen a few copies out there. I just need to find the right one. So far they have seemed maybe slightly over valued.

"A. G. --- perhaps the best place to start with this is: -Wiener Margaret J. "Visible and Invisible Realms", ISBN 0-226-88582-8/1,The University of Chicago Press"

--Mr Maisey, Funny you should say that I already had her on order from reading your bibliography. I really enjoyed your Interpretation. I am looking at what I see in a different way now. (the lingam/yoni symbolism, which is mirrored in Daoist beliefs. The water cycle between the mountains and valleys. Fertility. How the martial use of the blade would mirror the art, the unity of the destroyer and the creator. The cultural importance of the conflict over Chinese Kailash as well as the belief that sometimes mtns shouldn't be climbed. Lots of little pieces). Every little bit helps understand where and from what culture an object, and often its separate components, came from. Comprehending a bit of the symbolism behind the motifs or lack of motifs, has given a glimpse into possibly what it's maker was trying to say/achieve. This has enhanced my enjoyment of seeing the objects immensely. Thanks, for that. A week where I've learned this much is a good week.

A question for the group; Why is there very little mention of Gardner's "Keris and other Malay Weapon"? and none of A.H. Hill and his coauthors for their collected works? Are these not considered serious, or are they antiquated or worse yet erroneous? My apologies for being the king of the run-on sentence.

Anthony G. · 31st May 2020, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I've seen a few copies out there. I just need to find the right one. So far they have seemed maybe slightly over valued.

"A. G. --- perhaps the best place to start with this is: -Wiener Margaret J. "Visible and Invisible Realms", ISBN 0-226-88582-8/1,The University of Chicago Press"

--Mr Maisey, Funny you should say that I already had her on order from reading your bibliography. I really enjoyed your Interpretation. I am looking at what I see in a different way now. (the lingam/yoni symbolism, which is mirrored in Daoist beliefs. The water cycle between the mountains and valleys. Fertility. How the martial use of the blade would mirror the art, the unity of the destroyer and the creator. The cultural importance of the conflict over Chinese Kailash as well as the belief that sometimes mtns shouldn't be climbed. Lots of little pieces). Every little bit helps understand where and from what culture an object, and often its separate components, came from. Comprehending a bit of the symbolism behind the motifs or lack of motifs, has given a glimpse into possibly what it's maker was trying to say/achieve. This has enhanced my enjoyment of seeing the objects immensely. Thanks, for that. A week where I've learned this much is a good week.

A question for the group; Why is there very little mention of Gardner's "Keris and other Malay Weapon"? and none of A.H. Hill and his coauthors for their collected works? Are these not considered serious, or are they antiquated or worse yet erroneous? My apologies for being the king of the run-on sentence.

Dun waste your cash on this book, I have it. Anyway, read this review and you shall decide whether it is a right book for you or otherwise.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/..._Malay_Weapons

Jean · 31st May 2020, 10:15 AM

IP,
Gardner was stationed in Malaysia and his descriptions of the Indonesian krisses are somewhat inaccurate and obsolete.
The best source for buying the recent Groneman book is the site Ethnographic Art Books (the online library of the Leiden Museum), the book N° is 9243 but the price is very high!
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2020, 01:00 PM

I consider Gardner to be of historical value, he provides a point of view and level of belief that was current at his time. As for inaccuracy, well, the entire body of keris literature is studded with inaccuracies, including Groneman's work. If one is particularly tied to the concept of accuracy, it is perhaps best not to become too involved with keris. In fact, it is very difficult to claim that anything about the keris is totally accurate unless the claim to accuracy is hedged with qualifications. It is perhaps best to think of the entire body of keris "knowledge" as keris "belief".

Interested Party · 21st September 2020, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Classification:-

A. G. --- if classification for a collector based in the modern world outside S.E. Asia, Jean Greffioz' recent book is hard to go past. If classification in a different sense, tighter specification is needed.

