ID on dagger ? - Page 2

hbhansen · 11th January 2012, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

Thanks to everyone for their answers.
here the length of my knife

Not much difference there...

Rick · 11th January 2012, 07:48 PM

I could swear that an example of the original poster's knife form has been through the opinion mill here before .

I just can't find it .

David · 11th January 2012, 08:42 PM

Are you sure you are not thinking of the example that Emmanuel posted in post #25. It looks like it was first posted my Tim back in 2007 in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

Rick · 11th January 2012, 11:40 PM

Okay, so Tim owns or owned the other example of this form .

I can't find the thread on that knife though; got the one on the chopper .

Gavin Nugent · 13th January 2012, 08:52 AM

Perhaps these belong to a member

The top one appears from the angle of the image to share the same style bolster.
The bottom one shares "similar" markings.
The bottom one shares similar simplistic stlye leather/hide sheath with suspension loop.

More for the mystery team

thinreadline · 13th January 2012, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Perhaps these belong to a member

The top one appears from the angle of the image to share the same style bolster.
The bottom one shares "similar" markings.
The bottom one shares similar simplistic stlye leather/hide sheath with suspension loop.

More for the mystery team

And here are my two !

thinreadline · 13th January 2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

And here are my two !

Re my knives , kronckew identified his very similar one as a khodmi from Algeria Bou Sadi , on 21 Dec 2009

Emanuel · 13th January 2012, 03:46 PM

Hello,

I don't think the Bou Saada knives can be compared to the knife in question. The former have an integral bolster forged as part of the blade, whereas the latter has a a separate bolster, very different construction.

The circle motif decoration has been shown on many different types of weapons and objects from around the world with the good argument that it developed independently in most places. It's a simple design

Same with the leather-clad wooden sheath.

I think the knife in question is a north-Indian/Central Asian derivative of the kard

Regards,
Emanuel

Dom · 13th January 2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

Re my knives , kronckew identified his very similar one as a khodmi from Algeria Bou Sadi , on 21 Dec 2009

Hi
I should like to know where are the similitudes between Henrik's knife (beautiful knife)

and ... Bou Saada, in general?

i already have 3 and I see nothing

please HELP ...

à +

Dom

thinreadline · 13th January 2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi
I should like to know where are the similitudes between Henrik's knife (beautiful knife)

and ... Bou Saada, in general?

i already have 3 and I see nothing

please HELP ...

à +

Dom

And I entirely agree with you Dom ...I am not saying that they are similar to Henriks knife , I am just adding a couple of pictures of my Bou Saadi knives to those posted by freebooter . You need to ask freebooter this question !

Dom · 13th January 2012, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

You need to ask freebooter this question !

yes, and I did it after his "friendly tackle"

I explained my position after his terse question "

"Yes but why"

"
may be he doesn't found time to do it ...

because he doesn't answer yet
as all that it's for fun ... it's not important

à +

Dom

chregu · 13th January 2012, 08:17 PM

hello guys
North Africa, wrong way.
Only time fantasizing.
Blade shape. = Working Knife
Handle, I've seen several of these type of knife, never with a wooden handle, always ivory , why? there is no wood in this region? why never with horn handle?
Ivory handle. = There is a lot of ivory there. or ivory as a symbol?
Sheath, a part of the handle is in it, which occurs in many Knife by nomadic tribes so that the knife never get lost.
Why a second leather, on a leather sheath?
Sheath with belt loop = there are trousers worn with a belt or jacket with a belt?
South Asia, no, there are dresses tied with a sash.
These are just thoughts! smile.
gruss chregu

Gavin Nugent · 13th January 2012, 11:14 PM

Hi there

There are many aspects to work with what everyone has written to help us all with yes and no... "but why" should always be asked...it is not much longer than a no, but without "but why" there is no learning

I have quantified through following posts aspects for consideration both in Algeria & North Africa, SEA and Central Asia with both words and images

....without rewriting everything, all views from all people help but things together and in context, is it fun

One must not forget colonial powers within any region and cutlery made for their tastes by native hands rather than keeping our minds eye native styles used by native people...could be Pakistan for all I know but offering information right or wrong and offering similarities and accuracies for thought may cloud but it also helps in the big picture.

Chegru, great to see further working deductions...no North Africa...do you dismiss Africa totally? I still feel with a qualified "in me bones" Africa....

Northern too

The finish to the steel blade, although I am not a blacksmith, this "rough" slag like finish I have seen often in daggers from Albacete....perhaps others have seen the finish elsewhere too

All for now

Gavin Nugent · 14th January 2012, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

The scabbard strap and clasp arrangement on Chregu's example is again, close to those seen on 20th century British khukri. Same kind of belt attachment.

Emanuel

Please provide an image

The same suspension arrangement is seen on the knife at the bottom post number 35

Also the Turkish knife of similar construction in post 16

I am sure countless other types of knife too....

Edit; Thanks for the update with images, certainly only one of the Kukri sheaths are suspended in this manner of the knife in question, the others are not....can't help but remember my sold item stock s117, it is frog suspended, not stictched to the body of the sheath....credits or asking permission to use copyright images would be appreciated....

