dagger series nr4 THE BALLOCK - Page 2

cornelistromp · 1st October 2015, 08:10 PM

i have absolutely no idea what you want to say with the above and I find the given internet links far from sufficient reference.

in order to avoid further unnecessary discussion, I rest my case.

best wishes
jasper

fernando · 1st October 2015, 08:43 PM

Let us lock this thread for a little while.

fernando · 1st October 2015, 11:33 PM

Thread reopened.
Please carry on, Gentlemen.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd October 2015, 12:27 PM

Looking for Dutch variants...From The Encyclopedia Britannica... Quote"Frans Hals, (born 1581/85, Antwerp, Spanish Netherlands [now in Belgium]—died Aug. 29, 1666, Haarlem, Neth.), great 17th-century portraitist of the Dutch bourgeoisie of Haarlem, where he spent practically all his life. Hals evolved a technique that was close to Impressionism in its looseness, and he painted with increasing freedom as he grew older. The jovial spirit of his early work is typified by The Merry Company (c. 1616–17). In his middle age his portraits grew increasingly sad, revealing sometimes a sense of foreboding (e.g., Nicolaes Hasselaer, c. 1630–33). The paintings of his old age best show his genius for portraying character (e.g., Man in a Slouch Hat, c. 1660–66)".Unquote.

Although no Ballack daggers appear in this picture it gives the atmospheric impression that they are all wearing one !! and as a background reference on the sword style and dress; this gives a wonderful sense of the occasion...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd October 2015, 12:40 PM

To get the perspective right I have noted below the connection in parts of Northern Europe where the Ballack and other daggers developed. Finally this short note encompasses the development into the Scottish Dirk and from these notes you can see how that happened. This storyline takes the dagger up to the link with another part of its development creating a doorstep to... "The Bayonet".

Quote"Middle Ages.
(Further information: Misericorde (weapon) and Rondel dagger)
The term dagger appears only in the Late Middle Ages, reflecting the fact that while the dagger had been known in antiquity, it had disappeared during the Early Middle Ages, replaced by the hewing knife or seax.

Depiction of combat with the dagger (degen) in Hans Talhoffer (1467)
The dagger reappeared in the 12th century as the "knightly dagger", or more properly cross-hilt or quillon dagger, and was developed into a common arm and tool for civilian use by the late medieval period.

The earliest known depiction of a cross-hilt dagger is the so-called "Guido relief" inside the Grossmünster of Zürich (c. 1120). A number of depictions of the fully developed cross-hilt dagger are found in the Morgan Bible (c. 1240). Many of these cross-hilt daggers resemble miniature swords, with cross guards and pommels very similar in form to swords of the period. Others, however, are not an exact match to known sword designs, having for example pommel caps, large hollow star shaped pommels on so-called “Burgundian Heraldic daggers” or antenna style cross and pommel, reminiscent of Hallstatt era daggers. The cross-hilt type persisted well into the Renaissance.

The Old French term dague appears to have referred to these weapons in the 13th century, alongside other terms such as poignal and basilard. The Middle English dagger is used from the 1380s.

During this time, the dagger was often employed in the role of a secondary defense weapon in close combat. The knightly dagger evolved into the larger baselard knife in the 14th century. The baselard was considered an intermediate between a short sword and a long dagger, and became popular also as a civilian weapon. Sloane MS. 2593 (c. 1400) records a song satirizing the use of oversized baselard knives as fashion accessories.

In the Late Middle Ages, knives with blade designs that emphasized thrusting attacks, such as the stiletto, became increasingly popular, and some thrusting knives commonly referred to as 'daggers' ceased to have a cutting edge. This was a response to the deployment of heavy armor, such as maille and plate armour, where cutting attacks were ineffective and focus was on thrusts with narrow blades to punch through mail or aim at armour plate intersections (or the eye slits of the helmet visor). These late medieval thrusting weapons are sometimes classed by the shape of their hilt as either roundel, bollock or ear daggers. The term dagger is coined in this time, as are the Early Modern German equivalents dolch (tolch) and degen (tegen). In the German school of fencing, Johannes Liechtenauer (Ms. 3227a) and his successors (specifically Andres Lignizer in Cod. 44 A 8) taught fighting with the dagger.

These techniques in some respects resemble modern knife fighting, but emphasized thrusting strokes almost exclusively, instead of slashes and cuts. When used offensively, a standard attack frequently employed the reverse or icepick grip, stabbing downward with the blade to increase thrust and penetrative force. This was done primarily because the blade point frequently had to penetrate or push apart an opponent's steel chain mail or plate armor in order to inflict an injury. The disadvantage of employing the medieval dagger in this manner was that it could easily be blocked by a variety of techniques, most notably by a block with the weaponless arm while simultaneously attacking with a weapon held in the right hand. Another disadvantage was the reduction in effective blade reach to the opponent when using a reverse grip. As the wearing of armor fell out of favor, dagger fighting techniques began to evolve which emphasized the use of the dagger with a conventional or forward grip, while the reverse or icepick grip was retained when attacking an unsuspecting opponent from behind, such as in an assassination.