Would the text I'm looking for be; Keris Hilts: Small Masterpieces from Indonesia,[I]The Fantastic World of the Indonesian Keris Hilts[I], or are there other titles in Jean's bibliography I haven't found yet?

May I ask if any are still in print? Or is that a question for PM?

A. G. Maisey · 21st September 2020, 10:55 PM

I.P. --- I probably had Jean's "The Kris" (ISBN 978-2-9535400-2-4) in mind when I wrote that, but both the hilt book & the kris book are good foundations for a collector outside the keris heartlands to use as a tool for categorisation.

I'm not sure if these two books I mention are the ones you're asking about or if you mean something else. Jean did publish something about hilts around 10 years ago but I don't think I've seen this book.

When referring to some published work its a good idea to give as much info as possible. A lot of books have very similar names.

Jean · 22nd September 2020, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I.P. --- I probably had Jean's "The Kris" (ISBN 978-2-9535400-2-4) in mind when I wrote that, but both the hilt book & the kris book are good foundations for a collector outside the keris heartlands to use as a tool for categorisation.

I'm not sure if these two books I mention are the ones you're asking about or if you mean something else. Jean did publish something about hilts around 10 years ago but I don't think I've seen this book.

When referring to some published work its a good idea to give as much info as possible. A lot of books have very similar names.

Thank you very much Alan for your appreciation.
IP, my 2 recent books "The Kris, Legendary weapon from Indonesia" and "The fantastic World of Indonesian kris hilts", and the older book "Kris hilts, small masterpieces from Indonesia" are out of print, but you may find a copy on some sites or pm me to see what I can do for you.
Regards

31st May 2020, 10:15 AM	#36
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	IP, Gardner was stationed in Malaysia and his descriptions of the Indonesian krisses are somewhat inaccurate and obsolete. The best source for buying the recent Groneman book is the site Ethnographic Art Books (the online library of the Leiden Museum), the book N° is 9243 but the price is very high! Regards Last edited by Jean; 31st May 2020 at 10:28 AM.

22nd May 2020, 06:17 AM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	With apologies, I've taken this out of the quote frame to make it easier to work with. Estimated value:- A.G.--- ie, what is a fair price for a keris? IP --- Yes, but not the focus of this forum. My family were old fashioned traders. Value is a compulsive habit and understood to be realativistic. A.G. -- Yeah, we don't talk about actual examples of what things are worth, our focus is, I believe, mostly the classification & cultural area of enquiry. However, I do not believe that there is any restriction on discussing how an estimated value is arrived at. This is pretty much tied up with perspective. The value of anything is determined by what a willing buyer will pay and what a willing seller will accept. This depends upon market forces and the personalities involved. But there are valuers in all fields who will give an expert opinion on what something is worth on the current market, these people usually charge a fee that is validated by their personal experience, and that experience can take several lifetimes to gain. For a collector of anything, as distinct from a dealer, that collector's only protection is hard won experience and dealing with an honest seller who has a reputation that he cannot afford to lose. I would most gently suggest that ebay and unknown internet sellers are perhaps not the best place to begin one's learning experience. Estimate age:- A.G. --- ie, when was the blade made, when were other components made ? IP --- Yes and yes. A. G. --- insofar as the blade is concerned this is to a very large degree a matter of hands on experience, you cannot learn much about it from anything that is in print, you need a very good face to face teacher and access to a lot of keris blades, even then it can be close to impossible to arrive at a reliable estimate. With the other components it is a matter of being able to judge things like method of manufacture and patina and whether or not the object in question has been fiddled with. Again, books will not help. Construction:- A. G. --- ie, how was the blade made, how were other components made? IP --- Yes and yes. A. G. --- the technology of keris blade construction is pretty simple, it is basically straight-forward blade smithing, but with archaic technology. Re-prints of old blacksmithing text books, modern knife maker's texts (Jim Hrisoulas). You can learn the theory from books, learning the practice is a bit more difficult. Hilts & scabbards are just carving --- wood, horn, bone, etc--- where metal is involved it involves fabrication and chasing, either hand engraving or embossing, repoussé has been used but it is rare. Plenty of books around that deal with these skills. Reasons for motifs:- A. G. --- ie, cultural and societal significance of design & ornamental motifs used in the keris? IP --- Yes. The mixture of art, ascetics and narrative the artist wanted to show, and purpose both ergonomics and supernatural appeal. I saw a book on Hindu iconography you listed and I have been wanting to read Elgood's book on Hindu ritual. A. G. --- This is not really something that can reduced to print on a page. The same thing can have different meanings in different places & times and for different people. I personally believe that it is not really possible to come to even a partial understanding of the motifs involved in Javanese & Balinese society & culture unless one is embedded in one of relevant societies, and even then, it is necessary to seek guidance from the (now) very few people who might have an understanding of these things. Much of the knowledge has been lost. Very wide and continuous study in this field can assist, but it is certain that an enormous amount of knowledge just does not exist any longer. Having said that, there is a fair bit of comment on various motifs scattered through a lot of books, but how much is truly accurate, and in what context, is open to question. If English is the only language available, then I don't think there is anything in print in English that I could recommend. As a cultural icon:- A. G. --- probably links back to motifs, both can probably be considered together Societal differentiation & background:- A. G. --- this involves anthropological & sociological study. IP --- Yes it will. Lots. A. G. --- perhaps the best place to start with this is:- Wiener Margaret J. "Visible and Invisible Realms", ISBN 0-226-88582-8/1,The University of Chicago Press Use as a weapon:- A. G. --- this covers a very broad field and involves a lot of opinion & very little fact, Don Draeger might be the place to start, but the enquiry should really be narrowed down to precisely what is being sought IP --- IDK martial arts are a very nebulous subject for me. I'm not sure I will ever have much of a grip on it. A.G. --- the modern interpretations of keris related martial arts are a field unto themselves, the use of the keris as a weapon to kill or wound in both modern and ancient times bears very little relationship to the use of the keris in modern martial arts. How it was used in times past can only be guessed at, but ancient literary works and historical texts from the last couple of hundred years do give some guidance. How it was used during the era of Konfrontasi and the struggle for independence in modern Indonesia is now probably only known to those who might have been involved or who have spoken with others about their experiences. I do not know of anything in print about this. The Javanese philosophy of the use of any weapon seems to me to owe a lot to Sun Tzu and in general to Chinese philosophies. Classification:- A. G. --- if classification for a collector based in the modern world outside S.E. Asia, Jean Greffioz' recent book is hard to go past. If classification in a different sense, tighter specification is needed. IP --- What do you use as your basis for classification or do you use several systems in parallel? A. G. --- it depends upon what I need to classify, if you can put the question to me in a specific way, I will give a specific response. This whole thing of classification is almost endless. It is pretty easy to classify some things in generally accepted terms, but then the classification needs to be understood by the person or people it is directed at:- I do not necessarily classify something in the same way for collectors in the Western World, as I would for a dealer living in Solo, Central Jawa.

31st May 2020, 01:00 PM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I consider Gardner to be of historical value, he provides a point of view and level of belief that was current at his time. As for inaccuracy, well, the entire body of keris literature is studded with inaccuracies, including Groneman's work. If one is particularly tied to the concept of accuracy, it is perhaps best not to become too involved with keris. In fact, it is very difficult to claim that anything about the keris is totally accurate unless the claim to accuracy is hedged with qualifications. It is perhaps best to think of the entire body of keris "knowledge" as keris "belief".

21st September 2020, 10:55 PM	#39
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I.P. --- I probably had Jean's "The Kris" (ISBN 978-2-9535400-2-4) in mind when I wrote that, but both the hilt book & the kris book are good foundations for a collector outside the keris heartlands to use as a tool for categorisation. I'm not sure if these two books I mention are the ones you're asking about or if you mean something else. Jean did publish something about hilts around 10 years ago but I don't think I've seen this book. When referring to some published work its a good idea to give as much info as possible. A lot of books have very similar names.