F. de Luzon's Moro Kris Collection - Page 2

Robert · 7th January 2017, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

Hello F. de Luzon, Though the smaller photo in post #24 shows what looks like decorative hawksbill turtle shell plates on the scabbard without being able to see these in person it would be almost impossible to tell if they are real, or faux turtle shell made from bull or buffalo horn or even plastic. All of these materials should be readily available in the Philippines. I would be leary about spending the money usually associated with items made from genuine turtle shell without having it checked by an expert first. I believe that hawksbill are a protected species so if you purchase anything made from their shell (if it is even legal to own there) it would most likely be illegal to export.

Best,
Robert

F. de Luzon · 7th January 2017, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello F. de Luzon, Though the smaller photo in post #24 shows what looks like decorative hawksbill turtle shell plates on the scabbard without being able to see these in person it would be almost impossible to tell if they are real, or faux turtle shell made from bull or buffalo horn or even plastic. All of these materials should be readily available in the Philippines. I would be leary about spending the money usually associated with items made from genuine turtle shell without having it checked by an expert first. I believe that hawksbill are a protected species so if you purchase anything made from their shell (if it is even legal to own there) it would most likely be illegal to export.

Best,
Robert

That is very sound advice Robert. I inquired about the legality of the use of turtle shells from the shop owner and was told that the ones on sale were made in the 1940s-1950s, when it was still legal in the Philippines. Today, it is illegal to use them but the antiques can still be sold.

Now, in light of your comment, I just realized that it may be impossible to distinguish old from new (at least based on pictures). It would thus be most prudent to avoid them to discourage the sale of products made of turtle parts, as well as to avoid the risk of violating the law.

I'm relieved that the inlaid crosspiece on the scabbard that I purchased turned out to be made of horn. Thanks again for your advice. I am taking it very seriously.

F. de Luzon

Spunjer · 7th January 2017, 11:03 AM

welcome, F.!
you have a beautiful collection! i can't add anything else as to what everyone said. all i can say is, happy hunting!
my very first piece came from Davao. i acquired it when i was there. i did stop at some of the antique stores in MM. favorite was Mang Ven's in Ermita. did find some at one of the bigger malls (can't remember the name).
it's all nice to see a new collector!

Sajen · 7th January 2017, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

It would thus be most prudent to avoid them to discourage the sale of products made of turtle parts, as well as to avoid the risk violating the law.

I know that sea turtles get hunted still in Indonesia, of course it's forbidden by law but there is no control. I've seen not long ago on Bali sate from sea turtle on a market and on Halmahera I've seen a lot of sea turtle carapaces, when I told the people that it is forbidden to hunt them they were very surprised.

F. de Luzon · 8th January 2017, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

welcome, F.!
you have a beautiful collection! i can't add anything else as to what everyone said. all i can say is, happy hunting!
my very first piece came from Davao. i acquired it when i was there. i did stop at some of the antique stores in MM. favorite was Mang Ven's in Ermita. did find some at one of the bigger malls (can't remember the name).
it's all nice to see a new collector!

Thanks for the warm welcome and for appreciating my modest collection, Spunjer! Davao and Metro Manila have been my hunting grounds as well. Mang Ven's is also my favorite place. He's a nice guy, very accommodating with lots of interesting stories to tell. I saw your post on the very impressive Maranao blade. I hope to get as lucky as you one day.

F. de Luzon

F. de Luzon · 17th January 2017, 05:02 PM

I etched #4 and had a new scabbard made. The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy. While based on traditional Moro design, the scabbard is in the style of the makers (well known blacksmiths from the Province of Pangasinan) and thus modern.

Here are some pictures showing the condition of the kris at the time of purchase, after initial restoration and finally, after etching. I think it turned out nicely.

Battara · 18th January 2017, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy.

I agree. I have worked with kamagong before as well as narra and paduk (a cousin to narra) and these are not only dense, but they dull steel edges and tools (they have dulled mine for example). I usually see kamagong reserved for Moro hilts.

apolaki · 18th January 2017, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree. I have worked with kamagong before as well as narra and paduk (a cousin to narra) and these are not only dense, but they dull steel edges and tools (they have dulled mine for example). I usually see kamagong reserved for Moro hilts.

Are you familiar with Ipil wood and Molave wood and do know if they are used as well in weaponry or in other contexts?

F. de Luzon · 18th January 2017, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

Are you familiar with Ipil wood and Molave wood and do know if they are used as well in weaponry or in other contexts?