Renaissance and Early Modern era.
Further information: Stiletto, Parrying dagger and Dirk.

The dagger was very popular as a fencing and personal defense weapon in 17th- and 18th-century Spain, where it was referred to as the daga or puñal. During the Renaissance Age the dagger was used as part of everyday dress, and daggers were the only weapon commoners were allowed to carry on their person. In English, the terms poniard and dirk are loaned during the late 16th to early 17th century, the latter in the spelling dork, durk (presumably via Low German, Dutch or Scandinavian dolk, dolch, ultimately from a West Slavic tulich), the modern spelling dirk dating to 18th-century Scots".Unquote

Here are some dagger pictures from http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.18843.html

fernando · 2nd October 2015, 12:58 PM

Ibrahiim, you ae not reading the PM i sent you

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd October 2015, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Ibrahiim, you ae not reading the PM i sent you

There is no PM on my system...please resend...

fernando · 2nd October 2015, 02:01 PM

PM resent

cornelistromp · 2nd October 2015, 04:26 PM

re post 35
in the first quarter of the 17th century was the ballock dagger no longer in use but the left hand guillon dagger was used in combination with the rapier.

re post 36
this is 100% plagiarism, one on one copy and paste from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger

please see it as spam.

I really have a problem with people who besides have read poorly in the subject, post quantity, most of the time blind copy and paste images and text from internet, rather than quality.
it is unfortunate that qualitatively interesting threads will get a little infected by these spam.

nevertheless I will persevere and I'm going to start a new thread about the successor of this archetype ballock dagger.
It is also a ballock dagger with sharp angular lines in the grip and the "testicles", a development that emerged in the Gothic architecture in the second half of the 15th century.
I do not hope that fellow forum members are put off by the above, any sincere interested reaction and questions are more than welcome.

hope we can put the spam filter on.

best,
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2015, 09:56 PM

This thread is genuinely fascinating as I had not ever thought particularly about the ballock dagger being specifically differentiated regionally as a form. Apparently this is quite the case with these early examples shown by Jasper, and perhaps the thread might have been better titled 'Early ballock dagger forms from the Netherlands'.

It is most interesting to see more on the ballock dagger overall and in the forms outside this scope as well as other developments into associated dagger forms. Honestly I had not thought of the Highland dirk being indirectly descended from these kinds of daggers, and see the stylizing of the hilt reflecting the form.

2nd October 2015, 12:27 PM	#34
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Looking for Dutch variants...From The Encyclopedia Britannica... Quote"Frans Hals, (born 1581/85, Antwerp, Spanish Netherlands [now in Belgium]—died Aug. 29, 1666, Haarlem, Neth.), great 17th-century portraitist of the Dutch bourgeoisie of Haarlem, where he spent practically all his life. Hals evolved a technique that was close to Impressionism in its looseness, and he painted with increasing freedom as he grew older. The jovial spirit of his early work is typified by The Merry Company (c. 1616–17). In his middle age his portraits grew increasingly sad, revealing sometimes a sense of foreboding (e.g., Nicolaes Hasselaer, c. 1630–33). The paintings of his old age best show his genius for portraying character (e.g., Man in a Slouch Hat, c. 1660–66)".Unquote. Although no Ballack daggers appear in this picture it gives the atmospheric impression that they are all wearing one !! and as a background reference on the sword style and dress; this gives a wonderful sense of the occasion... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd October 2015 at 12:43 PM.

