Before the Ball: Clod Shot of 1375 - the Earliest Lead Gun Ammunition!

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Andi

Don't you think that the newtron-tomographic and radiograpic images of the cannonballs from Mary Rose may also suggest that the lead ball could have been casted arund the iron core? The position of the iron core on the edge of one side of the lead ball indicates to me that it was casted and the iron clod was positioned outside of the centre while laying on the bottom of form. Even when i guess that an experienced metal caster should be able to produce balls with a centered core.

Or is it possible that the emphasis was intentially dislocated from the center of weight? - Bus this wouldn't make any sense to me.

Hi Andi,

There is of course more than one possibility how these iron cores could have been made.
All I can tell with authority is that mine was cast in a mold, and hammering them to such a smooth and perfect surface is just out of my mind (without intending to brag, I got a lot of smithing experience).
I will post images soon though.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The sample from collection, weighing 1 kg and very similar to the bottom image in post #28.

The traces where the mold halves joined are clearly visible, so it was cast.
It weighs 1.2 kg!

Any guesses what the central holes on the six larger sides might have been for?


Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

I bought these pieces a few weeks ago from two seperet metal detector enthausiast.
The first three where found near a castle in Boxmeer, The Netherlands (south east, near the river Maas).

The first one weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25,5mm when measured at the flatened side around the middle. This is the most likely bore caliber.

The second weighs 31grams and is 20mm in diameter.

The third has lost most of its stone core, but some smaller stones remain. It also weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25mm. This one differs from the first one because the first one most likely has just one single piece of stone while the third has multiple smaller stones and woould have acted like shot. A X-ray of some sort could show more evidence.


The fourth piece was found near Deventer, TheNetherlands near the river Ijsel.
It weighs 61 grams and has a 24mm diameter.

[Andi]

Congratulations Marcus!
I also planned to reconstruct such type of ammunition but I am still not sure how to do it.... Are the pebbles cast into the lead or is the lead folded over the stones?

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Andi, thank you i am quit happy with them as well

The surface is mostly smooth with no overlapping lead, so i would say they where integrally cast. They probably selected stones or pieces of stone that would fit within a mould and put those pieces in the mould before pouring the lead in.

There are also a couple of lead balls with an iron core, made in what i supose is the same way. The pieces of metal are not al round, but seem to have corners apart from the heavy oxidation.

[Andi]

Dear Marcus

Thanks for your reply. That sounds logically to me, good to get it confirmed

[batjka]

Looking at the Matchlock's drawing on the top of page 1, the left man has a bore-diameter rod with a thin extension that he stuck through the hole in the projectile.

Matchlock's theory was that the holes in the shot were used to transmit the ignition to the superimposed loads in the barrel. But since you clearly see numerous touch holes in the barrel, it just doesn't make sense. There would be gases escaping from these holes, reducing the pressure and velocity. If Matchlock's theory concerning the center holes in the projectiles was to be believed, the barrel would have had to be solid without any touch holes.

I want to propose another theory - the holes in the shot were used to measure the distance between projectiles to ensure that the powder charges properly line up with the touch holes. That is why the man on the left has a "measuring probe" inserted through the center hole in the clot shot.


I would love to have discussed it with Michael, but unfortunately it is not to be. Hopefully he will get the proper explanation from the real gunners depicted in the drawing up there.

RIP.

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Batjka,

We all are shocked by the loss of our dear friend Michael, the knowledge he provided was always of high quality and insight.

I think you have mixed up his explanation on post 1 and 22. Post one depicts a tillered handgun with multiple touch holes and thus the need for igniting every single shot seperatly.

Post 22 depicts a tillered handgun where there is no touch hole. The shots are fired by igniting the first load on top which travels trough the pieces of clodshot (lead bar shot) and thus firing in rapid succesion all of the inserted pieces.

I hope this explains Michael his posts a bit more.

[batjka]

I was referring to Matchlock's post #10 that in turn refers to the depiction in the post #1.

Post #22 talks about a different depiction which corresponds to the theory he had described.

Still, a question remains, how were the gunners able to load the superimposed loads as to ensure that the touch holes line up with the powder charges. One version is that they had used a ramrod with markings that indicate where each projectile must end up in relation to the muzzle. I had offered another explanation, supported by the depiction in the post #1 - depth probe was inserted through the hole in the projectile and when it touched the front of the projectile below, that's when the gunner knew it's all in the proper position. This makes a lot more sense than to try to tap it from the front, where an accidental extra hit could throw the whole sequence off. The left man on the photo in the post #1 clearly has this "probe" inserted through the projectile ready to load it into the barrel.

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Batjka,

In my previous post i forgot to mention that eventhough the gun in post 1 has more than one touch hole, this would not always mean that every shot where to be ignited seperately. This would not make sense either because we can clearly see the holes in the clodshot. Combined with the knowledge that early gunpowder was indeed fine dust like powder, it is to be expected that the holes filled up automatically when the next load was put in. This makes a chain reaction from the top possible.

As to how the pieces where inserted, i still believe they had to be hammered in to some extend. Medieval barrels where far from smooth and if such a piece of clodshot would just slide in the gas loss would have been enormous.
And maybe they did use some sort of measurment stick to determine if the powder plus shot was fitting in between the two touch holes.

Within this theory it is possible to shoot 1 or 2 or up to 5 shots (post 1 illustration). I don't know of any gun that has multiple touch holes like this, nor of a loaded gun with more than 1 piece of clodshot. Michl had a tillered hand cannon which held 1 shot and a large load of powder. Other than that there are few examples of surviving loaded hand cannons, at least not known to me .

[Marcus den toom]

Kufstein clodshot

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...558#post190558

[Marcus den toom]

Reviving this thread with this 7cm piece of clodshot. Lead with a stone cast together.
Found at the North sea near Northumberland.

[Andi]

Cool - is it yours?

[Marcus den toom]

Yes it is, just like this 4cm one from the same source.

[fernando]

You've got too many of those .

[Marcus den toom]

And even more now
Bought these recently and they are the rare clodshot Michael spoke about. Also a iron core like the one Michael showed us before.

The lead seems to be wrapped around at least one of the balls, but these might just be "scars" in the lead.
The iron cores have been hammered, i think the edges where not broken of but completly hammered this way.