Iraq Dagger - Page 2

Aurangzeb · 1st November 2005, 10:55 PM

Just relised it shows a little Tuareg influence, just a little.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 2nd November 2005, 09:17 PM

Hello all!

I found some Tuareg silver jewlery with a similer 'X' motif on it I will post links when I find it again, but chould this really be Tuareg? I never saw a any curved Tuareg weapons so I am very confuesed.

I really hope someone out there in forum land is sure where yhis came from, this is driving me crazy!

Mayday Mayday this thread is going down like a lead rake!

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 3rd November 2005, 03:02 AM

A Link to a similer dagger.

http://www.natashascafe.com/html/tknives1.html

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 4th November 2005, 04:32 AM

Chould it be Tuareg, Malian, or Mauritanian?

I will not let this thread die easily.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 4th November 2005, 11:04 PM

Hi All!

Found a link on Oriental-Arms with a tokouba with a similer pattern on it's hilt.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=606

Mark...

TVV · 4th November 2005, 11:48 PM

Hi Mark, while I cannot contribute any further to this thread, I just want to point out that one of the many fascinating things about ethnographic weapons is that some examples are hard to pin to a particular geographic region. I would guess everyone of us has in his/her possession at least one dagger that is hard to classify.
Right now it is obvious noone here can help you identify the origin of this dagger, but maybe later on some information will surface. What I like most about geographic edged weapons is that each is pretty much unique, and unlike bayonets for example, there is no textbook with patterns and models to tell you exactly where and when a certain piece was produced.

Aurangzeb · 5th November 2005, 02:21 AM

Hello TVV!

As iratating as it is trying to find out where this dagger came from, I will admit that because of it I learned more about the tuaregs, The Mali Empire, West Africa, and Mansa Musa. As Ali ibn Abi-Talib said "There is no whealth like knoledge, no poverty like ignorance" Also the mystery of this dagger makes it all the more facentating, one day I will find out where this dagger is from. As I find more evidence of this dagger I will post it, identifying this dagger has become my latest 'Crusade'!

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 5th November 2005, 10:35 PM

Hello All!

I spent most of today looking for more things about this dagger, I found it. I now feel beyond a resonable doubt that it has a Tuareg origen. So far I have seen a Takouba and a Telek with the exact same pattern of the "X" and line pattern. I have posted the takouba link before but heres the Telek link. I have been using Oriental-Arms as a main resource for comparisons. This chould mean that the Tuareg did/do use jambiyas.

Mark...

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1359

and a limk to an old thread.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000031.html

Aurangzeb · 8th November 2005, 02:16 AM

Here is an old thread I found the first arm dagger shown shows a similer pattern, perhaps it's origen is Egypt. Just thrownig ideas into the pool.

Mark...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=Sudan

Aurangzeb · 27th December 2005, 09:36 PM

Hello All!

On page 96 figure 56C in the book "Islamic Weapons Maghreb to Moghul" is a dagger that is identified as Palestinian and bers a resemblance some what to my dagger. I still feal North African though.

Mark...

Tim Simmons · 27th December 2005, 09:44 PM

Mark, I admire your spirit not accepting orthodoxy or apathy your research will pay off in time. Tim

Aurangzeb · 27th December 2005, 10:23 PM

Hello Tim!

Thank you for the compliment. I am of Russian/Cossack decent, my grandfather says thats why I am stubborn and determined!

I will continue to place this to a place and post here as I do.

Mark...

Radu Transylvanicus · 9th January 2006, 09:56 AM

In admiration to your persuasiveness in this quest for truth here is my humble opinion for what is worth:
It clearly stands out as a crude copy of a Jambyia. That being given and the similarity with the craftsmanship of the solid brass grip "Telek" the Touareg version of the "arm dagger" and the African blades, I would say its belongs to the Touareg or at least to an Islamic black tribe of the Sub-Sahara.
I looked also at the Tirri's book but I would always be careful when considering him for the final verdict. If to consider his book take a look rather at page 54 (# 30) and 56 (# 32A) on the Touareg section instead of the so called Palestinian dagger.

Also the option of a simple "souvenir market" with no blue blood is a solid posibility

.

Aurangzeb · 10th January 2006, 01:37 AM

Hello Radu!

You have a point about Tuareg or sub-Saharen africa. I am almost definatly sure it is not tourest, the blade is nice, thick, and sharp and relativly well reforged from a file and seems as a using piece. The grip is the crudest part of it.

Mark...

P.S.-Just bought a nice kindjal off Therion-Arms and will post this less "mysterious" dagger soon.

