![]() |
![]() |
#31 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
'Pirate manual', aye? I always knew you were a true scalawag, Jim!
![]() ![]() I was wondering if anyone with knowlegde of munitions has any concrete stories or historical references to portable coehorn cannons being taken to sea. In Gilkerson's 'Borders Away II', he seems to discourage the idea that a short-range portable mortar that fired an anti-personnel shell that dispersed grapeshot had much use in naval battles. Yet, many books mention coehorns and mention their use. True, it might have been a limited bombardment with two ships near each other and one basically lobbing shells onto the others' deck. Let's face it, the whole purpose of the 'fighting tops' was to kill as many of the enemy sailors on their decks as bullets would allow. Likewise, thrown grenadoes had the same effect. So why not a coehorn shell? Gilkerson says (I'm quoting from memory, so I might be wrong) that the fire produced from the blast could have set fire to the rigging, but this explanation seems weak, considering the use of swival guns, which also produced flame. Perhaps it was the unpredictability of the scattering of grape? With the swivals and cannon, the shot would have been directed directly at the enemy ship, whereas the lobbed coehorn shell came down and exploded, sending projectiles in every direction. Thoughts, anyone? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#32 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
![]() Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 28th February 2009 at 01:45 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#33 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
Bump. Anyone comments on coehorns at sea?
More shot... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Di...balls_Vasa.jpg |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#34 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
PRO E36/13, pp.55-62: Inventory of the Mary Rose, 27 July 1514
Ordnance, artillery & habillaments (implements) of war left in the said ship in the charge and custody of John Browne master, & John Bryarley purser, of the same, by indenture as is aforesaid, that is to say - (margin) Great curtows of brass 5 Murderers of brass 2 Chambers to the same 3 Falcons of brass 2 Falconets of brass 3 Great murderers of iron 1 Chambers to the same 1 Murderers of iron of another sort 2 Chambers to the same 4 Cast pieces of iron 2 Chambers to the same 4 Murderers of iron of another sort 1 Chambers to the same 2 Slings of iron called demi-slings 2 Chambers to the same 4 Stone-guns 26 Top-guns 3 Chambers to the same 75 Serpentines of iron 28 Chambers to the same 107 Forelocks for stone-guns, top-guns and serpentines 94 Myches (swivels) to the same 80 Stone shot, great and small 500 A little gun of brass without (a) chamber 1 Hammers for guns 13 Picks for stone 22 Heads for arrows of wildfire 8 Hocks for arrows of wildfire 29 Strings 600 Bags of leather 9 Parchment skins 20 Lead - 2.25 sows and certain cast (lead) Charging ladles of copper 2 Ladles of iron for casting pellets 2 Bolts of iron 17 Bows 20 Arrows 20 Bills (pole weapons) 20 Artillery and habillaments of war delivered to John Millet & Thomas Elderton by bill signed by with the hands of the foresaid commissioners, that is to say - (margin) Hacbusshes (muskets) 91 Iron shot of divers sorts 457 Iron shot with cross-bars 120 Lead pellets, great and small 1000 Pellets for hacbusshes 900 Iron dice (for shot) 1500 Arrows of wildfire (incendiaries) 74 Balls of wildfire 2 Salets (helmets) 180 Breast(-plates) 206 Gorgets (armoured neck pieces) 146 Splints (leg armour) 172 pairs Gun-powder 21.5 barrels Gun-powder cartridges 1 chest-full Charging-ladles for falcons and curtows 7 Sponges to the same 6 Stamps 3 Iron crow(-bars) 14 Bows of yew 123 Chests to the same 2 Arrows 504 sheaves Chests to the same 11 Bills 218 Stakes for the field (pointed wooden stakes) 149 Morris pikes 159 From http://www.maryrose.org/project/index.html Michael |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#35 | |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]() Quote:
Thanks a lot for that important link, Mark! ![]() I hope you do not object to my posting that image of various shot found on the Vasa, which sank in 1628. Thanks again, Michael |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#36 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
Mark,
Here is a link to some very cheap copies of Dudley Pope's Guns at abebooks.com: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/p/...-pope/guns.htm Michael |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#37 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
Michael,
Thank you so much for the link to the Dudley Pope book. Just purchased a copy. Thanks, also, for the extensive ordenance listing from the Mary Rose. I am frankly surprised at some of the items on that list being ordenance and not merchandise being shipped. In the later years of "Fighting Sail", with the exception of cutlass, muskets, pike, axes and of course, cannon and shot, there was little else carried for battle. In this early listing, we see breastplates, slings, arrows, and even those implements needed to make more shot, etc. Very interesting. Yes, the Vasa is incredible and I hope to someday see it in person in my lifetime. Amazing to see a ship raised as it was in such perfect condition. Very glad you posting more pics of this important vessel. Mark |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#38 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]()
Another image for reference. These items are from the "Victory"
Gav |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#39 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
Good material - thanks a lot, Gav!
Michael |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#40 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
Just fascinating how many forms and types of barshot there really were. makes me want to lay my hands on an authentic piece. Too bad way out of my price range! Maybe someday...
![]() Got my Dudley Pope book today! Awsome volume! I particularly like all of the artillary pieces covered here. Not your typical book on the subject. Thanks, Michael and Fernando, for mentioning it. Last edited by M ELEY; 13th March 2009 at 04:12 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#41 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
Only one piece complete.
Sold Bonhams 2007. Michael |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#42 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
An illustration of ca. 1560 picturing chain shot and a shell .
Michael |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#43 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
This specimen was sold for 555 euro on Ebay in April 2009. It does not actually look very old to me, telling from the patina, maybe 19th century.
m |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#44 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
Yet another awesome piece, Michael. Thanks for posting it. I had a question...
In your experience, have you ever seen a piece of barshot of the type with disc ends that had a round bar vs the square bar commonly seen? Kind of like a barbell? From my research, it seems that the French favored the kinds with the disc-like ends (think 'hockey-puck') vs the full round (American/Brit) and half round shot ends (Brit). Your thoughts? Also, any indication that factories that made dumbells in the mid-late 19th centuries also produced these? There's a Civil War site that has a small listing of round barshot for sale that are pretty much identical to barbells. They show some age and have black primer like naval items, but then again, most of the weights of this period appear as such, so...? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#45 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
Hi Mark,
The only bar shot with disc ends I have ever seen was published by Dudley Pope. I posted it earlier above, p. 1. I am sorry to say that I do not know anything about manufacturing or national preferences of shapes. I just like them the way they are. ![]() Michael |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#46 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
Thanks for replying, Michael. Yes, this is a bit of an obscure subject. I do appreciate all the pics you've posted of bar- and chainshot. You just don't see much of it now-adays to find much research on it.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#47 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
Hi there,
I found this yesterday. Best, Michael |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#48 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]() Quote:
roundshot was deliberately aimed to strike before advancing troops so it would skip and take out the whole file. troops prayed for soft ground that would absorb the shot without skipping. along with grape, cannister, and langridge, as well as the thousands of musket balls flying about, i'm surprised at how few actually were wounded or killed, even tho it was in the thousands at such battles, many more made it, and in most cases disease actually killed more than firearms. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#49 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,880
|
![]() Quote:
Michael thank you for that stunning photo and shown with the open book to set wonderful context, its great to see this thread revived and on such a fascinating topic. Kronckew, thank you for this dynamic perspective and it is great to get a more realistic picture, though gruesome, of how warfare was in those times. I think one of the best books I ever read on the subject was "The Face of Battle" by the late John Keegan of Sandhurst. He truly showed the nature of human reaction in terrible combat situations, and it is so interesting to better understand how people thought and responded in these circumstances. I think I mentioned before in this thread or elsewhere, my great grandfather who was a Civil War veteran in reading one of his accounts in a newspaper article recounting his memoirs, when asked if he was ever wounded responded, "..nah, got hit by a cannonball at St.Petersburg but didn't hurt me none!". Naturally thoughts were was this simply embellished hyperbole of an extremely old soldier? or might this have been an extraordinarily 'spent' ball bouncing along as described. I always thought it was a curious tale ![]() Much better perspective on it now . All very best, Jim |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#50 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
Hi Michl,
Quote:
Not certainly a prison chain ... But it looks a bit odd for chain shot ... or am i short sighted ? ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#51 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
Thanks a lot for you inputs, Jim, Kronckew and 'Nando,
![]() I was sent this image about two years ago by an East German antiquarian book deealer (sedulitas) and they assured me that both the ball and chain illustrated were a half ball from a chain shot, and they were not willing to sell it. They regarded it as kind of permanent historical decorative basis for advertisimg their old mss. So that's all I can telly you, folks, sorry though I am. ![]() Best, Michael |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#52 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#53 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
![]()
Brilliantly observed!
![]() I overlooked these important items ... ![]() Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 7th November 2011 at 12:16 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#54 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
So many times for the early types of barshot, one sees the four-sided bar attached to two cylindrical balls. I have heard others say that the classic barbell type with round bar and balls existed, perhaps late 18th/early 19th century? I have what I believe to be one of these types and will post pics. The only other thing one might say is that it is so-called "early strongman circus barbell type", but mine seems to fit the pattern of barshot better.
![]() Does anyone have any arsenal pics or museum artifacts showing this type? I've been researching this area for awhile, but not alot of indepth info out there... |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#55 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#56 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
Point well taken, but I have seen fully round barshot, not the half shot popular with British and American ships. It's just that the full shot always seem to have the square bars, yet many contemporary sources will show penciled sketches of barshot looking exactly like barbells (i.e. with a rounded bar). Michael shows one example above in close-up of what appears to be what I'm speaking of, but it is broken and consists of just the ball and a partial stub of a round bar. Can anyone find other examples??
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#57 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
http://marinhadeguerraportuguesa.blo...de-lisboa.html . |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#58 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
Thanks, Fernando. I had some old sites showing potential barshot for which I'm speaking, but upon trying to upload sites and pics from them, none still work-
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#59 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#60 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,087
|
![]()
Attachments...maybe?! The second reported to be War of 1812 with provenance from battle site.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|