Gav

delor · 14th January 2012, 09:00 AM

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

Gavin Nugent · 14th January 2012, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

My thoughts too Delor as this is the 4th of this style I have seen in the last few years...I know Bonhams listed one a while back too....

Gav

A.alnakkas · 14th January 2012, 01:28 PM

Hello All,

I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell.

I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!

Gavin Nugent · 14th January 2012, 02:44 PM

North Africa is a big place;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa

Emanuel · 15th January 2012, 01:17 AM

My apologies for uploading pictures from Google Images without visiting the website of those images indexed by Google to ask their copyright owner permission to use them on a public forum.

Gavin Nugent · 15th January 2012, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

My apologies for uploading pictures from Google Images without visiting the website of those images indexed by Google to ask their copyright owner permission to use them on a public forum.

Tis ok, thank you

hbhansen · 16th January 2012, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

When I hold the knife, i'm quite sure it's not a tourist's knife, it feels well made, solid and just to good for that purpose.
Today I reshaped one of the bends on the blade. It doesn't feel soft, IMO medium.
Best
Henrik

Gavin Nugent · 17th January 2012, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbhansen

When I hold the knife, i'm quite sure it's not a tourist's knife, it feels well made, solid and just to good for that purpose.
Today I reshaped one of the bends on the blade. It doesn't feel soft, IMO medium.
Best
Henrik

I don't think "tourist" is correct either. These are of a type, to me eye colonialist influenced solid utility knives...origins unknown

thinreadline · 17th January 2012, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hello All,

I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell.

I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!

Yes . The decorative motifs seem to be remarkably much like the Afghani knife you have recently posted on the 'Choora' thread.

hbhansen · 19th January 2012, 08:41 PM

I just found one more feature, that I missed in the first place.... This is only on the stamped side of the blade...

spiral · 19th January 2012, 11:56 PM

That features a rivet, the bolster isnt truly integral, ill post a kukri & some Karda in a few days that show some very similar features.

I think its NWF to Veitnam on horzontal travel, Southern China to southern Burma or Thailand on the vertical.

My real guess is Bengal/Assam/ Northen Burma....... small diameter ivory is Common , steel is at a preimium.

But nothing that makes the fat lady sing.....

Spiral

Richard G · 22nd January 2012, 06:38 PM

Thank you, Ibrahim and Jim, for your welcoming replies to my previous post.

This may put the cat amongst the pigeons. The materials, construction and decorative motifs are all the same as Henrik's original dagger, but the style certainly isn't. I don't know where it's from either, my gut feeling is Nepal or Afghanistan. I suspect the stamps on the blade will be the feature that will eventually identify the origin. To me they seem very distinctive, and very, very, heavily struck. I wonder if anyone has seen them on any other metalwork. BTW, this is a hefty piece, 17" long overall.

I seem to remember something similar once being described in an auction catalogue as Swahili Arab, but I can't remember any evidence for this.

I thought my previous photo's s bit OTT so I've tried to scale these back a bit.

Regards
Richard

hbhansen · 22nd January 2012, 11:08 PM

Hi Richard.
That's very interesting ! Thanks for posting. There's no doubt that your piece and mine is from the same region !
But where is that

Best
Henrik

chregu · 23rd January 2012, 09:51 AM

hello together
We are getting slowly closer! smile
definitely the same area! but no idea where.

Gavin Nugent · 2nd February 2012, 04:32 AM

There are similarities here;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832

I also have found some other images to share later.

Gav

The later update....

The knife, although it has no bolster, is a warthog tusk, simple blade and red and black circle work. The pistol shares a butt with a similar style to the knife seen in post 56?...it appears North African...

I think the direction of thought can move back to Africa proper.

I still have a feeling/memory of North Africa, not saying itis right or wrong.
Perhaps, if these were north African, the Kaskara blade in the thread came by way of northern trade...fanciful but not beyond the realm of plausability.

Gav

Emanuel · 9th February 2012, 06:18 AM

Thought I'd add another chopper, originally posted by Tim in his thread. The pictures are from Field Service Antiques. This chopper is clearly from the same region as the knives in question. FSA had labelled it as a 19th century sacrificial sword - ram dao from north India, possibly Assam. The validity of this ID remains to be confirmed...The hilt does bring Burmese treatment to mind so perhaps not too far off.

Emanuel

13th January 2012, 08:52 AM	#35
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Perhaps these belong to a member The top one appears from the angle of the image to share the same style bolster. The bottom one shares "similar" markings. The bottom one shares similar simplistic stlye leather/hide sheath with suspension loop. More for the mystery team Attached Images

13th January 2012, 03:46 PM	#38
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, I don't think the Bou Saada knives can be compared to the knife in question. The former have an integral bolster forged as part of the blade, whereas the latter has a a separate bolster, very different construction. The circle motif decoration has been shown on many different types of weapons and objects from around the world with the good argument that it developed independently in most places. It's a simple design Same with the leather-clad wooden sheath. I think the knife in question is a north-Indian/Central Asian derivative of the kard Regards, Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 13th January 2012 at 04:17 PM.

