Indian Swords with downward curving blades

[estcrh]

Miguel, nice examples, thanks for sharing your pictures.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Thanks for getting back to me Miguel,

I am sorry to hear of your misfortune with your PC, I hope you can rectify the problem quickly and with the minimum of hassle and financial outlay!

Afghanistan is certainly a possibility for the plainer of your two kukris, although I wouldn't rule it out as being Indian in origin also. I would also revise the age estimate given by your son's friend to mid to late 19th century.

I will start a hunt for the stamp as soon as I return home later this week, and shall let you know if I find any further information.

With kind regards,

Chris

Hello Chris,

I tend to agree wit you regarding the age. My original thoughts were that the origin was Indian I never gave Afghanistan a thought but it seems that there may be a likely hood that it could have been made there so at the moment the jury is still out on this one but I am hoping that you may confirm it one way or the other. I very much appreciate your input.

My PC is with the repairers and I am not expecting to have it returned for at least another week. All the signs indicate that the main processor has failed, just hope the hard drive is OK.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by ariel

Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.

Hi Ariel,
Thanks for the info, I never gave Afghanistan a thought with regard to this type of weapon. I am learning something new all the time on this forum.
Regards
Miguel

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by ariel

Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.

Hello Ariel,

Here is one of my examples of such a stamp. All the ones I have seen on kukris date from the early to mind 1890's.

Kind regards,

Chris

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/...4251306500.htm

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/...4251306500.htm

Very interesting Jens, thank you!

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Miguel, nice examples, thanks for sharing your pictures.

My pleasure and thanks for grouping them together, it makes it easier to compare both sides at the same time.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Hello Ariel,

Here is one of my examples of such a stamp. All the ones I have seen on kukris date from the early to mind 1890's.

Kind regards,

Chris

Hello Chris,

Interesting stamp but nothing like mine which, if all such stamps are similar to yours,makes me lean more towards India than Afghanistan.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/...4251306500.htm

Hi Jens,

Thank you for such an interesting article it certainly makes you think. The history of India is fascinating and extremely complex and just as you think that you have found an answer you discover something else which takes you off on a different track.

I am fairly sure in my own mind that the Kukri form originated from India.
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Miguel,

You are welcome. When it comes to the size of the daggers/swords, it is hard to say how long they were, and the men looks like dwarfs, but maybe that was the artistic style of the time.

The way I remember the text I once read, it went like this. 'About the 12th century the people of southeast India was beaten in a big battle, and as a consequence they moved to the north, and some to the Himmalaya area.'
The problem is, that I read this long ago, and I am not sure in which book I read it, but should I find the book and the sentence I will try to remember to let you know.

Yes the history of India is fascinating, but complicated, like you say. But you must not forget that India is a huge country, and not only that, it is a very huge country. To this comes that it was very rich, so other people found it most interesting to pay them a visit.

In an article I have read about some of the different forts in India from the 16th and 17th century, the author gives the awarage hight if the soldiers to about 170 cm. I am, however, not sure that the same measure can be used here.

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Miguel,

Hindu Arms and Ritual. Eburon Achademic Publishers, 2015. Page 83. Robert Elgood shows the attached and writes.

"Gana holding a sword. Mahishamardini cave Temple. Mamallapuram Pallava. Mid-seventh century.
Ganas were diminitive gods or attendants who served as arms bearers for the great gods. The square 'cussion' pommel, invariable made of wood in later examples, is already evident as is the forward curved blade which continues in use for centuries, the late form being the sosan pattah."

So not only does he show a very early example, but he also tells why the man is so small.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Miguel,

Hindu Arms and Ritual. Eburon Achademic Publishers, 2015. Page 83. Robert Elgood shows the attached and writes.

"Gana holding a sword. Mahishamardini cave Temple. Mamallapuram Pallava. Mid-seventh century.
Ganas were diminitive gods or attendants who served as arms bearers for the great gods. The square 'cussion' pommel, invariable made of wood in later examples, is already evident as is the forward curved blade which continues in use for centuries, the late form being the sosan pattah."

So not only does he show a very early example, but he also tells why the man is so small.