2nd October 2015, 12:40 PM	#35
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	To get the perspective right I have noted below the connection in parts of Northern Europe where the Ballack and other daggers developed. Finally this short note encompasses the development into the Scottish Dirk and from these notes you can see how that happened. This storyline takes the dagger up to the link with another part of its development creating a doorstep to... "The Bayonet". Quote"Middle Ages. (Further information: Misericorde (weapon) and Rondel dagger) The term dagger appears only in the Late Middle Ages, reflecting the fact that while the dagger had been known in antiquity, it had disappeared during the Early Middle Ages, replaced by the hewing knife or seax. Depiction of combat with the dagger (degen) in Hans Talhoffer (1467) The dagger reappeared in the 12th century as the "knightly dagger", or more properly cross-hilt or quillon dagger, and was developed into a common arm and tool for civilian use by the late medieval period. The earliest known depiction of a cross-hilt dagger is the so-called "Guido relief" inside the Grossmünster of Zürich (c. 1120). A number of depictions of the fully developed cross-hilt dagger are found in the Morgan Bible (c. 1240). Many of these cross-hilt daggers resemble miniature swords, with cross guards and pommels very similar in form to swords of the period. Others, however, are not an exact match to known sword designs, having for example pommel caps, large hollow star shaped pommels on so-called “Burgundian Heraldic daggers” or antenna style cross and pommel, reminiscent of Hallstatt era daggers. The cross-hilt type persisted well into the Renaissance. The Old French term dague appears to have referred to these weapons in the 13th century, alongside other terms such as poignal and basilard. The Middle English dagger is used from the 1380s. During this time, the dagger was often employed in the role of a secondary defense weapon in close combat. The knightly dagger evolved into the larger baselard knife in the 14th century. The baselard was considered an intermediate between a short sword and a long dagger, and became popular also as a civilian weapon. Sloane MS. 2593 (c. 1400) records a song satirizing the use of oversized baselard knives as fashion accessories. In the Late Middle Ages, knives with blade designs that emphasized thrusting attacks, such as the stiletto, became increasingly popular, and some thrusting knives commonly referred to as 'daggers' ceased to have a cutting edge. This was a response to the deployment of heavy armor, such as maille and plate armour, where cutting attacks were ineffective and focus was on thrusts with narrow blades to punch through mail or aim at armour plate intersections (or the eye slits of the helmet visor). These late medieval thrusting weapons are sometimes classed by the shape of their hilt as either roundel, bollock or ear daggers. The term dagger is coined in this time, as are the Early Modern German equivalents dolch (tolch) and degen (tegen). In the German school of fencing, Johannes Liechtenauer (Ms. 3227a) and his successors (specifically Andres Lignizer in Cod. 44 A 8) taught fighting with the dagger. These techniques in some respects resemble modern knife fighting, but emphasized thrusting strokes almost exclusively, instead of slashes and cuts. When used offensively, a standard attack frequently employed the reverse or icepick grip, stabbing downward with the blade to increase thrust and penetrative force. This was done primarily because the blade point frequently had to penetrate or push apart an opponent's steel chain mail or plate armor in order to inflict an injury. The disadvantage of employing the medieval dagger in this manner was that it could easily be blocked by a variety of techniques, most notably by a block with the weaponless arm while simultaneously attacking with a weapon held in the right hand. Another disadvantage was the reduction in effective blade reach to the opponent when using a reverse grip. As the wearing of armor fell out of favor, dagger fighting techniques began to evolve which emphasized the use of the dagger with a conventional or forward grip, while the reverse or icepick grip was retained when attacking an unsuspecting opponent from behind, such as in an assassination. Renaissance and Early Modern era. Further information: Stiletto, Parrying dagger and Dirk. The dagger was very popular as a fencing and personal defense weapon in 17th- and 18th-century Spain, where it was referred to as the daga or puñal. During the Renaissance Age the dagger was used as part of everyday dress, and daggers were the only weapon commoners were allowed to carry on their person. In English, the terms poniard and dirk are loaned during the late 16th to early 17th century, the latter in the spelling dork, durk (presumably via Low German, Dutch or Scandinavian dolk, dolch, ultimately from a West Slavic tulich), the modern spelling dirk dating to 18th-century Scots".Unquote Here are some dagger pictures from http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.18843.html Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd October 2015 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Having missed the quotation marks.

1st October 2015, 08:10 PM	#31
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	i have absolutely no idea what you want to say with the above and I find the given internet links far from sufficient reference. in order to avoid further unnecessary discussion, I rest my case. best wishes jasper

1st October 2015, 08:43 PM	#32
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let us lock this thread for a little while.

1st October 2015, 11:33 PM	#33
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thread reopened. Please carry on, Gentlemen.

2nd October 2015, 12:58 PM	#36
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ibrahiim, you ae not reading the PM i sent you

2nd October 2015, 02:01 PM	#38
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	PM resent

2nd October 2015, 04:26 PM	#39
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	re post 35 in the first quarter of the 17th century was the ballock dagger no longer in use but the left hand guillon dagger was used in combination with the rapier. re post 36 this is 100% plagiarism, one on one copy and paste from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger please see it as spam. I really have a problem with people who besides have read poorly in the subject, post quantity, most of the time blind copy and paste images and text from internet, rather than quality. it is unfortunate that qualitatively interesting threads will get a little infected by these spam. nevertheless I will persevere and I'm going to start a new thread about the successor of this archetype ballock dagger. It is also a ballock dagger with sharp angular lines in the grip and the "testicles", a development that emerged in the Gothic architecture in the second half of the 15th century. I do not hope that fellow forum members are put off by the above, any sincere interested reaction and questions are more than welcome. hope we can put the spam filter on. best, Jasper

2nd October 2015, 09:56 PM	#40
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	This thread is genuinely fascinating as I had not ever thought particularly about the ballock dagger being specifically differentiated regionally as a form. Apparently this is quite the case with these early examples shown by Jasper, and perhaps the thread might have been better titled 'Early ballock dagger forms from the Netherlands'. It is most interesting to see more on the ballock dagger overall and in the forms outside this scope as well as other developments into associated dagger forms. Honestly I had not thought of the Highland dirk being indirectly descended from these kinds of daggers, and see the stylizing of the hilt reflecting the form.