13th January 2012, 11:14 PM	#43
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi there There are many aspects to work with what everyone has written to help us all with yes and no... "but why" should always be asked...it is not much longer than a no, but without "but why" there is no learning I have quantified through following posts aspects for consideration both in Algeria & North Africa, SEA and Central Asia with both words and images ....without rewriting everything, all views from all people help but things together and in context, is it fun One must not forget colonial powers within any region and cutlery made for their tastes by native hands rather than keeping our minds eye native styles used by native people...could be Pakistan for all I know but offering information right or wrong and offering similarities and accuracies for thought may cloud but it also helps in the big picture. Chegru, great to see further working deductions...no North Africa...do you dismiss Africa totally? I still feel with a qualified "in me bones" Africa.... Northern too The finish to the steel blade, although I am not a blacksmith, this "rough" slag like finish I have seen often in daggers from Albacete....perhaps others have seen the finish elsewhere too All for now Last edited by freebooter; 13th January 2012 at 11:56 PM.

19th January 2012, 08:41 PM	#54
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	I just found one more feature, that I missed in the first place.... This is only on the stamped side of the blade... Attached Images

22nd January 2012, 06:38 PM	#56
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	Thank you, Ibrahim and Jim, for your welcoming replies to my previous post. This may put the cat amongst the pigeons. The materials, construction and decorative motifs are all the same as Henrik's original dagger, but the style certainly isn't. I don't know where it's from either, my gut feeling is Nepal or Afghanistan. I suspect the stamps on the blade will be the feature that will eventually identify the origin. To me they seem very distinctive, and very, very, heavily struck. I wonder if anyone has seen them on any other metalwork. BTW, this is a hefty piece, 17" long overall. I seem to remember something similar once being described in an auction catalogue as Swahili Arab, but I can't remember any evidence for this. I thought my previous photo's s bit OTT so I've tried to scale these back a bit. Regards Richard Attached Images

11th January 2012, 07:48 PM	#32
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	I could swear that an example of the original poster's knife form has been through the opinion mill here before . I just can't find it .

11th January 2012, 08:42 PM	#33
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Are you sure you are not thinking of the example that Emmanuel posted in post #25. It looks like it was first posted my Tim back in 2007 in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

11th January 2012, 11:40 PM	#34
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Okay, so Tim owns or owned the other example of this form . I can't find the thread on that knife though; got the one on the chopper .

13th January 2012, 08:17 PM	#42
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello guys North Africa, wrong way. Only time fantasizing. Blade shape. = Working Knife Handle, I've seen several of these type of knife, never with a wooden handle, always ivory , why? there is no wood in this region? why never with horn handle? Ivory handle. = There is a lot of ivory there. or ivory as a symbol? Sheath, a part of the handle is in it, which occurs in many Knife by nomadic tribes so that the knife never get lost. Why a second leather, on a leather sheath? Sheath with belt loop = there are trousers worn with a belt or jacket with a belt? South Asia, no, there are dresses tied with a sash. These are just thoughts! smile. gruss chregu

14th January 2012, 09:00 AM	#45
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects. There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

14th January 2012, 01:28 PM	#47
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hello All, I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell. I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!

14th January 2012, 02:44 PM	#48
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	North Africa is a big place; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa

15th January 2012, 01:17 AM	#49
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	My apologies for uploading pictures from Google Images without visiting the website of those images indexed by Google to ask their copyright owner permission to use them on a public forum.

19th January 2012, 11:56 PM	#55
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	That features a rivet, the bolster isnt truly integral, ill post a kukri & some Karda in a few days that show some very similar features. I think its NWF to Veitnam on horzontal travel, Southern China to southern Burma or Thailand on the vertical. My real guess is Bengal/Assam/ Northen Burma....... small diameter ivory is Common , steel is at a preimium. But nothing that makes the fat lady sing..... Spiral

22nd January 2012, 11:08 PM	#57
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	Hi Richard. That's very interesting ! Thanks for posting. There's no doubt that your piece and mine is from the same region ! But where is that Best Henrik

23rd January 2012, 09:51 AM	#58
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together We are getting slowly closer! smile definitely the same area! but no idea where.

2nd February 2012, 04:32 AM	#59
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	There are similarities here; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832 I also have found some other images to share later. Gav The later update.... The knife, although it has no bolster, is a warthog tusk, simple blade and red and black circle work. The pistol shares a butt with a similar style to the knife seen in post 56?...it appears North African... I think the direction of thought can move back to Africa proper. I still have a feeling/memory of North Africa, not saying itis right or wrong. Perhaps, if these were north African, the Kaskara blade in the thread came by way of northern trade...fanciful but not beyond the realm of plausability. Gav Attached Images Last edited by freebooter; 2nd February 2012 at 12:12 PM. Reason: The later update

9th February 2012, 06:18 AM	#60
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thought I'd add another chopper, originally posted by Tim in his thread. The pictures are from Field Service Antiques. This chopper is clearly from the same region as the knives in question. FSA had labelled it as a 19th century sacrificial sword - ram dao from north India, possibly Assam. The validity of this ID remains to be confirmed...The hilt does bring Burmese treatment to mind so perhaps not too far off. Emanuel Attached Images