Kattara restoration

[Gavin Nugent]

Sit in the shade for a while friend, the mirage will soon disappear.

All the best.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Ostrich (by Mary E. Wilkins Freeman)

The ostrich is a silly bird,
With scarcely any mind.
He often runs so very fast,
He leaves himself behind.

And when he gets there, has to stand
And hang about till night,
Without a blessed thing to do
Until he comes in sight.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Robert]

Ibrahiim and Gavin, As both of you are quite aware of the forum rules on flaming and insults:
"Flames or insults are strictly against the rules. If you disagree with another member's point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. Civility and respect towards other participants are unconditionally expected."
I feel no need to have to warn you both that this type of exchange will not be tolerated on the forum. Either take this to PM or email or drop it all together. Any more exchanges of this nature will earn the member a drop to moderated statis.

Robert

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Unless of course you would prefer to "imagine" rather than to "know" the facts; Obtuse remarks will not change the dancing sword into a fighting weapon no matter how many toys are thrown !

Bring it on...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

mmmm Obtuse...

As in" not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull?"


& "bring it on" ok if that's your wish...

mmm that's realy funny coming from you , remember what you have learnt from my posts?. That you now proclaim to everyone... The Ethiopian connection etc. Re. The re. use for Jambiyas & numerous others things on the same subject, & the many references I published for you? That you know pronounce yourself as the authority upon....I suggest you have a look in the mirror before you step on your own dick again....

Its a terrible habit.

Spiral

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by spiral

mmmm Obtuse...

As in" not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull?"


& "bring it on" ok if that's your wish...

mmm that's realy funny coming from you , remember what you have learnt from my posts?. That you now proclaim to everyone... The Ethiopian connection etc. Re. The re. use for Jambiyas & numerous others things on the same subject, & the many references I published for you? That you know pronounce yourself as the authority upon....I suggest you have a look in the mirror before you step on your own dick again....

Its a terrible habit.

Spiral

This post just bought you a 10 day suspension of your posting privileges.

[Kubur]

Dear All,
I just came back from a long trip.
I'm really sorry that my innocent question brought such quarrels.
Thank you very much ALL and A special thanks to Ibrahiim.

I have two news.

First the blade is hard, not flexible.
Old with a very good patina
sharp also, I'm not an expert but I think that it's a perfect sword for fight.
with a very good balance

second, i was wrong the hilt is not plain wood
but covered with a thick and hard brown leather

in fact this sword is absolutely amazing
and i wont do anything on it...

Again thank you all and really sorry for the strong and different opinions expressed here... The more important is to stay between gentlemen.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear All,
I just came back from a long trip.
I'm really sorry that my innocent question brought such quarrels.
Thank you very much ALL and A special thanks to Ibrahiim.

I have two news.

First the blade is hard, not flexible.
Old with a very good patina
sharp also, I'm not an expert but I think that it's a perfect sword for fight.
with a very good balance

second, i was wrong the hilt is not plain wood
but covered with a thick and hard brown leather

in fact this sword is absolutely amazing
and i wont do anything on it...

Again thank you all and really sorry for the strong and different opinions expressed here... The more important is to stay between gentlemen.

Salaams Kubur, Thank you for your encouraging words. Whilst this is not a competition I believe it would be honourable to wait a week or so before I re enter this discussion which will allow time for a full reflection on the terms this sword appears to be suggesting. I look forward to the details which I suggest will be heavily weighted from my viewpoint on this being a European rehilt. If possible I would ask if the hilt can be x-rayed... I have a good friend who is a VET with a portable x-ray machine... perhaps you know someone ..It will determine if the tang has been altered.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Andrew

This post just bought you a 10 day suspension of your posting privileges.

Thank You. for your consideration.

Spiral

[spiral]

Hi Kuber,

I see Ibrahim hasbt found the time or inclination to repley around your Kattara yet, So ill offer a little help.

There are 6 types of Omani Swords.


1.The Old Omani Battle Sword. Battle Sword. Straight and stiff.
2.The Curved Kattara. Merchant and Slavers Sword. Curved. Quite rigid..
3.The Omani Dancing Sword. Pageants and Salutations ...The Dynastic Item...Dynasty started 1744 but sword would have taken time to promote perhaps 15 years. Straight and very flexible.
4. The straight bladed fighting Kattara
5. The straight bladed kattara fake made by dodgy Omani dealers in the souk.
6. The Omani Fighting Shamshir.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Hi Kuber,

I see Ibrahim hasbt found the time or inclination to repley around your Kattara yet, So ill offer a little help.