Aurangzeb · 27th January 2006, 05:27 AM

Chould it be from the Comoros Islands? The reason for my continuous posting is mainly to use this thread to keep trck of ideas and theoys on this Knife due to my short term memory loss problem. Also is this idea possible or just a crazy idea.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 28th January 2006, 02:22 AM

Will someone tell me if my idea is possible or just crazy?

Aurangzeb · 31st January 2006, 01:02 AM

Sudan???? I found a very similer dagger on a website but I do not know if I can post a link to a item that is for sale.

Mark...

Oriental-Arms · 31st January 2006, 10:39 PM

Gentlemen

Sorry to come in so late, but I am afraid it is indeed a Palestinian dagger coming from the Northern parts of Israel / Palestine or south Syria. It may be mix of several daggers common to the area.

Generally the blades in daggers from the region covering Palestine, Israel, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon are divided into two main categories:

The Shyibria type with the re-curving blade (few examples shown above) which is common to the southern parts of Israel, to Jordan and to the Sinai peninsula

The Khanjar type, with the single curved blade, common to the northern parts of this region: North of Israel, South of Syria and Lebanon.

In both categories the handle will be of the standard “I” shaped, but made of whatever possible material found: wood, horn, bone, brass or any other metal, and the pommel in a variety of shapes: round, half round, triangular, slightly square and whatever the local maker had in mind when he produced the dagger.

A week ago, I have noticed in a small Israeli forum on Ethnographic weapons ( Unfortunately in Hebrew) a thread on this dagger:

It was collected in the 1973 war between Israel and Syria in a small village (Jubata el Hasheb, now in the international boundaries of Syria). The blade is in a shameful condition, the scabbard is a later scabbard of a Magdali Khanjar (this village is only 7 miles north of Magdal Shams, were the Magdali daggers were made), but the brass handle has a sticking similarity to the one posted above.

Hope this resolves the mystery

(Thanks to Mr. I. Meyuchas, who collected this dagger and was kind enough to allow me to post it here)

Aurangzeb · 31st January 2006, 11:21 PM

Hello Artzi!

better late than never!

Thank you so much for resolving this mystery. I can't thank you enough.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 2nd February 2006, 12:47 AM

Almost forgot is this a khanjar of jambiya, or are they the same thing?

Mark...

5th November 2005, 10:35 PM	#38
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	New evidence of Tuareg Origen!!!!! Hello All! I spent most of today looking for more things about this dagger, I found it. I now feel beyond a resonable doubt that it has a Tuareg origen. So far I have seen a Takouba and a Telek with the exact same pattern of the "X" and line pattern. I have posted the takouba link before but heres the Telek link. I have been using Oriental-Arms as a main resource for comparisons. This chould mean that the Tuareg did/do use jambiyas. Mark... http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1359 and a limk to an old thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000031.html

9th January 2006, 09:56 AM	#43
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	INMHO to Aurangzeb In admiration to your persuasiveness in this quest for truth here is my humble opinion for what is worth: It clearly stands out as a crude copy of a Jambyia. That being given and the similarity with the craftsmanship of the solid brass grip "Telek" the Touareg version of the "arm dagger" and the African blades, I would say its belongs to the Touareg or at least to an Islamic black tribe of the Sub-Sahara. I looked also at the Tirri's book but I would always be careful when considering him for the final verdict. If to consider his book take a look rather at page 54 (# 30) and 56 (# 32A) on the Touareg section instead of the so called Palestinian dagger. Also the option of a simple "souvenir market" with no blue blood is a solid posibility . Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 9th January 2006 at 12:00 PM.

27th January 2006, 05:27 AM	#45
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Chould it be from the Comoros Islands? The reason for my continuous posting is mainly to use this thread to keep trck of ideas and theoys on this Knife due to my short term memory loss problem. Also is this idea possible or just a crazy idea. Mark... Last edited by Aurangzeb; 27th January 2006 at 11:07 PM.

31st January 2006, 01:02 AM	#47
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Sudan???? I found a very similer dagger on a website but I do not know if I can post a link to a item that is for sale. Mark... Last edited by Aurangzeb; 31st January 2006 at 02:42 AM.

31st January 2006, 10:39 PM	#48
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Palestinian dagger Gentlemen Sorry to come in so late, but I am afraid it is indeed a Palestinian dagger coming from the Northern parts of Israel / Palestine or south Syria. It may be mix of several daggers common to the area. Generally the blades in daggers from the region covering Palestine, Israel, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon are divided into two main categories: The Shyibria type with the re-curving blade (few examples shown above) which is common to the southern parts of Israel, to Jordan and to the Sinai peninsula The Khanjar type, with the single curved blade, common to the northern parts of this region: North of Israel, South of Syria and Lebanon. In both categories the handle will be of the standard “I” shaped, but made of whatever possible material found: wood, horn, bone, brass or any other metal, and the pommel in a variety of shapes: round, half round, triangular, slightly square and whatever the local maker had in mind when he produced the dagger. A week ago, I have noticed in a small Israeli forum on Ethnographic weapons ( Unfortunately in Hebrew) a thread on this dagger: It was collected in the 1973 war between Israel and Syria in a small village (Jubata el Hasheb, now in the international boundaries of Syria). The blade is in a shameful condition, the scabbard is a later scabbard of a Magdali Khanjar (this village is only 7 miles north of Magdal Shams, were the Magdali daggers were made), but the brass handle has a sticking similarity to the one posted above. Hope this resolves the mystery (Thanks to Mr. I. Meyuchas, who collected this dagger and was kind enough to allow me to post it here)

1st November 2005, 10:55 PM	#31
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Just relised it shows a little Tuareg influence, just a little. Mark...

2nd November 2005, 09:17 PM	#32
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello all! I found some Tuareg silver jewlery with a similer 'X' motif on it I will post links when I find it again, but chould this really be Tuareg? I never saw a any curved Tuareg weapons so I am very confuesed. I really hope someone out there in forum land is sure where yhis came from, this is driving me crazy! Mayday Mayday this thread is going down like a lead rake! Mark...

3rd November 2005, 03:02 AM	#33
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	A Link to a similer dagger. http://www.natashascafe.com/html/tknives1.html Mark...

4th November 2005, 04:32 AM	#34
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Chould it be Tuareg, Malian, or Mauritanian? I will not let this thread die easily. Mark...

4th November 2005, 11:04 PM	#35
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi All! Found a link on Oriental-Arms with a tokouba with a similer pattern on it's hilt. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=606 Mark...

4th November 2005, 11:48 PM	#36
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Hi Mark, while I cannot contribute any further to this thread, I just want to point out that one of the many fascinating things about ethnographic weapons is that some examples are hard to pin to a particular geographic region. I would guess everyone of us has in his/her possession at least one dagger that is hard to classify. Right now it is obvious noone here can help you identify the origin of this dagger, but maybe later on some information will surface. What I like most about geographic edged weapons is that each is pretty much unique, and unlike bayonets for example, there is no textbook with patterns and models to tell you exactly where and when a certain piece was produced.

5th November 2005, 02:21 AM	#37
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello TVV! As iratating as it is trying to find out where this dagger came from, I will admit that because of it I learned more about the tuaregs, The Mali Empire, West Africa, and Mansa Musa. As Ali ibn Abi-Talib said "There is no whealth like knoledge, no poverty like ignorance" Also the mystery of this dagger makes it all the more facentating, one day I will find out where this dagger is from. As I find more evidence of this dagger I will post it, identifying this dagger has become my latest 'Crusade'! Mark...

8th November 2005, 02:16 AM	#39
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Here is an old thread I found the first arm dagger shown shows a similer pattern, perhaps it's origen is Egypt. Just thrownig ideas into the pool. Mark... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=Sudan

27th December 2005, 09:36 PM	#40
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! On page 96 figure 56C in the book "Islamic Weapons Maghreb to Moghul" is a dagger that is identified as Palestinian and bers a resemblance some what to my dagger. I still feal North African though. Mark...

27th December 2005, 09:44 PM	#41
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Mark, I admire your spirit not accepting orthodoxy or apathy your research will pay off in time. Tim

27th December 2005, 10:23 PM	#42
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Tim! Thank you for the compliment. I am of Russian/Cossack decent, my grandfather says thats why I am stubborn and determined! I will continue to place this to a place and post here as I do. Mark...

10th January 2006, 01:37 AM	#44
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Radu! You have a point about Tuareg or sub-Saharen africa. I am almost definatly sure it is not tourest, the blade is nice, thick, and sharp and relativly well reforged from a file and seems as a using piece. The grip is the crudest part of it. Mark... P.S.-Just bought a nice kindjal off Therion-Arms and will post this less "mysterious" dagger soon.

28th January 2006, 02:22 AM	#46
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Will someone tell me if my idea is possible or just crazy?

31st January 2006, 11:21 PM	#49
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Artzi! better late than never! Thank you so much for resolving this mystery. I can't thank you enough. Mark...

2nd February 2006, 12:47 AM	#50
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Almost forgot is this a khanjar of jambiya, or are they the same thing? Mark...