A Spanish rapier Early 17TH century

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you as well Fernando, for your also very generous reply.
Please understand, I did not mean to imply that my thoughts on the half moon mark being a Castilian statute or mark of such benefit was in any way unassailable. In fact, I would not ever consider any of my theories or matters being observed as such, as it would be contrary to my place as a student of arms, certainly not an expert.

What I meant is that I consider the data from Mr. Beraiz, as well as most of the work of Palomares in review as being valuable and highly considered, however that there may always be other aspects or conditions which might have put certain significance to the moons, not yet discovered or known.

While your explanations regarding the espadero del rey signature as most reliably described by Mr. Beraiz seem of course quite definitive, the conundrum of the moons to me remains very much inconclusive.
Actually I am with you in hoping for more definitive evidence of what significance or symbolism these half moons might have held; who used them; and why. The fact that some well versed and highly respected authorities, such as Sir James Mann (1962, Wallace Coll.) accepted the idea of links to the Espaderos del Rey lead me to believe that such a thought had some reliable source.
It is clear that even the most highly regarded authorities are not without certain information which may be incorrect or improperly assumed, but it is typically a singular or unusually rare case. That circumstance does seem to diminish proportionally with those who in specialized fields and in their own national context, such as Mr. Beraiz, so I recognize his comments accordingly as most reliable.

Thank you as always for such well placed and supported discussion.

All the best
Jim

[fernando]

Well Jim, considering this wasn't yet the chekmate on this issue, and asking Jean-Luc for tolerance over hijacking his thread, i would like to introduce the earliest author known to have registered Spanish silver smiths, mostly those working in Toledo, with the great difference that this one was contemporary to the old Masters, as he resourced around the 1600's. Jehan Lhermite was a Flemish Gentilhomme who served Spanish Kings Filipe II and III, having been assigned to their chambers. In his written work called "Le Passetemps", he gives account of places and events he has been through when traveling with the Royalty, and includes a report on sword smiths registered in Toledo (and not only) with a comprehensive description on how they used to shape their blades, like ricasso profile and their average length, something Palomares didn't cover, as well as the marks they used, these maybe not exempted from one or two eventual flaws, even considering he registered them in the period. Interesting to check that he registered (only) one Master who used the Espadero del Rey signature (Sebastian Hernandez), and makes only one mention to the half moon symbol, "forming a rostrillo inside it", as once adopted by (guess who) Juan Martinez.
It took me a couple hours to format this chart in order to make it "uploadable". I hope it is worth ... and not boring.


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[Jim McDougall]

I would very much like to thank Jean Luc for his forbearance in this continued digression in his thread, as well Fernando for his patience in responding to my inquisitiveness concerning the 'Espadero del Rey' dilemma. While it indeed is a digression topically, this matter on these swordsmiths is indirectly pertinent as related to my suggestion that the nearly indistinguishable mark at the forte on his example might be a degraded 'half moon' which may have been placed along with the rather rugged inscription in the blade.

Fernando, the entry you have placed here is exactly the kind of material I as hoping for, especially as this account was contemporary to the working times of the old swordsmiths. As noted, the problems with Palomares accounts are inherently a result of his having documented most of his material during a time (1772) when nearly all of these makers had long been gone and Toledo's sword making industry had long been in ruin.

This resource is most valuable, and I very much appreciate the time and effort you spent in providing it here, so I thank you sincerely. Even in Spanish, the clearly illustrated marks and accompanying text should be manageable in examining this very important data, which, like all of your entries, are never, ever boring!

Thank you again!

Best regards
Jim

[Foxbat]

Very nice italian rapier, good find!

[Gonzalo G]

First, all the swords from Francisco Ruiz that I have seen, are those of the type known as "espadas de conchas", which combines in this case a kind of cup-hilt made with metal plates combined with some bars or laces, but this does not exclude the possibility that there can be some swords from the same smith with hilts of the type known as "espadas de lazo", with bars or laces and no metal plates.

Second, Fer is completely right. The category or title of "Espadero del Rey" (Swordsmith of the King) is referred in this century, not to a kind of employment in the exclusive service of the king. Not to be confused with the swordsmith of the State-promoted Real Fábrica de Espadas of Toledo (the Royal Factory of Swords of Toledo), founded in 1761, latter the Fábrica de Armas Blancas de Toledo. It refers to a recognition given to those swordsmiths who had distinguished themselves making exceptional works. In other words, it is a title given by merits and not for beign in the paysheet of the king. And the swordsmith can live in Toledo or in Valencia, that does not matter or is related to the residence of the king.

And this title, which gives not only prestige, but also a permanent tax exemption for the swordsmith, is inscribed frecuently on the blades not with a particular stamp, but with the respective descriptive text. This can be also confirmed in the excellent book from Vicente Toledo Momparler "Espadas Españolas Militares y Civiles del Siglo XVI al XX" (Spanish Military and Civil Swords from the 16th to the 20th Century). But this is not a only a matter of books. It is enough to look for the recognized blades of Espaderos del Rey and see if they have half-moon stamps. They not. Half-moon stamps can be found also on germanic blades of rapiers, of course not belonging to a "Espadero del Rey". Maybe this stamp was a misattribution.

Third. Corneliusstomp is right, globular pommels are very rare in Spanish rapiers, and when you find them, they never have that kind of decoration.

Fourth. Fer, according to Momparler, the inscription "Espadero del Rey" can be found also "en los lomos del recazo", meaning, the spine of the ricasso. See the description which he gives of the Espada de Lazo de Aval del Monte en Toledo from the 16th Century.

Unfortunately, adding to the scarcity on studies of Spanish, Portuguese and Latin American edged weapons, non-spanish and portuguese speaking collectors have the grat barrier of language, so the english written texts are very incomplete and have often inaccuracies or arbitrary designations. As the term "Caribbean Rapier", designating a Spanish colonial sword, some times even a Spanish colonial cavalry sword, with a more wide blade but with a cup-hilt. The term sounds very romantic, with vague reminiscences to pirates, palm trees and sandy beaches, but is imprecise, since it refers only to a certain characteristics found only in certain pieces, not necessarily Caribbean, nor necessarily rapiers, but only Spanish colonial swords made with scarcity of materials, lack of financiang and not very good craftmanship, often combining types of hilts and blades belonging to a different types of historical swords, not to mention the cultural influence from other peoples, as in the case of the african influence on the machetes of Guanabacoa and the "berber swords" from Santo Domingo in the Caribbean.

Regards

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Fourth. Fer, according to Momparler, the inscription "Espadero del Rey" can be found also "en los lomos del recazo", meaning, the spine of the ricasso. See the description which he gives of the Espada de Lazo de Aval del Monte en Toledo from the 16th Century...

Have i said something otherwise, Gonzalo ? Or is there a difference between cantos del recazo and lomos del recazo ... other than a wording option ?. The various notes i read, Beraiz included, mention cantos and not lombos; in my limited knowledge i realize this is the same ... .

[Gonzalo G]

Sorry Fer, I misunderstood or misread one of your statements. You are right.

Regards