There are 6 types of Omani Swords.


1.The Old Omani Battle Sword. Battle Sword. Straight and stiff.
2.The Curved Kattara. Merchant and Slavers Sword. Curved. Quite rigid..
3.The Omani Dancing Sword. Pageants and Salutations ...The Dynastic Item...Dynasty started 1744 but sword would have taken time to promote perhaps 15 years. Straight and very flexible.
4. The straight bladed fighting Kattara
5. The straight bladed kattara fake made by dodgy Omani dealers in the souk.
6. The Omani Fighting Shamshir.

Spiral

Salaams Spiral,
No not at all ... Ive been hugely busy on a completely different subject but I apologise if you were waiting ..

You have listed 6 swords of Oman. There are, however, not 6. Your first three are correct... with the slight proviso that the 1744 and the 15 year thing was me rather thinking aloud as it is now possible that the dancing sword may have been tuned in by the later ruler in 1804 (Said Bin Sultan...) and it may have taken a while to spread countrywide ...from its base in the Askeris or Palace Guard possession.

Your number;

4. Is non existant.
5. Is a non starter since it was only since 1970 that thousands of these rehilts have been sold as Tourist items in the souk... German/ Ethiopian Rehilts.
6. Is clearly imprecise since in Oman the Shamshiir was a badge of office reserved almost singly for Royalty / very important people.

The trouble is like many objects of this nature it is extremely difficult to narrow it down as to start point. That being said we have despite the difficulties engineered some very logical and often well backed up theories.

The major document apart from the one in my head (comprising about 30 years of personal research) is the Richardson and Dorr double volume ...but even that and others plus documentation from prestigious places like Icoman and Omanisilver dot com and the wealth of museums in Muscat are sprinkled with imprecise detail.. they never say for example : This sword was invented in WXYZ or this battle saw the following weapons deployed.... it simply does not exist in the archives so far studied.

One of my main resources is the Funun which wasn't even written down; such is the nature of passed down parents-to-offspring of Omani history via pageantry, pantomime, singing and poetry.... and for additional good reasons since, in the old days hardly anyone here could read and write !! Vital background in this respect should be studied at http://www.octm-folk.gov.om/meng/rhythem.asp


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral,
No not at all ... Ive been hugely busy on a completely different subject but I apologise if you were waiting ..
.

Your apologies are due to Kuber, not I ... I was just jogging your memory.

But you still haven't appraised the detail of his sword yet. {As you said you would.} Instead you choose to reply to me.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

You have listed 6 swords of Oman. There are, however, not 6. Your first three are correct... with the slight proviso that the 1744 and the 15 year thing was me rather thinking aloud as it is now possible that the dancing sword may have been tuned in by the later ruler in 1804 (Said Bin Sultan...) and it may have taken a while to spread countrywide ...from its base in the Askeris or Palace Guard possession.

Your number;

4. Is non existant.
5. Is a non starter since it was only since 1970 that thousands of these rehilts have been sold as Tourist items in the souk... German/ Ethiopian Rehilts.
6. Is clearly imprecise since in Oman the Shamshiir was a badge of office reserved almost singly for Royalty / very important people.

.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.... I disagree though.
After all 4. does exist, Old Tippo tuo had one

5. You deny 5, When it is you who tell us how your friends have been making & selling them since 1970... so clearly you know this type exists.

6, whats imprecise about shamshir from Oman? The dress is recognisable. {Please explain without talking about ,things that are not relevant.}

So I think in future many of us will recognise & refer to these 6 types of Omani swords. I certainly will.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Spiral, just curious. In your last post you are making well stated comments expressing your views, but .....
claiming someone is mistaken or confused
if you choose to bury your head in the sand
Accusatory remarks about #5
#6 please explain in great detail ..without
getting confused etc etc.

Really????

I know you are well versed in these topics, and your posts reflect useful information as a rule, but I am a bit disappointed in these kinds of remarks .
I enjoy the discourse on these threads and we all learn a lot together, but this kind of stuff is .....well, you know what I mean.

I'm just sayin' ....and not just to you, but everyone who resorts to these kinds of comments. Courtesy and respect .......try to remember those and its not just toward others, it reflects on yourselves as well.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Spiral, just curious. In your last post you are making well stated comments expressing your views, but .....
claiming someone is mistaken or confused
if you choose to bury your head in the sand
Accusatory remarks about #5
#6 please explain in great detail ..without
getting confused etc etc.

Really????

I know you are well versed in these topics, and your posts reflect useful information as a rule, but I am a bit disappointed in these kinds of remarks .
I enjoy the discourse on these threads and we all learn a lot together, but this kind of stuff is .....well, you know what I mean.