Herbert W. Krieger mentions both types of wood as used in making native weapons in "The Collection of Primitive Weapons and Armor of the Philippine Islands in the United States National Museum" (Washington: 1926, 13). He also mentions molave as material used for war clubs (pp. 46-47)

kai · 18th January 2017, 07:56 PM

Quote:

I etched #4 and had a new scabbard made. The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy. While based on traditional Moro design, the scabbard is in the style of the makers (well known blacksmiths from the Province of Pangasinan) and thus modern.

Nice wood for sure!

IMVHO it may pay to "educate" them on traditional designs for such custom projects. Even if one prefers to keep the additional carving on the crosspiece, it would look much nicer if the base of the crosspiece was flush with the stem (at least in my book - sorry, I'm a stiffler for tradition, I guess

).

Quote:

Here are some pictures showing the condition of the kris at the time of purchase, after initial restoration and finally, after etching. I think it turned out nicely.

Wow, I'm glad that you rescued this kris - the blade did came out very nice!

Could you add some close-ups of the blade for getting a better glimpse on the laminations, please?

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 18th January 2017, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Nice wood for sure!

IMVHO it may pay to "educate" them on traditional designs for such custom projects. Even if one prefers to keep the additional carving on the crosspiece, it would look much nicer if the base of the crosspiece was flush with the stem (at least in my book - sorry, I'm a stiffler for tradition, I guess

).

Wow, I'm glad that you rescued this kris - the blade did came out very nice!

Could you add some close-ups of the blade for getting a better glimpse on the laminations, please?

Regards,
Kai

Hi F. de Luzon,

second all comments from Kai. The wood is nice for sure, the carving well done but it would look much nicer to my eyes when it would have been done in traditional manner.

Best regards,
Detlef

F. de Luzon · 22nd January 2017, 08:09 AM

Hello Kai and Detlef. I completely understand your preference for traditional design. I had this made in the style of the makers because the material used was non-traditional. I just wanted a scabbard made of kamagong (I really like this wood

) If ever I have another scabbard made, it will be as traditional as it can get.

Kai, attached is the photo you requested. Thank you both for your comments!

Regards,

F. de Luzon

F. de Luzon · 26th January 2017, 11:44 AM

I re-etched #5 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22242) and a pattern emerged on the core. Did I over etch? It looks almost like glitter. I wonder if this was intended by its maker.

Ian · 26th January 2017, 04:04 PM

de Luzon:

That's a very good etch that you achieved, and a very unusual pattern that emerged. It's hard to know if the creator of the blade intended it to have such an effect, but some of these guys were really talented at producing specific effects and it's quite possible that this was the intended outcome. Perhaps Roland or one of our other metallurgists can speak to the way this effect was created.

Ian.

Sajen · 26th January 2017, 09:33 PM

What you see is the microcrystalline structure of the metal. It get visible by the etchant you used. By an other etchant it wouldn't be visible like this.

Best regards,
Detlef

F. de Luzon · 28th January 2017, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

What you see is the microcrystalline structure of the metal. It get visible by the etchant you used. By an other etchant it wouldn't be visible like this.

Best regards,
Detlef

Thanks for your comments, Ian and Detlef!

Detlef, I used white cane vinegar (sukang puti) to etch the blade. I was just trying to make the contrast stronger between the metals when the pattern emerged. I felt like I was looking at stars when I wiped off the oxidized metal because of the way it sparkled. But I was also concerned that I may have ruined the blade. Anyway, it looks so much better in person.

F. de Luzon

kai · 28th January 2017, 10:57 AM

I agree that the etch seems perfectly ok - you often see these crystalline structures once the polish is done nicely and the etching accentuates the details of the clean metal surface.

I prefer to use industrial acetic acid because its strength is exactly known and can be diluted for routine use (more reproducible). The advantage of AA being volatile is that it can be completely removed via heating the blade and that it tends to also work on rust in crevices (it helps long-term preservation to remove all active rust). This can lead to some porosity of the blade and you start to see this with the narrow pamor band on each side. IMHO this is not a problem but I'd avoid to etch more (repolishing and re-etching are always an option if the surface gets too rough from over-etching). After a thorough oiling, you can go for sealing with microcristalline wax (which can also be used to close the larger pores if deemed preferable).

Regards,
Kai

F. de Luzon · 28th January 2017, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I agree that the etch seems perfectly ok - you often see these crystalline structures once the polish is done nicely and the etching accentuates the details of the clean metal surface.

I prefer to use industrial acetic acid because its strength is exactly known and can be diluted for routine use (more reproducible). The advantage of AA being volatile is that it can be completely removed via heating the blade and that it tends to also work on rust in crevices (it helps long-term preservation to remove all active rust). This can lead to some porosity of the blade and you start to see this with the narrow pamor band on each side. IMHO this is not a problem but I'd avoid to etch more (repolishing and re-etching are always an option if the surface gets too rough from over-etching). After a thorough oiling, you can go for sealing with microcristalline wax (which can also be used to close the larger pores if deemed preferable).

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for the tips, Kai. I will keep them in mind next time I etch a blade. Much appreciated!

Regards,

F. de Luzon

Sajen · 28th January 2017, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

But I was also concerned that I may have ruined the blade. Anyway, it looks so much better in person.

Hi F. d. Luzon,

don't worry, the outcome is very nice, the blade isn't ruined but look much better as before. It's a nice piece and you have given it the best care!

Regards,
Detlef

F. de Luzon · 30th January 2017, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi F. d. Luzon,

don't worry, the outcome is very nice, the blade isn't ruined but look much better as before. It's a nice piece and you have given it the best care!

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks Detlef!

Regards from Manila,

F. de Luzon

BANDOOK · 30th January 2017, 10:57 AM

Here is another example which does not belong to me,but thought would share it for discussion
regards Rajesh

BANDOOK · 30th January 2017, 11:00 AM

Overall length -68 cms

Battara · 31st January 2017, 01:10 AM

I'm not sure I agree with the information regarding this example.

MOP was not common until the 20th century. Also this form is a 20th century form, not a 19th century form. And then, this type of kris is made in the Sulu region and not Mindanao.

BANDOOK · 31st January 2017, 03:02 AM

Thanks Battara
Its good to know that,i don't collect these weapons so good for my knowledge
Regards Rajesh

Ian · 3rd February 2017, 11:58 PM

Agree with Jose's dating for the same reasons he gives. The kris shown by VANDOO is a mid- to late-20th C. example in Sulu dress. These are readily found in antique shops in Manila or online. Although well made and from the original culture, I suspect they are produced mainly for sale to foreigners who travel.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm not sure I agree with the information regarding this example.

MOP was not common until the 20th century. Also this form is a 20th century form, not a 19th century form. And then, this type of kris is made in the Sulu region and not Mindanao.

Battara · 4th February 2017, 12:10 AM

Ian is right. I will only add that some of these recent Sulu examples may be even laminated on occasion. I know this because I bought one years ago and it was laminated. Admittedly, that was probably made in the 1960s. Pieces coming out of the region today are more often mono-steel.

Rick · 4th February 2017, 02:46 AM

I had a small, child size kris of this vintage; two stirrups, silver but undecorated w/out any engraving on the blade. Same hilt, same knot work wrap.
I posted it here but can't find the old post with the search function.

It was a very sharp blade and competently formed; I believe I sold it to Lew some years ago before he passed on.

I miss Lew.

F. de Luzon · 11th February 2017, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

Here is another example which does not belong to me,but thought would share it for discussion
regards Rajesh

Thanks for sharing, Rajesh!

F. de Luzon · 11th February 2017, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I had a small, child size kris of this vintage; two stirrups, silver but undecorated w/out any engraving on the blade. Same hilt, same knot work wrap.
I posted it here but can't find the old post with the search function.

It was a very sharp blade and competently formed; I believe I sold it to Lew some years ago before he passed on.

I miss Lew.

Thanks for your comment Rick.

I have a kris that is smaller than the others in my collection and I've always wondered if it was a child's kris. The blade is only 17.5 inches long (44.5 cm) and the width is proportionate to the length. Below is a photo for your reference.

Please share your thoughts.

Ian · 11th February 2017, 10:58 PM

F. de Luzon:

Another nice kris. Not all small kris are necessarily children's kris. We should not forgot that some Moro women fought beside their husbands, brothers and fathers. I'm inclined to think some of these slightly shorter and slimmer versions may have been meant for women. Also, many of the older kris (pre-1800) were shorter and slimmer than those of 19th C Mindanao. I'm not suggesting that your smaller example is earlier than the 19th C, but we should not think that all short, slim kris were designed for children--they were definitely weapons and could be used as such by adults.

Attached below is an example of an 18th C. kris that is similar in length to your shorter example.

Ian.

----------------Attachment--18th C Moro kris------------------

.

17th January 2017, 05:02 PM	#36
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	#4 Etching and New Scabbard I etched #4 and had a new scabbard made. The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy. While based on traditional Moro design, the scabbard is in the style of the makers (well known blacksmiths from the Province of Pangasinan) and thus modern. Here are some pictures showing the condition of the kris at the time of purchase, after initial restoration and finally, after etching. I think it turned out nicely. Attached Images Last edited by F. de Luzon; 18th January 2017 at 01:02 AM.

22nd January 2017, 08:09 AM	#42
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Hello Kai and Detlef. I completely understand your preference for traditional design. I had this made in the style of the makers because the material used was non-traditional. I just wanted a scabbard made of kamagong (I really like this wood ) If ever I have another scabbard made, it will be as traditional as it can get. Kai, attached is the photo you requested. Thank you both for your comments! Regards, F. de Luzon Attached Images

26th January 2017, 11:44 AM	#43
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Re-etched #5 I re-etched #5 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22242) and a pattern emerged on the core. Did I over etch? It looks almost like glitter. I wonder if this was intended by its maker. Attached Images

30th January 2017, 10:57 AM	#51
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	ANOTHER 19th century Moro Sondang -Mindano region Here is another example which does not belong to me,but thought would share it for discussion regards Rajesh Attached Images

11th February 2017, 10:58 PM	#60
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	F. de Luzon: Another nice kris. Not all small kris are necessarily children's kris. We should not forgot that some Moro women fought beside their husbands, brothers and fathers. I'm inclined to think some of these slightly shorter and slimmer versions may have been meant for women. Also, many of the older kris (pre-1800) were shorter and slimmer than those of 19th C Mindanao. I'm not suggesting that your smaller example is earlier than the 19th C, but we should not think that all short, slim kris were designed for children--they were definitely weapons and could be used as such by adults. Attached below is an example of an 18th C. kris that is similar in length to your shorter example. Ian. ----------------Attachment--18th C Moro kris------------------ . Attached Images

7th January 2017, 11:03 AM	#33
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	welcome, F.! you have a beautiful collection! i can't add anything else as to what everyone said. all i can say is, happy hunting! my very first piece came from Davao. i acquired it when i was there. i did stop at some of the antique stores in MM. favorite was Mang Ven's in Ermita. did find some at one of the bigger malls (can't remember the name). it's all nice to see a new collector!

26th January 2017, 04:04 PM	#44
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	de Luzon: That's a very good etch that you achieved, and a very unusual pattern that emerged. It's hard to know if the creator of the blade intended it to have such an effect, but some of these guys were really talented at producing specific effects and it's quite possible that this was the intended outcome. Perhaps Roland or one of our other metallurgists can speak to the way this effect was created. Ian.

26th January 2017, 09:33 PM	#45
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	What you see is the microcrystalline structure of the metal. It get visible by the etchant you used. By an other etchant it wouldn't be visible like this. Best regards, Detlef

28th January 2017, 10:57 AM	#47
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	I agree that the etch seems perfectly ok - you often see these crystalline structures once the polish is done nicely and the etching accentuates the details of the clean metal surface. I prefer to use industrial acetic acid because its strength is exactly known and can be diluted for routine use (more reproducible). The advantage of AA being volatile is that it can be completely removed via heating the blade and that it tends to also work on rust in crevices (it helps long-term preservation to remove all active rust). This can lead to some porosity of the blade and you start to see this with the narrow pamor band on each side. IMHO this is not a problem but I'd avoid to etch more (repolishing and re-etching are always an option if the surface gets too rough from over-etching). After a thorough oiling, you can go for sealing with microcristalline wax (which can also be used to close the larger pores if deemed preferable). Regards, Kai

30th January 2017, 11:00 AM	#52
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	Overall length -68 cms

31st January 2017, 01:10 AM	#53
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I'm not sure I agree with the information regarding this example. MOP was not common until the 20th century. Also this form is a 20th century form, not a 19th century form. And then, this type of kris is made in the Sulu region and not Mindanao.

31st January 2017, 03:02 AM	#54
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	Thanks Battara Its good to know that,i don't collect these weapons so good for my knowledge Regards Rajesh

4th February 2017, 12:10 AM	#56
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Ian is right. I will only add that some of these recent Sulu examples may be even laminated on occasion. I know this because I bought one years ago and it was laminated. Admittedly, that was probably made in the 1960s. Pieces coming out of the region today are more often mono-steel.

4th February 2017, 02:46 AM	#57
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I had a small, child size kris of this vintage; two stirrups, silver but undecorated w/out any engraving on the blade. Same hilt, same knot work wrap. I posted it here but can't find the old post with the search function. It was a very sharp blade and competently formed; I believe I sold it to Lew some years ago before he passed on. I miss Lew.