Hi Jens,

Fascinating, if that doesn't look like a Khukri nothing does, it convinces me even more that that the Khukri form originated from India. The image also reminded me of the Ayda Katti the weapon of the Coorgs (Kodava people) who, as you know, are in South West India. Apparently this weapon did not appear until the 17thC a century later than the oldest known Khukri which means that up to 10 centuries passed from the weapon shown on the carving to the finding of the Khukri. Thank you once again for sharing this information, it is most appreciated and keeps my appetite whetted.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

You are welcome.
About the size of the weapon we can only guess, but if the man is a dwarf like Elgood says, and if the proportions are correct, and if we (guessing) say the man was 130 cm tall the sword must have been about 75 cm long. This is all guessing, but it is likely to have been quite big.

It is possible that the Adya Katti developed from such a sword/dagger, but from which kind of weapon did the weapon Elgood shows develop?

I do hope you will take up the challange and start to research it, and tell us to which conclusion you come.

Jens

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

You are welcome.
About the size of the weapon we can only guess, but if the man is a dwarf like Elgood says, and if the proportions are correct, and if we (guessing) say the man was 130 cm tall the sword must have been about 75 cm long. This is all guessing, but it is likely to have been quite big.

It is possible that the Adya Katti developed from such a sword/dagger, but from which kind of weapon did the weapon Elgood shows develop?

I do hope you will take up the challange and start to research it, and tell us to which conclusion you come.

Jens

Hi Jens,

I will do my best but before that I need to scratch an itch which started when I saw the image from Elgood and that is to discover where the Coorgs originated from before they settled in the mountain area of south west India.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Chris,
Thank you for your interesting comments on the Kukris. Apology accepted, better late than never. I have now obtained more than three quotes which fix the time period and use for the wide decorated Kukri and am well satisfied. Not quite so with the plain one although I pretty certain that it's name is a Kukri with a Talwar hilt as obvious as that. A friend of my youngest son owns a business in Katmandu and researching Nepali weapons is one of the services he offers. This person has advised that the blade stamp is 99 per cent Afghanistan and that a number of these blades were produced in the late 18th early 19thC. He pointed out that the Gurkhas were in the North West Frontier for well over 100 years and also in Afghanistan. A contingent apparently as guards for the British installed Sultan. It will be very interesting if your enquiries could confirm this. There is a problem
, however, as my PC decided to stop working yesterday so it will be a while before I will be able to provide you with a clearer image of the blade stamp as I will have to have it repaired or worse purchase a new one. I am sending this reply from my iPad but I can't send photos as systems are not compatible. Your comments on my Kora were most appreciated.
Regards
Miguel

Hi Chris,
I now have my repaired PC back thank goodness. I have tried to get a better photo of the blade mark but without success, probably due to my ineptitude with the camera, sorry we will have to make do with the one weve already got.
Regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
I have read about it not so long ago, so I may be able to find out where I read it. Maybe one of my books will help me. When I find out I will let you know.
Jens

[mrcjgscott]

This has developed into a very interesting thread, thank you all!!

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Chris,
I now have my repaired PC back thank goodness. I have tried to get a better photo of the blade mark but without success, probably due to my ineptitude with the camera, sorry we will have to make do with the one weve already got.
Regards
Miguel

Not to worry Miguel,

Pleased to hear your PC has made a full recovery.

I will try to enhance the image we already have and work from that. My search continues, when time allows!

Best wishes,

Chris

[Jens Nordlunde]

The Mahishamardini cave Temple it at the east coast of India - but you no doubt know that. Coorg is, as you know, on the west coast of India, so the two places are very far apart.
The weapon shown by Elgood could be related to the adya katti, but it seems to be closer related at the kukri. How?
I think the answer will found be in studying the early Indian history of this area.

[Miguel]

Hi Jens, Thank you for the information. I agree that the weapon on the carving looks more like the Khukri than the Ayda Katti but to me there is some resemblance between the two, anyway I take your point and will carry on with my research.

Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply and hope you can discover more about the stamp.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
I dont know if you have Elgood's book Hindu Arms and Ritual, but on page 234 under Ayudha katti he writes. " Used all over Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka where they continue to have an agricultural use."
It is the first time I have seen this, and unfortunately Elgood doesn't write when that was.
The mentioning of Sri Lanka is interresting, as the dwarf with the 'kukri' is from the east coast of India and 7th century - and this leads me to recommend the following book.
Majumdar, R. C.:Suvarnadvipa – Hindu Colonies of the Far East. Vol. I-II. 1937. Cosmo Publications, reprint 2004.
It is the story about how the Indian Hindu princes colonised the countries to the east of India between the 8th and 11th century.

I wish you good luck with your reseach

[blue lander]

The auction for this one recently ended, nobody bid on it. It was described as a "Ayda Katti" from the Malabar Coast. I *think* the blade is downward curving? It's hard to tell which edge is sharpened. From the orientation of the hilt I'd imagine it'd be hard to wield if it was upward curving.

[Jens Nordlunde]

blue lander,
I wonder why no one bought it?
The edge is on the straight underside. This is a Hindu adya katti, but the Muhamedans also had a weapon like it called moplah knife.
According to Stone, Egerton called the Muhamedan knife for an adya katti, so that may be why there is some confusion about the names.

[Miguel]

I also wonder why no one bid for it as it seems in quite good condition. You are right about the names, the weapon of the Malabar coast is called a Moplah and the war sword of the Coorgs is the Ayda Katti. I read something the other week on what the name Ayda Katti meant but I don't remember what it said but I will try and find the article again and let you know.
Thank you again Jens for taking the time out to share with me some of your knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
It is sometimes referred to as War Knife.
Jens

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
It is sometimes referred to as War Knife.
Jens

Hi Jens/

I was mistaken when I said that I had read something about the meaning of Ayda Katti, it was the anglicised name for the Kavada people , i.e. Coorg, I was getting mixed up with so apologies for that. I seem to have become hooked on the Kavada people at the moment and am looking into their early origins as these may possibly throw a bit more light on the weapon in the sculpture.

I almost forgot, I understood the Pichangetti to be the knife and the Ayda Katti the sword?
Kind regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Migiel,

Yes the Pichangetti is a Coorg utility knife, and can be found if many varities.

I find your interest in the early Coorgs is very/most interesting, and I do hope that you will go on with your research, as very much rsearch still need to be done.

All the best

Jens

[Ian]

Hi Miguel:

You have chosen a very interesting topic with the Kodava (Coorg) people. They are quite distinct from the majority of Indians in their ethnicity and culture, and have a long martial history. They have featured prominently in the Indian military establishment, and I think the C-in-C of the Indian Army was a Coorg not long back. They are known for their martial skills.

Good luck with your research on the origins of these people. There have been many, many theories and several books written on the subject. Perhaps the most colorful notion is that they are descended from some of the troops who fought for Alexander the Great and stayed on in India.

I look forward to reading what you find out.

Regards,

Ian.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Migiel,

Yes the Pichangetti is a Coorg utility knife, and can be found if many varities.

I find your interest in the early Coorgs is very/most interesting, and I do hope that you will go on with your research, as very much rsearch still need to be done.

All the best

Jens

Thanks Jens it is a most interesting subject which will probably take forever and still not be conclusive.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Miguel:

You have chosen a very interesting topic with the Kodava (Coorg) people. They are quite distinct from the majority of Indians in their ethnicity and culture, and have a long martial history. They have featured prominently in the Indian military establishment, and I think the C-in-C of the Indian Army was a Coorg not long back. They are known for their martial skills.

Good luck with your research on the origins of these people. There have been many, many theories and several books written on the subject. Perhaps the most colorful notion is that they are descended from some of the troops who fought for Alexander the Great and stayed on in India.

I look forward to reading what you find out.

Regards,

Ian.

Hi Ian it's a bit like a drug the more you delve the more you want to delve further.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,

I think I have something for you.
Robert Elgood: Hindu Arms and Ritual, page 86, illustrations 8.21, 8.22 and 8.23.
Elgood writes that the pictures are from the Vitthala temple, Hampi early 16th century, and he adds 'it is clear that this kind of sword was in common use over a large part of southern India untill at least the mid-sixteenth century'.
Unfortunately he does not explain why these blades went out of use in the south.

Jens