I'm just sayin' ....and not just to you, but everyone who resorts to these kinds of comments. Courtesy and respect .......try to remember those and its not just toward others, it reflects on yourselves as well.

Thank you for the timely reminder Jim. Your quite right of course & Ive edited my post to correct that.

All the best,
Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by spiral

Thank you for the timely reminder Jim. Your quite right of course & Ive edited my post to correct that.

All the best,
Spiral

Thanks Spiral, I just want us all to stay focused on the subject matter and express our views without rancor or frustration, we're all better than that
Much appreciated,
All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral,
No not at all ... Ive been hugely busy on a completely different subject but I apologise if you were waiting ..

You have listed 6 swords of Oman. There are, however, not 6. Your first three are correct... with the slight proviso that the 1744 and the 15 year thing was me rather thinking aloud as it is now possible that the dancing sword may have been tuned in by the later ruler in 1804 (Said Bin Sultan...) and it may have taken a while to spread countrywide ...from its base in the Askeris or Palace Guard possession.

Your number;

4. Is non existant.
5. Is a non starter since it was only since 1970 that thousands of these rehilts have been sold as Tourist items in the souk... German/ Ethiopian Rehilts.
6. Is clearly imprecise since in Oman the Shamshiir was a badge of office reserved almost singly for Royalty / very important people.

The trouble is like many objects of this nature it is extremely difficult to narrow it down as to start point. That being said we have despite the difficulties engineered some very logical and often well backed up theories.

The major document apart from the one in my head (comprising about 30 years of personal research) is the Richardson and Dorr double volume ...but even that and others plus documentation from prestigious places like Icoman and Omanisilver dot com and the wealth of museums in Muscat are sprinkled with imprecise detail.. they never say for example : This sword was invented in WXYZ or this battle saw the following weapons deployed.... it simply does not exist in the archives so far studied.

One of my main resources is the Funun which wasn't even written down; such is the nature of passed down parents-to-offspring of Omani history via pageantry, pantomime, singing and poetry.... and for additional good reasons since, in the old days hardly anyone here could read and write !! Vital background in this respect should be studied at http://www.octm-folk.gov.om/meng/rhythem.asp


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

On top of which there are some more superb references about the Sword Genre or Funun, the first of which describes the Razha ..at http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...=21104401332677

The second is highly recommended and since I first refer to it on Kattara for comments it is relevant in a number of threads; The major work done by W.H. Ingrams variously published a number of times but generally referred to as a 1931 edition titled Zanzibar History and its Peoples and on page 205 the entire reference states ... as it is set down in Kattara for comments at #18 0n http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

viz;

Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

Both paragraphs above are correct. The first is word for word the same as in the book and the second paragraph is a paraphrasing out of parenthesis but meaning virtually what is written or very closely to it.This can be found by pressing the link and inserting the simple word Manga into search inside... where the entire paragraph can be sourced. I think there are some versions with an alternative name for Mwarcha ie a minor alteration...but not serious..

The link is http://books.google.co.uk/books/abou...d=oYhrCkGaxyUC

My next reference is The Omani Dancing Sword at #189 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...205#post173205 The by now famous summary.

Thus I begin to hammer in the foundations around the subject which then need disproving by equally relevant references .

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

I would like to remind EVERYONE interested and involved in this thread of the OP's original intent, to get helpful ideas for the restoration of his sword, an inquiry which i do not believe was EVER properly addressed before it became hijacked as an extension on the Omani Dance Sword thread arguments. I would suggest that this is therefore NOT the place to continue what seems to be the never ending battle between certain parties over the existence of straight battle swords vs. flexible dance swords and that continuing along those lines is only likely to bring this thread to the same tragic end as the now infamous dance sword thread.
So, can anyone help Kubur with his restoration questions.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by David

I would like to remind EVERYONE interested and involved in this thread of the OP's original intent, to get helpful ideas for the restoration of his sword, an inquiry which i do not believe was EVER properly addressed before it became hijacked as an extension on the Omani Dance Sword thread arguments. I would suggest that this is therefore NOT the place to continue what seems to be the never ending battle between certain parties over the existence of straight battle swords vs. flexible dance swords and that continuing along those lines is only likely to bring this thread to the same tragic end as the now infamous dance sword thread.
So, can anyone help Kubur with his restoration questions.

I agree. As a result, I am closing this thread as well. So as not to penalize the OP, I will re-start this topic in another thread. If the new thread ends up derailed by OT posts it, too, will be closed.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff